From what you describe. Your starter battery is in a dangerous state. Please be very careful working around that battery. All cells should act the same. When one or two are doing something the others are not, such as bubbling, it is time to suit up, eye protection, and plenty of rinse water available.
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Vanada
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Weight said:
Thanks for the heads up! Gloves, goggles, rinse water and baking soda it is then. This is probably a good time to mention I have experience with battery acid spilling all down me from chest to knees. It was neither pleasant, nor as bad as I might have expected. Not an event I will chance repeating however.
For what it's worth whilst I have the hydrometer out I'll check the house batteries too.
Vanada
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House battery cells = All good! I figured they would be but nice to confirm.
Starter battery: Only two cells made the bulb float in the hydrometer and those sat at around 1200. That was without attempting a recharge so it was resting at 11.9v. One thing I forgot to mention is that the van hasn't actually been driven anywhere for about 3.5 weeks. I've kept it in front of the apartment to work on and dare not move it for fear of not being able to park anywhere nearby again.
The date code on the label didn't print fully (typical) but I can just see the beginning of the year number and it looks pretty well like a 5. So either February 2005 or February 2015. Frankly it looks more like a two year old battery than a twelve year old battery.
Starter battery: Only two cells made the bulb float in the hydrometer and those sat at around 1200. That was without attempting a recharge so it was resting at 11.9v. One thing I forgot to mention is that the van hasn't actually been driven anywhere for about 3.5 weeks. I've kept it in front of the apartment to work on and dare not move it for fear of not being able to park anywhere nearby again.
The date code on the label didn't print fully (typical) but I can just see the beginning of the year number and it looks pretty well like a 5. So either February 2005 or February 2015. Frankly it looks more like a two year old battery than a twelve year old battery.
Vanada
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Since it went flat I still haven't once tried simply recharging it. I'm going to do that first then re-read with the hydrometer.
SternWake
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Going flat in 3 weeks of non use indicates a fairly significant parasitic draw on the battery, or stored at a very undercharged state, or a battery whose days are numbered.
Given the overfilled cells and the bubbling cells when no charging/ discharging currents were applied, I would consider that battery to be worth its weight in lead.
Disconnect ground cable from van when charging it, if you still decide to charge it. I'd treat a battery with symptoms of yours like a live grenade. Something Ain't right with it, and I would not care enough to find out why, unless i was wearing a lab coat, pretentious glasses, and a bow tie, and standing behind and under polycarbonate shielding
Given the overfilled cells and the bubbling cells when no charging/ discharging currents were applied, I would consider that battery to be worth its weight in lead.
Disconnect ground cable from van when charging it, if you still decide to charge it. I'd treat a battery with symptoms of yours like a live grenade. Something Ain't right with it, and I would not care enough to find out why, unless i was wearing a lab coat, pretentious glasses, and a bow tie, and standing behind and under polycarbonate shielding
Vanada
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SternWake said:
Hmmm. To test properly with a hydrometer, I need to charge the battery. To test for parasitic draw, I need a charged battery. Maybe I did cause some draw issue when I installed the solenoid so I'd like to find out what's going on. Of course I'll monitor it closely whilst charging then report my findings. Nothing like a good mystery to keep me interested! I'm still at the stage where I'm curious enough to spend the extra time learning rather than ditch it and move on like an experienced person might.
One thing that's worth noting is that the battery has a 30 month warranty. I don't yet know what would qualify for a free replacement though.
Vanada
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ok, a little update on this adventure.
After a downpour the other day I took a look at the battery and it was once again covered in water only on one side (as was the solenoid, the terminals for which are flash rusting). That's the side of the "overfilled" cells. The water was sitting down in the crevices around the cap which has tiny venting slots in two corners underneath. I just feel like it's too much of a coincidence that those cells are as high as they are when constantly getting covered in rainwater.
I put the battery on a friends' charger (not automotive specific but had a lead acid mode and was very tune-able). I spent the day babysitting it and didn't charge it as long as I could have due to cells overflowing and bubbling a bit. On the whole, it took some charge which was enough to start and no longer dips to 9v when trying to start. The hydrometer readings still aren't great. Probably it's worth replacing. Just so y'all know, I did the charge with caps off and away from the vehicle so totally disconnected otherwise. All safety precautions were taken.
Finally, I checked for parasitic draw. Read 0.25A which is a bit high. I ran out of time this evening to begin diagnosing it so I'll be pulling fuses one by one tomorrow to try and get to the bottom of it. It could still come down to my isolator install (Oh yeah, I did test with and without the house battery breaker connected. No change.) At worst there's an alternator issue although I already checked for fried diodes and it appeared to pass the test.
My other plan of action is to make a rain guard for the passenger side engine bay and cake some more dielectric grease onto the solenoid.
All of this reminds me that a successful day is one on which something is learned.
After a downpour the other day I took a look at the battery and it was once again covered in water only on one side (as was the solenoid, the terminals for which are flash rusting). That's the side of the "overfilled" cells. The water was sitting down in the crevices around the cap which has tiny venting slots in two corners underneath. I just feel like it's too much of a coincidence that those cells are as high as they are when constantly getting covered in rainwater.
I put the battery on a friends' charger (not automotive specific but had a lead acid mode and was very tune-able). I spent the day babysitting it and didn't charge it as long as I could have due to cells overflowing and bubbling a bit. On the whole, it took some charge which was enough to start and no longer dips to 9v when trying to start. The hydrometer readings still aren't great. Probably it's worth replacing. Just so y'all know, I did the charge with caps off and away from the vehicle so totally disconnected otherwise. All safety precautions were taken.
Finally, I checked for parasitic draw. Read 0.25A which is a bit high. I ran out of time this evening to begin diagnosing it so I'll be pulling fuses one by one tomorrow to try and get to the bottom of it. It could still come down to my isolator install (Oh yeah, I did test with and without the house battery breaker connected. No change.) At worst there's an alternator issue although I already checked for fried diodes and it appeared to pass the test.
My other plan of action is to make a rain guard for the passenger side engine bay and cake some more dielectric grease onto the solenoid.
All of this reminds me that a successful day is one on which something is learned.
highdesertranger
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ah I see, you have one of those batteries with the recessed fill holes. I changed my mind, yes those could be getting rain water in them. .25A is not very much for a parasitic draw. highdesertranger
SternWake
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A constant parasitic 0.25amp load is 1 AH consumed every 4 hours, 6Ah each 24 hours
A group 27 battery has about 100AH capacity.
A healthy fully charged group 27 battery will be 100% discharged by a constant 0.25 amp load in ~17 days.
Check parasitic draw with all doors closed too, even if dome lights are switched off there is a time delay relay that might be drawing about 0.2 amps any time the door is open.
I have to rotate my headlamp switch all the way clockwise to stop this parasitic draw I did not know existed until I got a battery monitor and saw this mysterious 0.2 amp load after I shut off everything else that could be drawing juice from battery.
A group 27 battery has about 100AH capacity.
A healthy fully charged group 27 battery will be 100% discharged by a constant 0.25 amp load in ~17 days.
Check parasitic draw with all doors closed too, even if dome lights are switched off there is a time delay relay that might be drawing about 0.2 amps any time the door is open.
I have to rotate my headlamp switch all the way clockwise to stop this parasitic draw I did not know existed until I got a battery monitor and saw this mysterious 0.2 amp load after I shut off everything else that could be drawing juice from battery.
Vanada
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Did the parasitic draw test yesterday. Narrowed it to about 0.13A on the power locks and 0.13A on "Radio-B" which does the radio but also, frustratingly, the gear selection lights on the dash. I did have the fuse removed until I went to drive somewhere and realized that. Both are pending further investigation but I installed a new stereo a while back so that's an obvious red flag. Was real careful to tape everything up that was disused etc. but it will be easy to re-review.
The nice thing is that I was able to get the draw down to zero by removing those two fuses so no alternator troubles! I'm getting there
The nice thing is that I was able to get the draw down to zero by removing those two fuses so no alternator troubles! I'm getting there
SternWake
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caretaker said:
There should not be any parasitic draw.
parasitic draws on non RV vehicles are usually the stereo memory, engine computer memory, key fob door locks awaiting the signal, perhaps the time delay relay on the courtesy dome lights. Probably a shit load of other parasitic/quiescent draws on the newest vehicles too and I will not pretend to know what they are
Smaller parasitic loads on house batteries are the fridge compressor controller awaiting the signal from thermostat to fire fridge(0.02amps) the solar controller itself and perhaps battery monitor consumes something, not sure what, and my TV consumes 0.12 amps awaiting the signal from the remote to power up, so I put a switch on its power feed.
My dc to dc laptop power transformer/brick also draws about 0.1 amps plugged into 12vDC but not my laptop. My USB ports also have a parasitic draw, the Blue Seas is 0.015amps, not sure of the other 2 which plug into Ciggy receptacles( the horror!). Both of those are switched though.
None of my house paraisitic loads are really a concern with 200 watts of solar on the roof.
My 800 watt MSW inverter draws 0.68 amps turned on powering nothing, but this drops to 0.29 amps after some period of time.
My 400 wattt PSW inverter draws 0.24 amps turned on powering nothing.
It is said some inverters turned off and obviously powering nothing will have a small parasitic load. I've not tried to test mine. That giant spark that occurs when first hooking an inverter to a battery, would likely blow a DMM's fuse when hooked inline so I will not measure that. I doubt my clamp meter could read such a low current and unfortunately does not register surge amps.
0.13 amps for a stereo memory seems excessive to me. I've never checked mine, nor do I have a switch, or pull the fuse when the vehicle sits when I am not around. It is hooked to my house battery fuse block anyway, and now I only use 1 battery for everything.
Vanada
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Still going with this, bear with me!
Parasitic draw: eliminated.
- The stereo had an auto off feature I wasn't using but I was able to measure 0.13A on its constant power source with that feature disabled so the proof is in the pudding.
- For the power locks it seems I just wasn't giving it enough time to settle after connecting with the multimeter. It drops to 0.1A after about 10 seconds.
- Still unsure why the PRNDL lights go out when I take out the Radio-B fuse out. That irks me because the Haynes wiring diagrams don't suggest it unless I'm just reading them wrong.
Also worth noting; In previous posts I talked about the key Accessory position when in fact I meant Run.
Having got a bit of charge into the starter battery and making a rain guard (plus we've had nothing but sun this week!) I'm seeing if I can get it back up to full charge, let it settle for 24 hours then get the hydrometer on it again. It occurred to me thanks to another thread here that since the interconnect goes both ways I could use the solar to try and get it back up. Currently I have no way of forcing an interconnect other than to trigger the solenoid by turning the key to Run, which obviously puts a small load on the battery but what's going in should outweigh what's going out... Right?
My findings are these:
- Resting starter battery voltage of ~12.53V measured at the ciggy power outlet wires.
- With NO interconnect, starter battery voltage with the key in run drops to ~11.89V
- With NO interconnect, fully charged house batteries and decent sunlight, voltage reading on the charge controller is 14.8V as is to be expected.
- With NO interconnect and failing sunlight, the charge controller started reading 13.2V and I had 6.53V and 6.7V across the posts on the house batteries. A bit of a difference between them which I'm not sure if I should be bothered about or not.
- With interconnect, the starter battery starts accepting solar charge via the house batteries. Voltage on the charge controller would go from 14.2V-14.8V to 13.2V-13.8V depending on sunlight.
- With interconnect the starter battery voltage was jumping from 11.9V or so to 12.7V-12.8V but would slowly start dropping from there. I didn't monitor it for that long because this confused me.
- With interconnect the house batteries dropped about 0.3V although now I think about it I might not have flipped the switch for this one and that could have been the failing light... Not the best test in the world huh?
I think that's everything I observed. What I want to make sure of is this: Would making this sort of connection put the house batteries at risk in any way? Could they become overcharged etc. since they're funneling power into the starter battery? Essentially it's the same as what's happening when the vehicle is running but without the alternator feeding the system. Definitely still have a bit of a knowledge gap here but I intend to address that by filling it!
Tom
Parasitic draw: eliminated.
- The stereo had an auto off feature I wasn't using but I was able to measure 0.13A on its constant power source with that feature disabled so the proof is in the pudding.
- For the power locks it seems I just wasn't giving it enough time to settle after connecting with the multimeter. It drops to 0.1A after about 10 seconds.
- Still unsure why the PRNDL lights go out when I take out the Radio-B fuse out. That irks me because the Haynes wiring diagrams don't suggest it unless I'm just reading them wrong.
Also worth noting; In previous posts I talked about the key Accessory position when in fact I meant Run.
Having got a bit of charge into the starter battery and making a rain guard (plus we've had nothing but sun this week!) I'm seeing if I can get it back up to full charge, let it settle for 24 hours then get the hydrometer on it again. It occurred to me thanks to another thread here that since the interconnect goes both ways I could use the solar to try and get it back up. Currently I have no way of forcing an interconnect other than to trigger the solenoid by turning the key to Run, which obviously puts a small load on the battery but what's going in should outweigh what's going out... Right?
My findings are these:
- Resting starter battery voltage of ~12.53V measured at the ciggy power outlet wires.
- With NO interconnect, starter battery voltage with the key in run drops to ~11.89V
- With NO interconnect, fully charged house batteries and decent sunlight, voltage reading on the charge controller is 14.8V as is to be expected.
- With NO interconnect and failing sunlight, the charge controller started reading 13.2V and I had 6.53V and 6.7V across the posts on the house batteries. A bit of a difference between them which I'm not sure if I should be bothered about or not.
- With interconnect, the starter battery starts accepting solar charge via the house batteries. Voltage on the charge controller would go from 14.2V-14.8V to 13.2V-13.8V depending on sunlight.
- With interconnect the starter battery voltage was jumping from 11.9V or so to 12.7V-12.8V but would slowly start dropping from there. I didn't monitor it for that long because this confused me.
- With interconnect the house batteries dropped about 0.3V although now I think about it I might not have flipped the switch for this one and that could have been the failing light... Not the best test in the world huh?
I think that's everything I observed. What I want to make sure of is this: Would making this sort of connection put the house batteries at risk in any way? Could they become overcharged etc. since they're funneling power into the starter battery? Essentially it's the same as what's happening when the vehicle is running but without the alternator feeding the system. Definitely still have a bit of a knowledge gap here but I intend to address that by filling it!
Tom
SternWake
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Your starter battery dropping from 12.54 to 11.89 with the key on is a lot of drop, but I don;t know how much load there is on yours. Pretty much says the battery is weak unless the pre starter engagement load with key to ON/run is 25+ amps, which I doubt.
Mine is about 3 to 4 amps once the fuel pump has built up the PSI to the 15 it requires, but yours might be more amperage for 50PSI or whatever your engine requires.
If you want your solar to charge the engine battery with engine off, hook both ring terminals of the big wires to the same stud on the solenoid. This defeats the solenoid, and you should not leave the house batteries connected to starter battery overnight in this fashion. With no sun holding the batteries at a higher voltage, your house batteries will be feeding the weak starter battery overnight. Perhaps one or two nights would be OK, but not for a week. Don't degrade the house batteries trying to feed a dying compromised starting battery which yours is.
Some people make a simple jumper to bridge the solenoid instead of moving the big ring terminals and leave it connected/ stacked to one solenoid stud . The Jumper is always hot, so when it is not connected as a jumper, have a way to insure it cannot touch any grounded metal or you will blow a fuse if thick wire is used or melt /smoke the insulation of thinner jumper wire with a direct short to ground.
The Solenoid jumper wire can also be employed to jump engine battery, but then it needs to be thick 4awg or thicker. If the solenoid jumper wire is used only for solar charging of engine battery, then you can use 10AWG.
Mine is about 3 to 4 amps once the fuel pump has built up the PSI to the 15 it requires, but yours might be more amperage for 50PSI or whatever your engine requires.
If you want your solar to charge the engine battery with engine off, hook both ring terminals of the big wires to the same stud on the solenoid. This defeats the solenoid, and you should not leave the house batteries connected to starter battery overnight in this fashion. With no sun holding the batteries at a higher voltage, your house batteries will be feeding the weak starter battery overnight. Perhaps one or two nights would be OK, but not for a week. Don't degrade the house batteries trying to feed a dying compromised starting battery which yours is.
Some people make a simple jumper to bridge the solenoid instead of moving the big ring terminals and leave it connected/ stacked to one solenoid stud . The Jumper is always hot, so when it is not connected as a jumper, have a way to insure it cannot touch any grounded metal or you will blow a fuse if thick wire is used or melt /smoke the insulation of thinner jumper wire with a direct short to ground.
The Solenoid jumper wire can also be employed to jump engine battery, but then it needs to be thick 4awg or thicker. If the solenoid jumper wire is used only for solar charging of engine battery, then you can use 10AWG.
Vanada
Well-known member
Perfect, sounds like I'm on the right track then. I actually thought about making a jumper or stacking the solenoid terminals but because; I was working in spare time, the terminals are covered in dielectric grease now, and the nuts awkward to undo in its current location... I was just a bit too lazy.
Actually, since the solenoid is triggered when the key is in run I can jump start using the house batteries anyway. Theoretically they're always doing so unless I've disconnected the breaker on the house battery end. I think I mentioned that in a previous post and SternWake's response was that it was no real detriment other that more cycles on the solenoid, to set up volt meters etc.
Now there are two schools of thought rattling around my brain regarding the starter battery if it is indeed a bit wonky:
1) It still starts the engine so who cares? Run it into the ground!
2) Bad cells in a system with the house batteries is bad juju and it should be replaced post haste!
I know what you're going to suggest SternWake
Actually, since the solenoid is triggered when the key is in run I can jump start using the house batteries anyway. Theoretically they're always doing so unless I've disconnected the breaker on the house battery end. I think I mentioned that in a previous post and SternWake's response was that it was no real detriment other that more cycles on the solenoid, to set up volt meters etc.
Now there are two schools of thought rattling around my brain regarding the starter battery if it is indeed a bit wonky:
1) It still starts the engine so who cares? Run it into the ground!
2) Bad cells in a system with the house batteries is bad juju and it should be replaced post haste!
I know what you're going to suggest SternWake
SternWake
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Nah, run the starter battery to the ground, you can always self jump when it fails, but if a Cell does short then get it out of there. It should only read about 10.5v rested when a cell shorts.
My buddy has a starting battery 4 years old and will not get over 1.200 specific gravity held at 16v for 6 hours, and that was several months ago. It still starts a Diesel and has not seen any charging other than its alternator since.
It really does not require much to start a modern fuel injected engine, especially in warm weather.
My buddy has a starting battery 4 years old and will not get over 1.200 specific gravity held at 16v for 6 hours, and that was several months ago. It still starts a Diesel and has not seen any charging other than its alternator since.
It really does not require much to start a modern fuel injected engine, especially in warm weather.
Vanada
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SternWake said:
And just to be clear, the fact that it will sometimes be in parallel with the house batteries is nothing to be concerned about as far as their lifespan goes?
My system goes PV > MPPT > House Batteries > Breaker > Solenoid > Starter battery (by way of the alternator stud). So there is no direct connection between the MPPT and starter which would be more ideal. It has to go through the house batteries first. Maybe I'm repeating myself but just so as not to be misunderstood.
SternWake
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No worries, just do not leave the house batteries in parallel with the old starter battery for any length of time when there is no charging occurring. New and old batteries in hard parallel is unwise. temporary is OK
And the solar current for Engine battery will not be going through house batteries innards, only the battery terminals where the ring terminals touch.
And the solar current for Engine battery will not be going through house batteries innards, only the battery terminals where the ring terminals touch.
Vanada
Well-known member
SternWake said:
Got it! Those were the missing links in my mind.
The only thing left nibbling now which I will research soon is how a power source such as an alternator "decides" where to send power, how much of it, how it manages the voltage regulator etc. when two batteries are connected. Seems like if the starter battery is always low having the house batteries harvest from the alternator is moot because they'd never see any power. I know that's probably wrong hence why I need to learn about it first.
