Solenoid Going In: Seeking Feedback From the Pros!

[riggyk]

Hi Everyone,

Huge thanks out there to Bob for posting his instructional video and helping me a bit with some guidance on this. - Given that my van is going in for some inspection and maintenance work before I hit the road, I'm also having them install my solenoid setup, or.... to get the meat of it done for later connection. If anyone has a minute, I'm looking for some feedback on my circuit soundness and some thoughts to the below questions, which would really help guide my process:

**** I've attached some photos of a frontal view of my engine, my battery, and the closest area next to the battery (side wall where battery ground is) that might be sufficient for mounting? My questions are thus:

1) What's a good strategy for placement overall (across any car), and more specifically given this setup? I assume it's hard to make a judgement call completely from photos, but just looking for some logic here should I need to give the mechanics a heads up.

2) In talking to Bob, my whole electrical setup (solar circuit and battery house) is still underway (going in in a day or two), so the reason for having this solenoid installed ahead of time is to kill two birds with one stone and get some mechanical help with the install, that frankly I didn't want to try all on my own. If I have these guys mount the solenoid, connect it to the 150a fuse and starter battery, ground it, and connect it to my fuse block, connect/drill/run the long wire into the van, but leave it unattached to my future house battery circuit, is it OK to leave that hot wire wrapped up safely with electrical tape or something and install it to my house Buss at a future date? Any safety considerations there?

3) Below is my circuit, does this look sufficient and sound? Assume 4awg wire across the whole circuit.

Circuit: House Battery ---> + 5/16 Buss Bars (Blue Sea) ---> 150ANL Fuse --> Long Run 4AWG Wire --> Cole Hersee 200A Continuous Duty --> 4AWG to another 150ANL Fuse ---> Starter Battery.    :: Front small X2 #10 terminals: 1 to ground, 1 to 10a waterproof fuse connected to Fuse Block. (all with 16awg wire)


I also want to give a huge THANKS to everyone here. Ya'll are super intelligent and kind people and very gracious for helping out a young guy who knows absolutely NOTHING about all this, but enjoying the learning curve!

 

[SternWake]

Put the fuse before the buss bar.

This can clean up a lot of wiring, if you have the room on top of the battery for the extra height of the fuses
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002INJXO6/ref=twister_B071H9NL9G?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

WHile powerng the solenoid from engine battery works, the original alternator to engine battery circuit is not very fat, it was not intended to ever pass the extra amperage of a depleted battery tacked onto the end of that circuit, as a result the OEM wiring acts as an electrical bottle neck, and it is possible the OEM fuse, on that cabling, might blow when there is a depleted battery tacked onto it, and a fast spinning cold alternator making its full rated output.

For maximum alternator contribution the thick wire to AUX battery through solenoid should goto the Alternator (+) output stud, instead of engine battery (+). This also requires one less fuse as no fuse is required at alternator output, but one is required at engine battery---solenoid---house battery circuit.

The problem with putting cable on alternator is acess to alternator (+) stud and stacking another ring terminal on it, which might be a huge pain in the ass on your vehicle.

Hooking right to alternator directly is usually a much shorter circuit path and can greatly increase the charging potential, when the vehicles voltage regulator is seeking and holding mid 14's for that period of time just after starting engine. Hooking solenoid to engine battery certainly works, and is the standard way to do it, but the original circuit was never intended to pass the extra ~80 amps a pair of depleted golf cart batteries can ask for when they recieve a voltage potential in the mid 14's when depleted.

I'd have the mechanics stack another 4 awg ring terminal on alternator output stud, for more effective alternator charging of house bank, but the other way certainly works, and is usually easier.

 

[rvpopeye]

Yeah , everything SW^ just wrote X2.

 

[riggyk]

Ok got it.  Wow, incredibly helpful. SternWake you're an absolute BEAST.

So let me get this straight, and excuse my slowness here....

1) So given the circuit I have attached, put the 150A fuse in between the positive + buss and the battery, and then connect the 4awg long run directly onto the positive + buss bars? Am I getting that correct?

2) Technically the circuit setup (at engine) would be the exact same, but just connect the solenoid to the alternator post vs the house battery? Ground still applies, correct? Would the fuse box connection still be necessary?

3) Sorry but I'm having trouble making sense of how the below fuse adapter comes into play here.... did you mean add THAT to the alternator for better access potential, or to my house battery to free up terminal connections? Or did you mean that goes on the + buss bars given 5 connections at that point?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002INJXO6/ref=twister_B071H9NL9G?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

3) If, for some reason, the alternator direct route is a no-go... is it a major risk to go for the solenoid off the battery.... or not necessarily? I assume it's not impossible to go direct as you'd mentioned, maybe just a potential pain-in-the-ass if anything? Just have em' (hopefully) get it done??

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

If you follow Sternwakes advice and hook up directly to the alternator - and it's not always possible on some alternators - then you only need the one fuse back on the house end.

If you have to hook up to the engine battery instead of the alternator, then you need a second fuse on that end as well.

It's sometimes hard, in these incredibly cramped engine compartments, to find anyplace to mount a solenoid.  It CAN be mounted back in the house, but then you need to run the solenoid activation wire back there, too.  Which can be done, but it's a bit of a PITA.

 

[riggyk]

Woops yeah sorry for the redundant question on the fuse, I glazed over that! A bit of brain fry going on over here.

FWIW it's a 2003 Chevy Express 2500...

Hopefully they can do it! If not...I wonder how much of a risk it would be to run off the starter battery.

 

[highdesertranger]

better to have a brain fry then a main cable fry. highdesertranger

 

[MikeRuth]

Ok I hope these can help. I have a ford E-150 2007. First off the alternator has a plastic protective ring on the + with just enough room and cut out for the OEM cable to the battery.
I had to open the cut out a bit to be able to install a ring terminal and yes that was a PITA working in the blind so to speak.
Shot of OEM connection. 


Shot of positive stud 



Shot of both now on the stud. 



And I mounted my solenoid up on the firewall.


to clarify that RED cable is going back to the alternator and will be cut right there, terminals added and connected to the solenoid. The brown cable is a home run from the house batteries to the starting battery terminal.

 

[riggyk]

Ok I hope these can help. I have a ford E-150 2007. First off the alternator has a plastic protective ring on the + with just enough room and cut out for the OEM cable to the battery.
I had to open the cut out a bit to be able to install a ring terminal and yes that was a PITA working in the blind so to speak.
Shot of OEM connection. 


Shot of positive stud 



Shot of both now on the stud. 



And I mounted my solenoid up on the firewall.


to clarify that RED cable is going back to the alternator and will be cut right there, terminals added and connected to the solenoid. The brown cable is a home run from the house batteries to the starting battery terminal.

Nice! Is your setup fully operative and thriving? 

Any reccomendations for trying to tackle this? - Maybe I'll hop in there tomorrow with some mechanic friends and try to get an idea for what the + alternator setup looks like...

I'm still confused here... in this capacity with the direct to alternator does this require a ground and connection to the fuse block at those #10 small studs as well? Or maybe just a ground in conjunction with the house run connection and connection straight into the alternator?

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I'm still confused here... in this capacity with the direct to alternator does this require a ground and connection to the fuse block at those #10 small studs as well? Or maybe just a ground in conjunction with the house run connection and connection straight into the alternator?

You need a complete circuit.  The power from the alternator - or engine battery - needs a return path back to it's source.  This can be the chassis, if your house battery is grounded to it.  If not, you need to run a separate heavy ground wire back to the engine compartment.

 

[riggyk]

You need a complete circuit.  The power from the alternator - or engine battery - needs a return path back to it's source.  This can be the chassis, if your house battery is grounded to it.  If not, you need to run a separate heavy ground wire back to the engine compartment.

Ok got it. So IF going to the battery this still needs that connection to the fuse block, but if straight to the alternator it does not need the fuse connection? Both grounded obviously...

 

[SternWake]

The original alternator to engine battery circuit is already fused


You are fuiing the house battery.  there is no fuse needed at the alternator if taking taking power from there.

but if you take power for House battery from engine battery, a fuse must be located close to both batteries.

While you can ground house battery to frame, this circuit then relies on the frame to engine battery ground, and then the battery gto engine ground.  the Engine battery to frame ground is usually not very thick, and can be an electrical bottleneck to alternator current to depleted house battery.

If grounding house battery to frame, i recommend adding a ground cable from frame to alternator engine mounting bolt.  If this is not desirable to do, then ground engine battery to frame so as to not rely on the original engine to firewall ground. 

On some vehicles the engine to firewall ground is only 12 or 14awg, and if you ground house battery to frame, this might be the only ground path to pass alternator current, and that 12 or 14 awg will severely restrict alternator current to it.  That thin wire could be compromised and weird electrical issues might arise.

For absolute best house battery recharging via alternator, a thick cable from house battery (-) to alternator mounting bolt is best, as it eliminates the troublesome frame grounds.

If frame grounding is chosen, the quality of the connection should be paramount. the steel should be gleaming like silver, and the bolt threads and head should be likewise stellar in appearance.  Once secured slather it in liquid electrical tape orf smear with grease.  Do not underestimate the importance of frame grounds or the quality of electrical terminations.  Yes one can simply crush wire under a washer and have it work, but it will not last long, and will cause issues long before it outright fails completely

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

If a short circuit we're to occur anywhere along the wire between the engine and the house side, batteries can produce enough current to get the wire red hot and start a fire.  Indeed, if you wire two or three batteries together in series to raise the voltage, you can get enough current to actually weld steel.  Thus the need for fuses very close to every battery in a circuit.

Alternators, by comparison, simply can't produce enough current, even under short circuit conditions, to get a properly sized wire hot enough to be dangerous.  So no fuse is necessary on the alternator.

 

[riggyk]

Very helpful guys... sorry but when I said "fuse" in the alternator stud connection context, I just was wondering if the solenoid still needs an activation connection from the fuse block via that little in-line 10A waterproof 16awg connection as seen in the solenoid-->starter battery video?

**** So if I have these guys CAN hook my 4awg solenoid run directly onto the + alternator stud, is there any rationale to where/how the solenoid should be mounted? Or just go with whatever presents itself as it can be slim pickings?

**** Are there any potential ways to alleviate a crowded or blocked stud at the alternator? Would it make sense to try and get some kind of adapter on there (similar or identical to the Amazon link SternWake posted for the battery posts) so as to better accommodate both the OEM connection and 4awg solenoid connection? I'm sure this is highly contextual and varies by alternator setup.

**** If, say it's a complete no-go with the alternator, given that there's no chance of connection.... how dangerous would it be to default to the starter battery connection? SternWake has me a bit spooked on running it to the starter battery now! And I'm sure for good reason.

Sorry about all the questions here guys but I have a feeling it's best to give these amigos every ounce of information I can to achieve potential success.

 

[riggyk]

Also, given that it's kind of a PITA to find quality marine/long run wire on shorts notice.....I'm heading down to the West Marine today to have some 4awg wire cut for my long run from the house....they technically can't crimp it for me but can give me the crimper tool and show me. Any best practices or recommendations on this? As this is a large amp/important connection I'll most certainly give it the proper care and throw in copper sturdy lugs, but wanted to get any feedback before I go for it.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Very helpful guys... sorry but when I said "fuse" in the alternator stud connection context, I just was wondering if the solenoid still needs an activation connection from the fuse block via that little in-line 10A waterproof 16awg connection as seen in the solenoid-->starter battery video?

Yes.  The solenoid will not work if you don't run an activation wire to power the electromagnet inside it.

**** So if I have these guys CAN hook my 4awg solenoid run directly onto the + alternator stud, is there any rationale to where/how the solenoid should be mounted? Or just go with whatever presents itself as it can be slim pickings?

There are two types of continuous duty solenoids.  In addition to the two BIG studs for the main battery wires, it will either have one or two small studs.  Let's call them 3 wire and 4 wire solenoids.  The 3 wire solenoids need to be mounted to a grounded surface.  The hot wire from the fuse box goes to the single small stud, and the ground becomes the return path to complete the circuit.  The 4 wire solenoids have an insulated base.  The hot wire goes to either small stud - doesn't matter which - and a wire must be run from the other small stud to ground in order to complete the circuit.  If mounting the 4 wire type to a grounded surface like the firewall, you can run a short jumper wire from one small stud to one of the mounting bolts to ground it.

**** Are there any potential ways to alleviate a crowded or blocked stud at the alternator? Would it make sense to try and get some kind of adapter on there (similar or identical to the Amazon link SternWake posted for the battery posts) so as to better accommodate both the OEM connection and 4awg solenoid connection? I'm sure this is highly contextual and varies by alternator setup.

I don't know.

**** If, say it's a complete no-go with the alternator, given that there's no chance of connection.... how dangerous would it be to default to the starter battery connection? SternWake has me a bit spooked on running it to the starter battery now! And I'm sure for good reason.

There's no danger.  It's just that the wire from the alternator to the engine system is usually not that thick, and it becomes a limiting factor that doesn't allow the maximum energy back to the house battery.  Think of it as having a fire hose between the two batteries, but only having a garden hose from the alternator to the batteries.

If you can't fit two wires on the alternator, some people replace the stock wire on the alternator with a bigger one to improve the situation.

Sorry about all the questions here guys but I have a feeling it's best to give these amigos every ounce of information I can to achieve potential success.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Also, given that it's kind of a PITA to find quality marine/long run wire on shorts notice.....I'm heading down to the West Marine today to have some 4awg wire cut for my long run from the house....they technically can't crimp it for me but can give me the crimper tool and show me. Any best practices or recommendations on this? As this is a large amp/important connection I'll most certainly give it the proper care and throw in copper sturdy lugs, but wanted to get any feedback before I go for it.

Do a search on Youtube for videos on this subject.  Watch two or three of them.  You'll get the idea.

Hey Bob!  It's too bad you can't get together with Sternwake and shoot some training videos on this stuff for your series.  That would be awesome!

 

[riggyk]

Thanks, John.

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]There are two types of continuous duty solenoids.  In addition to the two BIG studs for the main battery wires, it will either have one or two small studs.  Let's call them 3 wire and 4 wire solenoids.  The 3 wire solenoids need to be mounted to a grounded surface.  The hot wire from the fuse box goes to the single small stud, and the ground becomes the return path to complete the circuit.  The 4 wire solenoids have an insulated base.  The hot wire goes to either small stud - doesn't matter which - and a wire must be run from the other small stud to ground in order to complete the circuit.  If mounting the 4 wire type to a grounded surface like the firewall, you can run a short jumper wire from one small stud to one of the mounting bolts to ground it.[/font]

Mine is the 4 wire. 2 big and 2 small.  - That's helpful.


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]There's no danger.  It's just that the wire from the alternator to the engine system is usually not that thick, and it becomes a limiting factor that doesn't allow the maximum energy back to the house battery.  Think of it as having a fire hose between the two batteries, but only having a garden hose from the alternator to the batteries. [/font][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]If you can't fit two wires on the alternator, some people replace the stock wire on the alternator with a bigger one to improve the situation.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Got it. So there's no immediate danger to having a bottle neck shut down my van or blow me up? hahah (total sparky comment here).  I'm thinking the only two options for places to mount the solenoid would either be on the firewall (moreso for alternator) and right next to the starter battery, near the battery ground as seen attached.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]2 more questions for you wizards!![/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]*** Let's say the fine man at the shop finds a way to get this thing mounted and connected to the alternator, is there a cabling route that might be ideal? Or conversely and better stated, is there a path to avoid or any interior type engine stuff to avoid?[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]*** Given that my house solar setup isn't in place just yet (will be going in a day or two AFTER the mechanics work at the solenoid) , what would be a reasonable best route for getting this baby installed with a direct connection to the battery or alternator, that would allow me to safely and easily connect the circuit in the future? It probably also makes sense to have them (more qualified) to drill a hole and grommet for the long run.. as opposed to me fumbling with it later. -- Maybe just Run the long line all the way through the van and just hang the wire and tape the shit out of it? I'm having trouble figuring this one out for best practice. Obviously, if I can, I'd prefer to just get it 99% installed in a way that wouldn't require future messing with the starter battery or PITA alternator + connection.[/font]

 

[SternWake]

The solenoid does not have to go in engine compartment.


It can go right next to Aux battery if you desire, or anywhere along the fat cable between starter battery (+)or alternator (+) to Aux battery (+). 

The only issue is running the solenoid trigger wire is a greater distance. But it is easier to run a 10 awg wire than it is to route a 4awg cable.

Think outside the box, If the firewall ihas a nice clean area for the solenoid, and you choose the starter battery to feed the solenoid instead of alternator (+) stud, then great.

But IF you can get another cable ONTO the ALT(+), then it can be a much shorter (+) side of the circuit path to the AUX battery, requiring less copper to reach the Aux battery 's fuse.  Since this alternator cable will run underbody, one could, in theory, mount solenoid underbody too.

Drilling a hole  rounding the edges and having a wire run through a properly sized grommet is very good.

Here is another option:

 https://www.bluesea.com/products/category/27/Feed_Through_Connectors

These introduce more electrical resistance as 2 more ring terminals are required but are very solid mechanical connections. The grommets can be compromised easier which might allow a fuse or 2 to blow, but an unbroken cable has less electrical resistance.

There are many ways to skin this cat.

 

[riggyk]

Ok. This is all starting to fall together a bit more... or at least with less (ow this hurts my brain) on my end.

I guess my last question for the moment is....can I attach a 4awg wire safely to either the starter battery or the alternator, and leave it tucked to the side for future connection? For example.. say he gives me the thumbs up that it's possible to attach a terminal to the alternator... is it safe to attach a large length wire for room to play with the solenoid placement and to slice/dice as I go? Or is that a hot wire? I suppose the answer determines whether or not I full blown plan out the circuit and what not before mounting the solenoid and attempting to connect to the starter or the alternator.

Given that I could (with the help of an electrician friend) assemble the circuit on my own in a day or two's time after either the solenoid is mounted, it might make sense to just get a connection in first, then map everything out later.