update of asset forfeiture laws

[user 37446]

There have been several threads over the years on the topic of asset forfeiture, where a police officer searches your vehicle and seizes what he/she believes to be excess cash (mostly) or other "contraband" from you without any criminal conviction.  

Say you were going to buy a van in another state and you have several thousand in cash, because it's better to "flash the cash" in front of the buyer (in a safe area of course) to negotiate them down.  Then an officer stops you (on the road) for a real or imagined traffic violation. He asks you if you have anything like a lot of cash, guns etc.  Or he asks you if he can look inside.  You believe you are completely innocent and agree.  He finds the cash and confiscates it.  :huh:

In the past you generally lose the money with little to no recourse.  Google search "asset fordeiture" and your head will spin at some of the documented abuses.  To be sure, there was some drug money that was seized, I mean, how many people have a couple hundred grand in a briefcase in their van, right?   :-/ 

This is now changing due to the outcry of wronged citizens..

The news I read today had an article on the reforms to state laws. Here's the link:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...gress-police-over-civil-asset-forfeiture.html

and a summary quote:

 "With the issue of civil forfeitures just now gaining traction in the halls of Congress, some states have already taken it into their hands to clamp down on the practice. Since 2014, more than 20 states and Washington, D.C., have enacted laws either limiting forfeiture or making the process more transparent.


New Mexico now requires a criminal conviction before any property is seized, and police in Florida need to prove “beyond reasonable doubt” that property was linked to a crime before it’s seized. Arizona raised the burden on law enforcement to prove property was used in a crime from a preponderance of evidence to clear and convincing evidence, while Mississippi passed a law enacting a slew of provisions aimed at bringing more transparency to the practice.

“There has really been a groundswell of momentum to reform these laws over the past two years,” Sheth said."

 

[Florida boondocker]

Or he asks you if he can look inside.  You believe you are completely innocent and agree.

in my honest opinion it's VERY IMPORTANT never to waive your rights

if i am stopped for any reason, legal or not i show respect, show my driver license, insurance card & concealed weapons permit

after that i am done, if they ask where i am coming from or going i politely let then know that's a freedom i enjoy, roaming our beautiful country at will, does it really matter where i am going or where i have been if your stopping me for a broken tail light or
speeding? 

If your asking me for my consent to search ... NO, if you have the legal right to search cool ,but if your asking for me to waive my right no way

ok you tell me if i had i have nothing to hide i should be ok with it .... ok let me go search your car ... remember you have nothing to hide

i am not a big anti government person here but i am an American , mad respect for law enforcement but i cherish my rights as an american

OK Gunny help me out here 

 

[slynne]

I worry about asset forfeiture a lot. Not so much in the present but in the future when I'll be driving my home and a pretty significant asset which can be easily seized. Because I use marijuana to manage my chronic pain, in most states I would be committing a crime although I do have a medical card for it so would be OK in states with reciprocity. Still, I probably worry more than I need to.

Heck, I got pulled over on Saturday because I forgot to put my tags on my car when I renewed my plates several months ago. I didn't have my current registration as it was in the same envelope as my tags. The officer let me off with a warning. No requests to search my car. Just some concern that I could drive so long without tags. No questions about if I had cash or anything.

 

[Gunny]

I fully agree with never surrendering your rights. If a police officer wants to search your vehicle bad enough they can call a K-9 unit and have a false hit. It's done every day in every state.

When traveling I carry a lot of drugs with me, all legal and in their proper containers, some would be considered recreational type if not prescribed (Xanax, Valium, Oxycontin, and Vicodin). I have been asked one time if I had any drugs in my car by a Bubba Type Deputy in Arkansas and when I said yes he acted shocked. I held up my Tupperware drug case and the deputy just turned and left. He never looked at one prescription.

It makes my blood boil to read about each right we are having taken away from us, not by any particular political party, but by both. It's not what I devoted my years in the Marine Corps for.

Rob

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

Is there a reason a lot of people on here are actually scared of asset forfeiture? I don't think it's right/fair that it does and can happen, but as a vehicle dweller i'm guessing the odds of it happening to you are about as close to zero as you can get.

Most traffic stops are just traffic stops. Unless you're impaired or otherwise acting aloof, they're not going to want to search your vehicle and tear it apart.

 

[TrainChaser]

ERLH: " i'm guessing the odds of it happening to you are about as close to zero as you can get."

Not true. You've brought up this argument before, and it's a poor one. Odds are really only useful before it happens. If you're one of the three out of every one hundred they tag, your odds don't mean a damn thing.

In most states, the odds are relatively good that you'll be stopped if you fit the 3-point method of picking their victims: 1) out-of-state license plates, 2) going in a certain direction, and 3) the driver or passengers are not white.

Tennessee had 7,616 civil asset forfeiture proceedings in 2016 and law enforcement seized more than $17 million in cash and 3,636 vehicles, and no conviction needed. The total for 2009-14 was a reported $85.9 million. And that's not counting $26 million shared with state and local law enforcement from 2009-13 by the U.S. Justice Department from and property seizures. It's just greed.

The problem here is that they bait the drivers they pull over, get them to let them search the vehicle on the premise "why not let us search if you don't have anything to hide?" And if they find anything they like, the standard of proof is very low; most states don't require anything resembling a conviction. Well, that's not how our Constitution is supposed to work, is it?

AND they also feel free to ripe the rig apart, which they're not going to pay for. You've got a new rig and they tear the dash apart, or the insulation, it's just too bad for you. They aren't going to fix it, if they find something or not. And they're not going to be neat about it, either.

MOST of the states fall into the category of "If we want it, we'll take it". And just because they did it illegally doesn't mean that you'll get it back. Some cities and towns in those states are worse than the rest of the state. And in some states, if you fight it and lose, you have to pay the STATE'S legal costs, too, not just you're own.

 

[Thirsty Boots Nomad]

...

Most traffic stops are just traffic stops.  Unless you're impaired or otherwise acting aloof, they're not going to want to search your vehicle and tear it apart.

As someone that tests higher on the autism spectrum, "acting aloof" (in most people's uninformed opinion) is kind of my default so ...

 

[user 37446]

All neat replies. I posted this because there is a lot more "reform" happening now vs say 3 years ago. I remember a thread from a forum member about being somewhere in Tx, I think it was Amarillo, and he got pulled over etc... It was completely (according to him) a "search for assets" type stop. I just hope that I don't get one of those, although for now, with my Prius, it's not too likely. I still am concerned though due to overzealous enforcement and "fishing" expeditions on the local LEO side as they get to keep a portion of the proceeds...  That's a lot of temptation.

Everyone should try this link:  http://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit/

and see what the state map of your state got graded as. I have no idea of the accuracy of this organization but it is an interesting graphic. I note that Tx is still listed as a D+...

 

[slynne]

I worry about it enough to get political about it and enough to work to change the law because I think it is a bad law. I am not going to worry about it so much that it will keep me from moving into a van and traveling.

 

[John61CT]

And getting punished by law enforcement simply for "driving while black", or having another type of "non-mainstream" appearance or attitude in a less open-minded area is not something the victims are just making up.

Yes it may not be as rampant in as many places as some think, but the goal should be to try to eliminate the problem, or at least reduce the damage, as much as possible.

 

[cognitive dissonance]

... as a vehicle dweller i'm guessing the odds of it happening to you are about as close to zero as you can get. As vehicle dwellers, our odds of coming into contact with cops are higher than average. Also, we have fewer legal protections against searches when in a vehicle than in a home

Most traffic stops are just traffic stops.  Unless you're impaired or otherwise acting aloof, they're not going to want to search your vehicle and tear it apart. EVERY traffic stop is a fishing expedition. Cops ALWAYS look for an excuse (known as probable cause) to search. As Gunny pointed out, if they can't find an excuse and they really want to search, they'll call in a dog and get the dog's "permission" in the form of a false alert.

ERLH, you are not doing anyone any favors by trying to minimize the problem. When your home is a vehicle, they can take your home! Everyone should be concerned about this. It happens in all 50 states, in big cities, small towns and rural areas too.

slynne - stick to your guns!!!

 

[masterplumber]

Just a note regarding marijuana possession and concealed carry, since someone above brought it up. I just renewed my ccw permit and because I live in Colorado they thought to add a note to the approval letter. Marijuana is still a federal class 1 narcotic and according to federal law possessing a firearm at the same time as a class 1 narcotic is a felony. I have no dog in this fight as I don't use, but I do see medicinal value in it for some people. I can imagine a scenario​ where someone has a medical card and a concealed carry permit thinking they are perfectly legal going down the road, and find themselves in prison and the assets forfeited because they did answer questions honestly and let the officer look around because hey, they're not doing anything wrong. Best to be polite but only give the minimal required information.

 

[user 37446]

Everyone needs to be aware of the issue, their rights and decide whether or not they want to be polite but firm about keeping their rights intact. 

I'm not advocating doing what the "sovereign nation" persons do, that's well, kinda dumb IMHO. Akin to just "waving a red flag in front of a bull".

Then there's the patchwork quilt of laws about permissive weed usage and possession.
Our neighbor to the north (where I'm a resident) is just now planning on legalizing personal use nationwide. 
So imagine the problems of a Canadian crossing the border into an unfriendly to weed state. Or having some trace of weed that a dog hits on. The possible issues are endless. As CG pointed out, these are "our" homes (not mine yet but hoping)... LEO's don't go into your S&B home and search, looking for "contraband", yet it happens somewhere probably every day to a vandweller.

I'm glad to see that 20 something states are trying to rein in or curb the practice, however that means more than 20 haven't. Gun owners already have a nightmare (not up north, we can't carry handguns) trying to figure out which states they can pass through with a concealed weapon, a stored weapon, a loaded weapon etc...

Know your rights but be prepared to have to go to jail or call a lawyer as some jurisdictions don't care what you say when stopped. Not at first anyway.

 

[cognitive dissonance]

I worry about asset forfeiture a lot. Not so much in the present but in the future when I'll be driving my home and a pretty significant asset which can be easily seized.  Because I use marijuana to manage my chronic pain, in most states I would be committing a crime although I do have a medical card for it so would be OK in states with reciprocity. Still, I probably worry more than I need to.

I have Colorado license plates, and it's comical how cops in neighboring states eye me. (Pavlov would relate!) I once went up to a cop who was eyeing me at a gas station and said "you know, it's just like skiing. If every Coloradoan skied, no one could ever go there on vacation. There'd be no room. Pot's the same way, and more of us don't smoke than do!" He wouldn't even look me in the eye.

BTW, I don't use marijuana, but I absolutely would if I had a chronic condition it helped with - something like pain or PTSD.  The good news is that more and more states are legalizing it, so it will be less and less an issue as time goes on!

And no, you don't worry more than you need to. It's not the odds - it's the stakes!

 

[ArtW]

^^exactly
I don't really care what the odds are it'll happen to me, I care how badly it will affect me if it happens to me
Same argument for a lot of precautions I take that others argue 'what are the odds?'
doesn't matter, pertinent question is 'what are the costs?"

 

[travlinman and wife]

If government passed a law that if they had. To restore every thing as it wa if they found nothing it would stopa lot.A lot of this

 

[TrainChaser]

One thing to remember is not to attract attention with stupid carelessness. Thinking is not yet against the law. Beg for trouble and you'll usually find it.

If there are three nice-looking Class Cs going down the highway, and the first one has a headlight out, the second has a taillight out, and you're #3, who just did a quick inspection of your rig before you left and have no lights out, which two of the three are they likely to pull over, just because they've got a piddly reason?

The next rule is not to drive like a teenager. If you're going to exceed the speed limit, weave in and out of traffic, and tailgate the cars in front of you, you might as well have a large flag flying from your roof with a marijuana leaf on it.

If you HAVE to talk on the phone while you're driving, don't be a dummy and hold the phone with your left hand, just inches from the window. I see this all the time.

Texting while driving? I HOPE they pull you over! I may even point you out.

 

[user 37446]

I used to think that Sante Fe, NM was a decent, progressive town as compared to, say Albuquerque. I was reviewing some civil asset forfeiture sites and found this April 2014 link, then was shocked to watch a video taped clip from a DA who was instructing police on how to properly seize items, and what to take.

Here's the link, scroll down to the very first (short) video, it has the image of the white shirted prosecutor on it. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/10/...list-when-deciding-which-assets-to-seize.html


[font=nyt-cheltenham, georgia,]Police Use Department Wish List When Deciding Which Assets to Seize[/font]
[font=nyt-cheltenham, georgia,][font=georgia,][font=nyt-cheltenham-sh, georgia,]By SHAILA DEWAN[/font][font=nyt-cheltenham-sh, georgia,]NOV. 9, 2014[/font][/font]
Continue reading the main story[/font]

 

[WalkaboutTed]

Back in the 80s, I watched a small hotel resort (where we rented a slip for the boat on which we lived then) being seized by the ATF and Federal Marshalls (the Manatee Resort in Port Salerno, Florida). It was amazing and scary to watch the process. It was a major "tasty morsel". In Phoenix, our handyman had his work truck and his cargo trailer, full of tools, seized when he was arrested for marijuana possession. It took him thousands of dollars and months to get his "tools of his trade" back.

If your vehicle has a lien on it, anyone can see that with a quick credit check on you. In this Machiavellian world, I imagine that the predator government entities might check to see if it was worth their while to seize an asset which they may have to sell at less than its appraised value and pay back the lienholder, thus occurring a loss.

With that in mind, we looked at our "tasty morsel" of a vehicle and decided to refinance. It is now financed for more than it is worth, and we are using the proceeds to make the payments. Yes, it's costing us 3 1/2%. But if we were in Colorado, where marijuana is legal (or even here, where medical marijuana is legal) and went to Oklahoma, the police, with impunity, could claim erroneously that some law was broken and seize a vehicle worth thousands of dollars. Remember, in Oklahoma, they will even seize the value on gift or debit cards (with a kickback of 7.5% to the company that does the transaction). The expensive burden of proof to get an asset back is on the owner to pay.

So with that in mind, our vehicle is now worth less than we owe. The chance of asset forfeiture is infinitesimal, but still a disturbing possibility. Paranoid? The definition of paranoia is "the irrational fear" of something. You decide. I've seen it close up twice and and willing to act to preclude that possibility.
Ted

 

[rvpopeye]

Interesting idea Walkabout !