regis101
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I was reading a pdf manual from Samlex and liked how user friendly it seems.
Too many options out there.
Too many options out there.
Samlex products.
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user 37446
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I was looking at the Samlex 50 PDF and I believe bulk was only 13.5, Absorb was 14 to 14.4. Based on what I've seen on these forums before, bulk should be the highest voltage, so why is the Samlex 13.5? Or am I wrong (as usual) about something? :huh:
Thank you for your responses. I can't copy the PDF but I'm sure it was 13.5 bulk and float.
Thank you for your responses. I can't copy the PDF but I'm sure it was 13.5 bulk and float.
Read it again, starting p11.
First Bulk is a bit lower, but then next stage has another CC to a higher CV
13.5 is for Power Supply mode, when constant Loads are always keeping the charger from knowing the bank's SoC.
14.4V for normal charging mode FLA or AGM, 14V for gel.
Absorb is nice and long, or stops at 5A, which would be fine for 200+ AH bank
First Bulk is a bit lower, but then next stage has another CC to a higher CV
13.5 is for Power Supply mode, when constant Loads are always keeping the charger from knowing the bank's SoC.
14.4V for normal charging mode FLA or AGM, 14V for gel.
Absorb is nice and long, or stops at 5A, which would be fine for 200+ AH bank
Yes. I sized my charger to operate on a small portable generator. Two engineers formed their own companies. Sterling and ProMariner share the same patents and designs. I have set "bulk" to 14.8 volts. This is called conditioning in the manual. It is a preset, "Flooded Preset 1 Profile" My unit's charging cycle is more complicated than that implies.
If you scroll down to the chart, it pictures how my charger operates. 3 stages, with a fourth push button start Equalization charge. The three stages are called "Constant Current Charge", "Topping Charge", "Float Charge". http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery
user 37446
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Ok, I thought bulk was always the highest stage, after all, it's the time the battery can accept the most, right? Either way, their engineers know more than I do...
Bulk is first, "Constant Current Charge", highest amps flow, seeking a setpoint but up to resistance (battery chemistry/physics) how much, how long to get there.
Absorb is next, "Constant Voltage" stage, once setpoint is reached, usually same as target voltage above
( batteryuniversity's Topping Charge ? very odd, not a canonical reference source that BTW,) .
Only once amps have dropped to a very low setpoint bank is Full, should voltage drop to Float. This is where many charge sources fall down.
Absorb is next, "Constant Voltage" stage, once setpoint is reached, usually same as target voltage above
( batteryuniversity's Topping Charge ? very odd, not a canonical reference source that BTW,) .
Only once amps have dropped to a very low setpoint bank is Full, should voltage drop to Float. This is where many charge sources fall down.
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John is, of course, absolutely right. But it can be explained in somewhat simpler terms, which might help a few of the people reading here.
When this kind of battery charger is first turned on, it immediately applies full power. We're talking amps here, not volts. The battery might be 12.2 volts, or 11.9 volts or whatever, the charger will charge at maximum, which means if it's a 20 amp charger it will provide 20 amps, if it's a 50 amp charger, it will provide 50 amps, etc. This is the bulk stage or "Constant Current" John mentioned.
As it does this, the batteries voltage will start to rise. The battery charger monitors the battery's voltage while it's providing maximum current. Eventually, the battery's voltage will reach the so-called "set point" that is either built in or that you chose from various available options. Let's say it's 14.7 volts. At this point, the charger begins to cut back the amount of amperage it provides in order to keep the batter's voltage from going any higher. If it didn't do this, the battery voltage would just keep going up, up up, until the battery was damaged from being "overcharged" This is the absorption stage or "Constant Voltage" stage. The battery remains at 14.7 volts as the number of amps the charger provides continues to fall.
Eventually, the battery charger decides that the battery is "fully charged". As Sternwake like to point out, most of them do this very badly, and it really isn't fully charged at this point, but the battery charger THINKS it is. It then cuts back to the so called float stage, where it provides a minimal amount of current at something like 13.4 or 13.6 volts.
An equalization charge is a deliberate overcharge. The charger provides full amperage until the battery voltage is driven up to the 16 to 16.5 volt range. This causes some of the battery's electrolyte to actually "boil off", which is why it is only done to batteries where you can replace the missing electrolyte with distilled water as needed, NEVER sealed batteries. This equalization does two things, it causes the electrolyte to mix thoroughly, and it causes any sulfation on the battery plates to hopefully convert back to lead.
(In flooded batteries, electrolyte can stratify, which means the sulfuric acid can be stronger on the bottom than on the top, which causes the lead plates on the bottom to be affected more and get thinner than the top of the plates. A properly equalized battery will last longer than a battery that is never equalized will.)
When this kind of battery charger is first turned on, it immediately applies full power. We're talking amps here, not volts. The battery might be 12.2 volts, or 11.9 volts or whatever, the charger will charge at maximum, which means if it's a 20 amp charger it will provide 20 amps, if it's a 50 amp charger, it will provide 50 amps, etc. This is the bulk stage or "Constant Current" John mentioned.
As it does this, the batteries voltage will start to rise. The battery charger monitors the battery's voltage while it's providing maximum current. Eventually, the battery's voltage will reach the so-called "set point" that is either built in or that you chose from various available options. Let's say it's 14.7 volts. At this point, the charger begins to cut back the amount of amperage it provides in order to keep the batter's voltage from going any higher. If it didn't do this, the battery voltage would just keep going up, up up, until the battery was damaged from being "overcharged" This is the absorption stage or "Constant Voltage" stage. The battery remains at 14.7 volts as the number of amps the charger provides continues to fall.
Eventually, the battery charger decides that the battery is "fully charged". As Sternwake like to point out, most of them do this very badly, and it really isn't fully charged at this point, but the battery charger THINKS it is. It then cuts back to the so called float stage, where it provides a minimal amount of current at something like 13.4 or 13.6 volts.
An equalization charge is a deliberate overcharge. The charger provides full amperage until the battery voltage is driven up to the 16 to 16.5 volt range. This causes some of the battery's electrolyte to actually "boil off", which is why it is only done to batteries where you can replace the missing electrolyte with distilled water as needed, NEVER sealed batteries. This equalization does two things, it causes the electrolyte to mix thoroughly, and it causes any sulfation on the battery plates to hopefully convert back to lead.
(In flooded batteries, electrolyte can stratify, which means the sulfuric acid can be stronger on the bottom than on the top, which causes the lead plates on the bottom to be affected more and get thinner than the top of the plates. A properly equalized battery will last longer than a battery that is never equalized will.)
Lifeline does have an equalization protocol, only AGM mfg that does.
16+V is very high, really should check with bank mfg and follow their specs, MANUALLY. Avoid "smart" chargers that claim to automate conditioning, unless you confirm their protocol is in line with bank mfg specs.
Many electronics will fry that high, so good example why a separate "load buss" is good design, isolate all loads before bringing that kind of current online.
16+V is very high, really should check with bank mfg and follow their specs, MANUALLY. Avoid "smart" chargers that claim to automate conditioning, unless you confirm their protocol is in line with bank mfg specs.
Many electronics will fry that high, so good example why a separate "load buss" is good design, isolate all loads before bringing that kind of current online.
Not sure what you mean, no inherent difference between charge sources, electricity is electricity. If you mean that most mains chargers are a lot more primitive than good solar controllers, yes that's true.
Anyway my point wrt the MeanWell is automatic Stopping of absorb charge input - not too soon, not too long.
Better units let you adjust the parameters according to your bank's needs.
But at a minimum, I would at least want to know what the canned algorithm is.
Anyway my point wrt the MeanWell is automatic Stopping of absorb charge input - not too soon, not too long.
Better units let you adjust the parameters according to your bank's needs.
But at a minimum, I would at least want to know what the canned algorithm is.
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I don't know of any grid powered chargeds under 400$ which allow much in the way of user selectable/ adjustable profiles.
Most are guessing how long to hold absorption voltage, and then they throw that human soothing green light full charge indicator.
When deeply cycling batteries day after day, it is important that the charging source gets to 100%, and the required time at absorption voltage will always be changing.
I am not familiar with the meanwell 3 stage charger. Only my rsp-500-15 adjustable voltage power supply. I have confidence in its build quality and its internal parts. Likely it has thousands of hours in it since I first got it in September of 2014.
I get irritated when a charging source dictates the voltage. I understand the desire for automatic, but few automatic sources get it right.
My ideal automatic charging source would have an Ammeter on the battery cable and one on the DC load cable and be able to be programmed as to how many amps flowing only into battery, are required for triggering float voltage. The max potential current adjustment would be nice for smaller batteries that have current limitations.
A time based algorithm might be good enough for most. or it might be horribly inadequate on a specific batery in a specific usage pattern.
While keeping a battery above 50% is wise, going below is not an instant dceath sentence. The battery drained to 30% but promptly recharged to a true 100% Stater of charge, will likely outlast the battery never drawn below to 55% state of charge, and recharged only to 98% time after time.
How much of a difference less than ideal leads to, interm of moentary savibngs by less often battery replacements should be taken into acount. not knowing the variables, it is kind of impossible to say how much longer any battery will last in usage pattern A vs pattern B. the best one can do is try and ensure 100% recharges as often as possible. 100% recharges are done by holding absorption voltage as long as required after any discharge.
Charging at voltages less than absorption voltage takes longer, and might not ever be able to fully charge the more mature battery. Equalizing a flooded battery at upto 16.2v is kind of like restoring a battery to its maximum potential remaining capacity. The maintenance EQ charge can greatly extend the lifespans of flooded batteries. How often to apply one varies widely and can only really be determined by a hydrometer. it is very likely that even if one holds absorption voltage until amps taper to a preset known low level, that after 30 deep cycles, a specific gravity reading on all 6 cells will reveal some or all cells at 1.260 when a true full charge is 1.275+.
The 16.2v EQ charge applied until all cells are again 1.275+ is the happy ending for a hard working battery, and it is best if this EQ charge does not require hours and hours which might be required if there are 100 deep cycles accumulated, but the 30 to 45 minutes required if performed after 25 to 30 cycles.
If it takes hours and hours of 16.2v for specific gravity to max out, then one should consider performing EQ charges more often. EQ charges are abusive to the positive plates on batteries, but not as abusive as chronic undercharging and the resultant sulfation.
Choose how much effort you are willing to apply towards achieving good to excellent battery longevity. it can be taken to extremes that cost more than simply replacing them earlier. I am trying to achieve as best as possible with my battery, just to see what that is, but not everybody needs to do this, or even come close to this.
batteries are only rented. the length of that rental contract is variable and is directly related to how the battery is treated. Expecting Automatic chargers to achieve ideal is unwise. Spending hundreds for the Alpha and Omega programmable charger, to attempt ideal, well how many more batteries could have been bought and employed for those extra hundreds? What is the time to accomplish the return on investment?
Unknown guesses.
I choose to manually hold absorption voltage until my Ammeter says 0.45 or less. My solar controller can do this automatically. I enjoy that, but a plug in charger, unless one gets into the 500$ ranges, cannot do that, and I prefer to have a plug in charging source that seeks and holds the voltaeg I have chosen for as long as I dictate. I could use a spring wound timer to give some level of automation, but never have seen the need.
I have held absorption voltage much longer than required many times. Am at the 600 deep cycle mark and while the battery is obviously degraded, it is far from the recycling bin too.
Most are guessing how long to hold absorption voltage, and then they throw that human soothing green light full charge indicator.
When deeply cycling batteries day after day, it is important that the charging source gets to 100%, and the required time at absorption voltage will always be changing.
I am not familiar with the meanwell 3 stage charger. Only my rsp-500-15 adjustable voltage power supply. I have confidence in its build quality and its internal parts. Likely it has thousands of hours in it since I first got it in September of 2014.
I get irritated when a charging source dictates the voltage. I understand the desire for automatic, but few automatic sources get it right.
My ideal automatic charging source would have an Ammeter on the battery cable and one on the DC load cable and be able to be programmed as to how many amps flowing only into battery, are required for triggering float voltage. The max potential current adjustment would be nice for smaller batteries that have current limitations.
A time based algorithm might be good enough for most. or it might be horribly inadequate on a specific batery in a specific usage pattern.
While keeping a battery above 50% is wise, going below is not an instant dceath sentence. The battery drained to 30% but promptly recharged to a true 100% Stater of charge, will likely outlast the battery never drawn below to 55% state of charge, and recharged only to 98% time after time.
How much of a difference less than ideal leads to, interm of moentary savibngs by less often battery replacements should be taken into acount. not knowing the variables, it is kind of impossible to say how much longer any battery will last in usage pattern A vs pattern B. the best one can do is try and ensure 100% recharges as often as possible. 100% recharges are done by holding absorption voltage as long as required after any discharge.
Charging at voltages less than absorption voltage takes longer, and might not ever be able to fully charge the more mature battery. Equalizing a flooded battery at upto 16.2v is kind of like restoring a battery to its maximum potential remaining capacity. The maintenance EQ charge can greatly extend the lifespans of flooded batteries. How often to apply one varies widely and can only really be determined by a hydrometer. it is very likely that even if one holds absorption voltage until amps taper to a preset known low level, that after 30 deep cycles, a specific gravity reading on all 6 cells will reveal some or all cells at 1.260 when a true full charge is 1.275+.
The 16.2v EQ charge applied until all cells are again 1.275+ is the happy ending for a hard working battery, and it is best if this EQ charge does not require hours and hours which might be required if there are 100 deep cycles accumulated, but the 30 to 45 minutes required if performed after 25 to 30 cycles.
If it takes hours and hours of 16.2v for specific gravity to max out, then one should consider performing EQ charges more often. EQ charges are abusive to the positive plates on batteries, but not as abusive as chronic undercharging and the resultant sulfation.
Choose how much effort you are willing to apply towards achieving good to excellent battery longevity. it can be taken to extremes that cost more than simply replacing them earlier. I am trying to achieve as best as possible with my battery, just to see what that is, but not everybody needs to do this, or even come close to this.
batteries are only rented. the length of that rental contract is variable and is directly related to how the battery is treated. Expecting Automatic chargers to achieve ideal is unwise. Spending hundreds for the Alpha and Omega programmable charger, to attempt ideal, well how many more batteries could have been bought and employed for those extra hundreds? What is the time to accomplish the return on investment?
Unknown guesses.
I choose to manually hold absorption voltage until my Ammeter says 0.45 or less. My solar controller can do this automatically. I enjoy that, but a plug in charger, unless one gets into the 500$ ranges, cannot do that, and I prefer to have a plug in charging source that seeks and holds the voltaeg I have chosen for as long as I dictate. I could use a spring wound timer to give some level of automation, but never have seen the need.
I have held absorption voltage much longer than required many times. Am at the 600 deep cycle mark and while the battery is obviously degraded, it is far from the recycling bin too.
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