Solar thread, questions, pictures, and help.

[TucsonAZ]

Fearnoevil your AC will pull about 700 watts per hour. Watts is how much the item uses but it's normally talked about in kwh which would be 1,000 watts in an hour, you would get to that place many ways, 20 100w light bulbs for 30 minutes, 100 10w fans for 60 minutes, running your ac for 40 minutes.

Think of it like gph in water or mph with a car, many different ways to come to the same place.

Either way, if you use 6,500 watts a day either from running your AC for 9 hours or a lot of little items you will need a way to store that energy (batteries) and put the energy back (solar, hydro, gen, grid tie). 1,000 watts of solar panels won't cut it, that will give you maybe 3,500 watts in perfect condition or to put that into perspective, about $0.45 worth of grid power per day.

Also, if you were to do 12 batteries you would need 2v cells and a 24v system to avoid parallel connections. If you have the money to buy, store and care for 12-18 batteries buy more solar, panels are cheaper. If you don't have the roof space for that much, I'm guessing you also don't have a way to lug almost a ton of batteries around with you either.

I have a LARGE system for a mobile system and I'm only producing 3,000 watts per day. I don't have room for anything else on my roof, seriously, nothing. I had to make a special platform to even access any part of my roof.

You are going to have to get more realistic about what you're going to be able to use on about two quarters worth of grid power per day.

 

[DC Fuse]

Fearnoevil, of the 14 yrs. I spent in my RV 10 of those was off grid.
In that time I went thru 2 sets of 6 - 6v GC batteries so I can give you real world hands on.
Mistakes are made and you learn.
I would ask you to consider using from the start LED lighting W/ maybe a brighter reading lamp. Very low power usage. You will easily need a dozen LEDs + fixtures. This is 2 amp/hr.up to 6amps/hr.
Next you need to consider your water pump This is 2 amps/hr.

Your 22" flatscreen will run at 3-4 amps/hr and add 2 amps/hr. for DVD player.
Fans. Lots of fans. If you insist on AC you won't run it off 12V. It's nice to have though for when you are on grid. I took mine out to have space for my solar and trade-off for roof weight. Fans - try to use muffin fans to move air but 4-6 amps/hr. is to be expected.
Your cooking should be done over propane/some use butane. Microwave is going to suck power. My experience is that rapid depletion on those batteries shortens their life.
From the begining get a Honda/Yamaha generator. 2000 - 3000 watt. Don't waste currency on ANY of those cheap China ones. Remember too, that a Quality generator can more easily be pawned if you get in a temporary bind.
Your heat should ideally be a catylitic from the start. Some get by w/a Buddy heater but FOLLOW DIRECTIONS on venting. Install a co2 alarm so you don't kill yourself. All rigs should have these.

Refrigerators are about 25 amps to 60 amps per DAY at 12 volts.
Add up those figures to your estimated usage per day and add 10% to the total and you are going to have a good level of comfort.

I put a washer in mine and it's coming back out. Weight. Excessive water usage too. Get yourself a janitors mop wringer bucket or find a 24 hr. laundromat and make a nite of it including sleeping.

Your system will be pretty much limited to 4-6 GC batteries considering weight, space in vehicle, and ability to charge correctly.

Your goal is to see how you can accomplish this from those parameters.
The trick is'nt to see how much power you can make. It is to see how little power you use to accomplish your needs using state of the art products that cost more upfront but prove to be cheaper and more durable in the long run. Think Marine grade.

It's not easy at first when you attempt to leave the Matrix. You no longer can take for granted just hitting a switch for every need you have. It's quite sobering when TusconAZ tells you what you are going to go thru daily to produce 50 cents worth of grid power.


6 GC batteries gives you 150 amp/hrs a day. Work from that.

Reality bites on this issue. But it is reality.
Of course, your mileage may vary.

 

[Fearnoevil]

Thanks Tucson and DC for your advice, I really appreciate the input, something of a wake-up call, and I now realize that I'm going to have to take a crash course and really nail down the electrical/solar/battery thing before I do anything else.

While I'm not quite ready to give up on the clothes washer yet :-/, I am willing to make some far more realistic changes to adapt to the limited power usage. One main idea that's still rather nebulous is how I will actually LIVE when I begin this new mobile existence - i.e. will my planned lifestyle be more nomadic or more fixed? What I have been planning is actually a sort of 2-phase approach - start out mobile with the intention of EXPLORING and visit several parts of the country based on a list of places I think I'd eventually like to live, then decide and settle there long term (but with the ability to move on if it doesn't work out ;?). But even during the nomadic phase, I really plan on staying at each place, possibly for months at a time, in order to really get the lay of the land. Plus, with the terrible gas mileage I expect to get from the Russbus :dodgy: I'm probably not going to be able to afford to be constantly on the move anyway.

So then I'm going to have to decide what will work best if I'm going to be "fixed" far more than I'll be mobile, and whether to largely boondock or to rent space in RV parks or other means which will allow me to be hooked up to shore power. While I like/prefer the former, access to the necessary power to fit my desired comfort level may dictate the latter. A mixture of both would be nice, and it is possible that over time, as I grow more accustomed to my new lifestyle, I will be able to adapt and ween myself of a lot of what I now deem a necessity. Simplification is a desired lifestyle goal but may take some getting used to, lol.
;?D

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Guess I'll first have to figure out how much space I'll have for those solar panels - I just thought of an idea to build a stackable, flip out set of frames, so that while I'm driving the solar panels will conform to the roof size of the bus, but parked they could be opened, sort of like a pocket knife, and stick out over the sides of the bus, possibly doubling the capacity. Need to work on strength issues, maybe added slide-out supports. Wish I knew how to use a CAD program, grrr, there are so many holes to fill...
;?D

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Hmmm, maybe better if they simply folded open from the center outwards, use piano hinge along the outer edge, and slide out supports, stronger I'd think. Has anyone already tried this, and if so, with or without success, lol.
;?D

 

[Fearnoevil]

Wait, nix that idea - unless I want to invest in double-sided solar panels, folding one on top of another would mean no charging while driving, so no go. Ahh, but making one set slide out from underneath, that would work, so uumm, I guess that's my final iteration on that idea, lol, for now anywho.

Btw, this PESKY 5-minute limit to editing a post is a real pita. :dodgy: Especially since every time I want to add a reply to my own post it simply adds it to the previous post thus making that addition completely uneditable. First time I've EVER run across this "feature" in a forum, and have to say I don't like it much, but I suppose the powers that be have their reasons, nuff said, I shall stop whining now ;?D

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HEY, what the.... lol so just as I go to complain about the run-together-no-edit forum structure, it doesn't :huh:. Guess I need to read the users manual cuz I don't understand, lol (and man do I look silly, lol).
;?D

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Maybe you could even add a few more attached to one side of the bus with hinges (drivers side probably, locked down while driving) and then when parked simply unlock and flip up. Of course you'd have to park the bus facing the right way. That brings up the subject of being able prop up your panels at an angle to take full advantage of the proper exposure - anyone doing that with their roof panels?

 

[Fearnoevil]

One more question (sorry about the deluge, lol) but anyone using solar tracking setups? I know they're a lot more efficient - here's an excerpt on the possibilties:

"A 4KW rated (about 377 sq ft) array in Santa Maria CA would produce about 375KW flat, 511KW tilted 34deg, and 641KW with 1 axis tracking and 659KW with 2 axis tracking. Respectively 36% and 25% improvements due to mounting. Only less than 3% better by adding the second axis tracker. A 76% improvement going from flat to 2 axis tracking."

Yah, I know it says "4KW array", but if you drop a decimal place that wouldn't that mean a 400w system would see an increase from 38kw to 66kw with 2 axis tracking, and probably higher since this post is about 5 years old. 2-axis tracking systems are probably not realistic due to price and reliability, but a tilted single-axis tracker would certainly boost power generation by 40% according to what I've read, but will even that offset the cost of the system? From just a cursory exploration I think you can buy a single-axis solar tracker and east-west linear actuator from $170 - $200 (MIC of course so could be junk, idk ;?) That's for a 400w setup btw.

 

[SternWake]

Have you ever heard of coin operated laundromats? I visit one every three weeks or so, and usually there is some female eye candy strutting around in some loose cotton garments. But this is southern California, so eye candy is abundant, unfortunately most are all self declared princesses and are too cool to acknowledge you.

This quest of yours for a washer and dryer inside a DIY RV is just simply ridiculous. Do you have any idea the amount of water a washer uses? You gonna put a couple hundred gallon water tank inside for fresh and another hundred gallons for grey?

If you can't make any concessions to inevitable inconvenience, then perhaps you need to rethink entry into this lifestyle.

Stuff your roof full of solar, and forget trying to engineer trackers or flipping panels, and work within the confines of the solar you can fit up there. If you need more then rig up a storage system to set up portable panels

 

[Fearnoevil]

Yes, but my xp in the past is that while some coinops are nice, the great majority are filthy, real armpits, machines (especially dryers) that will screw up your clothes and sketchy clientele who will steal your **** if you don't watch it like a hawk. And as I previously stated, I'll probably be hooked to services/power the majority of the time, and can be flexible when necessary (maybe there's a Yelp for laundromats to find the good ones ;?). Plus the small washer I've been considering is a 1.7 cu. ft. Avanti, very efficient on water and power so while it'll probably use close to 18 gals per load, I figure I'll only use it once every 5 days so I should be able to replenish the 60-70 gal fresh water during that time. Hanging dry clothing when I'm not on shore power is probably my best bet, which will only be a problem in the winter or if I live in a very rainy clime (western Oregon could be problematic ;?).

As for tilting panels, I don't really see a problem with designing that into the system, and considering the added power output, well worth the effort/expense I would think. Adding 30 degree tilt in winter months can increase power output from 40-90% depending on the part of the country you're in (the farther north you are the greater the increase) according to many sources like Solar Today. But the single-axis sun tracker, that could well be pie in the sky, lol. I have thought about building a small trailer - it would have some storage capacity for stuff like my tools in the bottom half, while the rest would be dedicated to a fold up/down solar array with tracking system and auxiliary batteries.

 

[TucsonAZ]

Make this super simple, figure out how many watts you can fit on your roof as it isn't a variable you can change. Figure out what it will take to store that much power after the sun goes down. Now, figure out how to live within those variables that can't be changed.

It sounds like you're having fun planning around the possibilities without stopping to think if they're realistic. If you have a 400w system, you will AT BEST produce 1,500 watts of power in a day or about $0.15 worth of grid power so it isn't worth tracking panels and such in your situation.

Maybe stick with having a few panels you store inside and setting them out tilted towards the sun on nice days.

 

[Zil]

The marine cruising community have been living off grid for ever. I have even read about lots of refrigeration, air conditioning and water treatment units. Very large battery banks charged with generators and solar arrays.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/

 

[akrvbob]

You want an apartment on wheels, and it can be done but it will be very expensive and very difficult. Boondocking with it is very unlikely.

You started with the wrong base unit for it. A 60 passenger school bus or city bus would have been a good platform with plenty of room and easily handle all the weight you want. Then all you have to do is pour money at it, a lot of money!!.

If you stay in the shuttle bus forget solar. To run everything you want will require being hooked up to shore power or a generator. Get solar to meet your basic needs and run the generator for the AC and washer dryer and everything else you want.
Bob

 

[Fearnoevil]

Tucson, while I am exploring every possibility, I fully understand that ultimately you have to settle for the best cost to output ratio, and if I need more power than what I can fit on my roof, I believe there are other options that I need to look into. I have seen RV owners who have solar panels that are stored (somewhere) in their rig until they stop to camp, and then they're set up on a stand and plugged into their system.

I still like the stacked slide-out panel idea and don't see why it wouldn't work (doubles the solar output) - I did some see that others have already thought of this (there goes my patent, drat the luck, lol). Also building/installing a solar panel rack that allows the panels to be tilted to a 30 degree angle should be pretty easy and worth it if it can increase power generation, a fairly cheap upgrade imo.

And as for the side-mounted panels, as with all great ideas, seems like someone's beat me to it, lol. Here's an excerpt from a post describing the mounting/function:

"each fixture weighs in at around 50# and is held in place with a single 0.5x0.5x0.125 u- shaped aircraft-grade (I forget the real number) aluminum strut.
They don't move.
Also I can move them to their travel position in less then a minute. Simply remove a clip, remove clip from strut, clip panel to fixed mount on the truck's side.
Store struts behind the driver's platform. Done (checks watch, 70 seconds I LIED!!)

I considered all types of mounting methods, but the 'keep it simple, stupid' method turned out to be the least expensive/most effective mounting.
I was in Nebraska in May and June and was hit by 100mph gusts with no effect. I did worry about hail, but it was raining to hard. Got lucky about the size of the hail (dime-sized)

-On Oregon's coast what's seen as a extremely windy day seems to me like a normal summer afternoon in the plains states. *grins*

I even drive with them extended -just far enough to re-aim them towards the sun of course! *grins again*."

So that's definitely an idea I will explore, seems an easier design then the slide out one. Meanwhile, as I mentioned I plan on building a deck on the rear third (for much needed storage mostly). I've decided that when I'm building it I'll probably add a 10" wide catwalk running down the center all the way to the front of the bus. That will allow me to access the solar panels for cleaning/repair, and if I decide to build the tilt-up option it will make that easy to set up

Otherwise, roger on the system sizing, I'll nail down how much solar I can fit on the bus, size the battery bank to match it, then figure out where/how to fit them all in (where there's a will there's a way ) and then the rest should follow. Extra batteries will mean extra weight, I know, but as I said I don't plan to be on the road more than about 5-10% of the time, so the mpg hit is a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
;?D

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Zil, thanks a lot for that link! I have been researching other marine sites as well to find out how they do things and there's a ton of really useful info, and cross-pollination of ideas always helps us to find new solutions

 

[Howiet]

So how much is this thing gonna weigh?

 

[TucsonAZ]

So how much is this thing gonna weigh?

That would be the issue, tilt out panels I've seen done like an awning, works for clear, windless days but I don't want to have to worry about that crap. The slide out idea is good but as a fabricator, you're not going to get it done structurally in any type of reasonable way on all but the smallest of panels, the weight will kill you! You could have them on a roller track with foldout legs under, roll them out and affix the legs to the side to save on weight but I wouldn't trust that in the winds.

Unless you have an F-650 diesel and are towing a unit there is no motorhome that would allow for such weight to be added.

Great ideals in a world of infinite time, aluminum, a cnc and team of designers. Or for somebody with very deep pockets, otherwise it's just fun to talk about.

 

[Fearnoevil]

Tucson, did you read the guys post, he said wind wasn't an issue - I understand a little about structural fabrication and I don't see any issues at all with the design (he did mention using aircraft grade aluminium channel). Of course if a storm was comes up you'd want to batten down the hatches, np. Here's a tiny little 13' Trillium with the side panels.

They make nice awnings and having 2/3 of your south exposure shaded would certainly help keep things cooler, I would imagine.

As for all this weight you speak of, I don't think we're picturing the same thing. For instance one 140w panel weighs 28 lbs. and measures 27" x 55", let's say I'll mount 4 of them, length-wise of course, 2 per side. Then if I were to build the slide-out racks, using 3/4"x1-1/2" O.D. rectangular chrome moly tubing, I calculate the weight of the frame and extensions at no more than 18 lbs each. As I see it the panel only has to slide out about 30" (the width of the panel plus a few so there's no shadow) so that's approx 46 lbs on a 30" wingspan, so I don't believe it's beyond the structural design I have in mind and so I'm not including any ground struts.

I calculate the extra weight for 4 panels and racks comes to under 200 lbs total. Of course the base rack would have to be upgraded to a heavier c-channel so that would probably add another say 30 - 40 lbs, and if I added the tilt-up struts, maybe another 2-3 lbs of hardware per panel or say 24 lbs more, still not a ton of weight (but who knows, real-world testing could force me to beef that up IF I actually decide to go this route )

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One thing I should make clear, I have a TON of experience building and fabricating things in the many years I've worked in the trades and in my own personal businesses, and nothing I love more than inventing and tinkering with stuff, in fact I'm happiest when faced with a challenge that others seem to think won't work, lol. I just don't have much RV xp, and of course there's the electrical thing :blush:

 

[Fearnoevil]

I guess I should also make it clear (since I'm sure not everyone has read my Russbus thread, lol) that I'm planning on building a deck on the roof of the bus, the supports of which will be anchored to the outer wall studs. Considering that I'm also planning solar racks, I've decided that I'll just continue the deck structure the whole length of the roof (it will also extend about 3' beyond the back, making a roof for the rear porch ;?). If I go with the additional side-awning racks (as opposed to the roof top slide-outs) the deck might provide a good place to attach the hinges for the frames for these units.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Russ, what sort of mpg does your bus get now, and what sort of mpg do you anticipate getting after you add everything you are planning to add?

Regards
John

 

[Fearnoevil]

Actually I have no idea, at least no personal experience because the vehicle was delivered to me from DesMoines, and he'd bought it from the city at auction so hadn't driven it much either (but he said he thought it was getting 11-12 on the drive to my place). It's been parked other than for a short run up and down the hwy to see how she handles, so I won't know until I take that first long trip. By then she should weigh a lot more, lol, so I guess I'll never really know how much of a difference the conversion made. I don't expect to get more than 9-10 mpg, seems the average from what I've been able to find out on the internets ;?D

 

[highdesertranger]

a little advice here. about mounting solar panels to the sides if you are planning on boondocking out west I don't think it will be a good idea. many times out here you must disregard plants rubbing the sides of your vehicles. many times it's impractical to try to clear. at the very best you end up with desert pin stripping, or Nevada pin stripping(or insert whatever state). most of the time this just lightly scratches your paint but sometimes it's much more severe. I know if I ever had panels attached to the sides I would have ripped them off. I have broken a side window with a branch before. the paint you learn to live with but solar panels I wouldn't even try. highdesertranger

 

[Zil]

Bob, time to change the name to Not-cheap-rv-living?

 

[Fearnoevil]

Haha Zil, very funny :dodgy:
Make that Not-SO-Cheap-Rv-Living, lol. I prefer to think of it as cheap being in the eye of the beholder - spending more now on a large enough solar system potentially could save me $$$ down the road, plus as I age there's a certain price I'm willing to pay for one or two creature comforts :angel:

Highdesert, I hear ya, I've put more than a few scratches on vehicles knocking around the boonies - most painful one was on a brand-new F-350, creased the dually wheel well, that hurt, lol. But I'm sure if I go with that setup that I'll avoid those situations, really not planning on taking it off-road much anyway. But I suppose if I do there's always the option of taking em off and storing them till the fun's over