Troubleshoot battery system

[elderblaze]

Hey guys, I came to this community because I feel like you may have more experience with these types of problems, but I am actually a locksmith and was trying to troubleshoot the electrical system in my work van. Let me explain what I have, and what is going on.

2015 Ford Transit

Starter battery  > CTEK 250SA > House battery (Renogy 100 AH, AGM) > Inverter > Power Strip > electronics.

10 Gauge wire from starter to CTEK as per recommended instructions, all positive connections to and from the battery and inverter are fused where appropriate. 00 Gauge wire used aprox 3 ft from battery to inverter, and 3 ft from battery to chasis ground (negative). All connections are secure. Battery is 10 months old, as is the rest of the equipment. The CTEK device is a DC to DC Charger for those who don't know, and the 10 Gauge wire is appropriate as it pulls 20 amp max from the starter battery. It's a smart device that has multiple stages and is designed to boost or buck the voltage/current for AGM batteries. The Inverter is a 2000 watt pure sinewave Xantrex Prowatt 2000

I set all this up about a year ago, bought all the equipment at the same time and it worked wonderful, when I first set it up, I could run all my battery chargers, 2 key machines, my laptop, laser printer, etc all at the same time without tripping any current overload or fuses, and without any blinking lights or any such oddities. It ran like a champ.

Recently I started having problems, particularly when my bigger key duplicator's power on, the inverter will sound a low voltage warning and kick off for a second and then power back up, this DOES NOT happen when the ignition is on and the alternator is running, only when shut down, this never was an issue until recently. I drive quite abit, but alot less recently due to covid-19. Still, I feel like I drive alot considering the amount of usage in the back, I could drive an hour or more for every 10 minutes of usage, loads are typically lite, a fan, battery chargers, a laptop, and occasional use of Key Duplicators for no more then 10 minutes at a time. It should be noted the CTEK charges up to 20 Amps at 14.4 volts.

I am trying to troubleshoot this issue as it seems to be getting worse, and I suspect it is the battery. I have double checked all connections, and checked that the CTEK device is indeed putting out 14.4 volts, and it is. If I let the battery sit for 12 hours and check it, the voltage is usually 12.88-13.00 volts, but as soon as a lite load gets put on the battery it craters shortly thereafter, dropping down to 12.4 or lower volts. This then requires me to start my truck to finish the job at hand.

I have had less then great support from the folks at Renogy, I emailed them and they said to call them and have a Multimeter in hand, I tried calling and was like 30 customers back, after an hour on hold and only moving up 5 spots I hung up. Even if they determine that it is a faulty battery, are they expecting me to pay return shipping on this 66 lb battery? This is for a work truck, and it's my livelyhood, is the replacement battery gonna be a turd too?

I don't know 100% if this battery is the problem, that's why im asking here. I think I have 3 options moving forward, disconnect the battery and take it to a battery shop and have it load tested. Buy a AC/110v charger and try charging it up fully and seeing what that  yields, or simply replacing the battery with a local brand, im considering Interstate Battery AGM-31 (100 AH, 3 year warranty, AGM). As they are local and have many dealers and stand behind their product. I would hate to replace the battery and then find out there is something else going on however, and I don't really want to buy a wall charger at this point, I don't feel like I should have to.

Thoughts!
TIA.
Lonely Locksmith

 

[Trebor English]

Do you know how often your battery was fully charged during the last year? How often did you drive for 6 or 8 hours at a time? The symptom the battery battery is displaying is capacity loss probably due to under charging. Since it is a sealed battery you cannot use a hydrometer to measure the density of the sulfuric acid so the easy test is not possible. The remaining possible test is to charge the battery fully by holding 14.4 volts and monitor the charging current. When it drops to 0.5 amps, 1/2% of 100 amps, it is full. That can reasonably be expected to take many hours. If the current never drops below 0.5 amps that's your next indication of failure.Then apply a known, low current, measured load of about 10 to 20 amps and see if it delivers 50 amp hours before it drops below 11 volts.

The first battery, the learning battery, should be a cheap one. Consider replacing the AGM battery with a flooded deep cycle battery like a pair of 6 volt golf cart batteries. A hydrometer will let you find out if you are charging it enough before it dies.. Adding water once a month may seem onerous but that seems to me to be easier than replacing the battery once a year.

Rather than depending on driving a lot, consider a solar panel.

 

[Truman]

Yes

 

[elderblaze]

I'll say again, this is my lively hood. It's not a pleasure vehicle. I do appreciate the feedback. Honestly, I just opened my company, and this is my first service vehicle, in the past I worked for other companies, and they usually just ran 0 gauge wire off the starting battery directly to the inverter for the equipment in the back, these batteries would usually last 3 years. I always thought it was ghetto, and wanted to do things the "right way". However, a solar panel on a work truck is not going to happen. This is a commercial service vehicle. I'd really rather not replace the battery once a year, as that's a ridiculous expense. Perhaps going with a DC DC 20 Amp charger was a bad idea, maybe should have stuck to a solenoid or Automatic charge relay, that can bulk at 60 AMPS.

Maybe I overthought this whole thing and should have just ran everything off a starter battery. I assumed my sporadic, lite loads would be no problem for this Ctek device. We're literally talking driving for one hour + to every 10 minutes of use, seems like nothing, but I guess it's more significant than I thought.

I could wire in a permanent "Shore charger" and plug the vehicle in every weekend, I just felt like this was a bit unnecessary and overkill for my situation. Considering my experience though, perhaps I had the wrong idea.

The company that manufacturers the device, CTEK, does make an accessory called a smartpass, that does allow bulking at 60 amps, I thought it was overkill though, as they do suggest that the CTEK is enough for up to 100 AH battery. That's another idea I guess, I could downgrade to a lower amp hour battery, so that the 20 amp charger can fully charge it more often. I doubt I actually need 100 AH, was just trying to be conservative. Consider the main load is a small Fan and a few LED lights, we're talking about like 30 watts or less of power, for extended (2 hours max?) periods of time, with the occasional "burst" (key machine) of 700 watts for a couple of minutes.

My goal was to do it right the first time, and get a 5+ year service life out of a battery, for modest to lite loads. I thought I was on the right track with a DC DC charger, as it's supposed to better charge batteries, but it's been an expensive let down thus far.I did not want to use flooded cells as this battery is located inside the vehicle, I was concerned with venting and off gassing.

 

[highdesertranger]

when you discharge a lead acid battery it needs to be brought back to 100% ASAP.

a highly discharged battery can take 5-8 hours to fully charge no matter what the charge source is. or how many amps you try to shove into it.

this is the number one reason solar works so well.

why is solar out of the question on a work truck?

highdesertranger

 

[elderblaze]

when you discharge a lead acid battery it needs to be brought back to 100% ASAP.

a highly discharged battery can take 5-8 hours to fully charge no matter what the charge source is. or how many amps you try to shove into it.

this is the number one reason solar works so well.

why is solar out of the question on a work  truck?

highdesertranger

How many electrician, plumber or locksmith vans you see driving around with solar panels? nuff said, im not boondocking for weeks folks, Im runing a few machines here and there for very short periods of time. it sounds like if anything, I might have bought too much capacity, and should have aimed for a 50 amp hour battery. Im not beating anyone up here, and appreciate all comments. I had not considered that I'd "Chronically" undercharged the battery and caused capacity loss, if that is in fact whats happening I need to address it, preferably as inexpensively as possible, but the right way. My truck's a mid roof, I love being able to stand up inside, but it's already a headache in parking garage's, where I sometimes must work on cars that have lost keys (think airport, or downtown), adding any more height to the top of my vehicle is a no-no. I don't really know why my battery would ever become "highly discharged", but I suppose this could happen, if one where to leave the inverter on for a day or two, unnoticed, combined with less then normal driving, thus putting you in a situation where you should shore charge.

 

[B and C]

You have capacity loss creep from under charging. There are three charging phases, bulk, absorption and float. Bulk is where the charger is trying to get the battery to 14.+ volts and when it does it goes into absorption phase, Absorption is where it hold the 14.+ volts until the charge rate comes down to about .5% capacity (0.5C). This stage takes a long time to accomplish, hours actually. Float holds your battery at about 13.2 volts to maintain charge.

This is why solar works so well, for that long absorption phase. You don't want to be a trendsetter and be green by using solar? It might help in advertising! In your use case, your agm could last 10 years by the shallow cycling.

 

[bullfrog]

You are probably demanding more from the battery than it can supply on a regular basis without fully recharging it. If you can use your battery without going below 80% and fully recharge it every night it will last many years. It would be cheaper most likely to run a generator. Most commercial users do, although I have seen a contractors truck with ladder racks on the side and solar on the top. Tool trucks have about the same needs as your set up and they all run generators most nowadays are propane I believe.

 

[Weight]

You need electricity. You don't have the proper battery capacity. You don't want solar. Get a generator.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

First - I am not sure from your system description that you understand you can only use 50% of a lead acid batteries capacity without early failure.  So, if you draw more than 50AH out of your 100AH battery it will fail prematurely.

Second - a smaller capacity battery will NOT improve your situation.  You must replace the energy you take out of your battery as soon as possible - daily is best.  So you will still have to replace what you take out of a 50AH battery just like a 100AH battery.  Getting from 80% to 100% charge usually takes between 2 and 3 hours for lead acid batteries at low amps, which is why solar works so well.

Third - there is a correct way to trouble shoot a problem: start at one end and keep working your way down the line until you find your problem.  So, start with having your battery tested, preferably in two different shops.  This will tell you if the battery is bad and needs replacing or if the problem is elsewhere.  If the battery is bad you still need to determine why it went bad so soon - so you are going to have to measure to understand what the CETEK is delivering and what the inverter (under load and idle) and other things are drawing.

Fourth - I would suggest getting a good battery meter, one that counts amps in and out.  I have a Trimetric but there are a number of them available.  This will show you how much you are using (not guessing) and how much charge you are getting (again, not relying on led lights or guessing).  I learned an awful lot about my system by watching amps.

 

[B and C]

They make the thin, bendable panels. You can always mount them on the side or get a small generator as has been mentioned.

 

[mjbeam64]

I work from my van about 13 hours a day. I run 2 laptops, fans and LED lights. For several years before I installed solar, I ran from three 100 amp hour batteries. Every night when I got home I plugged in in to recharge the batteries overnight. I used 800-1200 watt hours during the 13 hour period. This is another option you could consider. I didn't find plugging in the van every night to be a big burden, but I can park in my driveway and have external outlets on my house so I have an extension code there where I can simply plug it into an outlet that I installed on the bumper of the van.

 

[tx2sturgis]

I'd fix this by swapping in a couple of brand new expensive flooded batteries like big ugly Trojans, then add a big, heavy, loud, jobsite generator on a hitch rack on the back bumper. Add a gnarly industrial battery charger. Install a bulky, ugly, real metal, heavy industrial inverter that costs a crapload of money because it is designed for the pros.

This IS a commercial van, used in commercial service, and is a bill-paying business, so...treat it as such. Stop messing around with light duty consumer products.

The ctek, and the renogy 'dry' batteries, and even the inverter to some extent, probably are all designed and warranted for light-duty consumer use...a lot of this stuff will have a warranty that excludes or severely limits the warranty when used in commercial service....now why would that be?

I'm not beating you up either, but you are putting heavy use on some light duty components.

Industrial/commercial quality equipment often works very well in light-duty consumer use. But the reverse is rarely the case.

As a locksmith, you know this: Right tool for the job, everytime.

Good luck sorting it out.

 

[elderblaze]

You guys are way way out of line thinking I need a freaking generator. Perhaps this was not the best place to seek advice after all. It's like no one is listening to my use case at all. Here's where im at

1. I've used multiple work vans in the past with rinky-dink horrible cheap 2k watt harbor freight garbage inverter with a wal-mart battery wired directly to the starter. This easily met ALL power needs with no problem, and would usually last for 2-3 years before the starter battery died. My demands are no more then this horrible setup worked for.

2. I went out of my way buying EXPENSIVE batteries, inverters, and DC DC chargers, with very high quality cables and wires, great care was taken in how everything was wired.

3. The cheap terrible setup was more reliable. WTF.

4. Typical Locksmith use case, drive 30 minutes to 1 hour to a clients location, pull locks, bring back to truck, power on inverter with 1 small fan, probably no lights (daytime work), just a small fan, sit and rekey locks for 1-2 hours, at the end of this cycle, we turn on a Key Duplicator that pulls aproximately 7 AMPS, for usually no more then 5 minutes, but sometimes as much as 15 minutes. Maybe we charge a drill battery, or laptop briefly, maybe we turn on a couple of 3 watt LED lamps for a few minutes here and there.

4a. This is like a "Worse case scenario" situation above, there will be many calls where the inverter is not flipped on at all, and it's just road time. Car lockouts, residential lockouts, trips to the supply house, etc. The above case is literally probably my worst case scenario, if I've got to cut 100 keys or something I have enough sense to turn on the ignition. But this is super rare.

Inverter gets shut off and we drive to next job, if it's particularly hot during the day, we may IDLE at the jobsite for awhile for AC. Sometimes we'll have to travel to another city and could easily be on the road for 4-6 hours.

Is this not super lite use? A freaking generator? Really?

In no way does this amount to any sort of "Heavy Use", Im not running a fridge, im not running an air conditioner. Im literally runing 3 watt leds, a 10 watt fan, and a 7 amp small motor, very intermittently.

Thanks for all the feedback anyways, I think I will try buying a good quality smart 110v charger and leaving it on for 36 hours or so and see if this changes my results, if it works out like its supposed to I will perhaps shore charge on the weekends. Even though this CTEK should be able to fully charge a 100 AH battery in 5 hours, which I feel is way overkill for my super lite loads and 80% road time 20% inverter use.

 

[B and C]

It sounds like for your use case you should go back to the way it was done. We were just trying to help with your current setup.

 

[Trebor English]

in the past I worked for other companies, and they usually just ran 0 gauge wire off the starting battery directly to the inverter for the equipment in the back, these batteries would usually last 3 years.

I have seen this done to supply high power loads like air compressors, heat guns and grinders. The engine was left running while the high power loads were in use. The usual starter battery regimen, high current short time duration load, immediate recharging, never a substantial state of discharge, works well with regular starter batteries.

You noted that your inverter still works your big key grinder with the engine running. That will reduce the amount of discharge of the AGM battery reducing the amount of charge that must be replaced. The replacement charging will still take a long time as lead acid batteries take a charge slowly, particularly when they get close to full.

If you mount the inverter very close to the starter battery the amount of large wire is reduced. To run 2000 watts at 120 volts all the way to the back from a front mounted inverter will work fine with AWG #10. Mounting the inverter in the back will require large wire all the way.

 

[mjbeam64]

Install a battery monitor so you will know what's coming out of and into your battery instead of guessing.

 

[highdesertranger]

we're out of line?

you came here with a battery issue and we have offered advice on how to fix it and you just want to argue and tell us we don't know what we are talking about.

if the previous system worked so well why did you spend all that money trying to change it?

I tell you what, how about telling us what it is that you want to hear so we can all get on the same page.

highdesertranger

 

[Weight]

Yes. But I will never tell you only what you want to hear if it is wrong. You shot down every idea anyone offered. You are not fully charging your battery. Could be your vehicle system or your battery could be bad. That is the most likely answer. A brand new battery off the shelf can be bad.

 

[tx2sturgis]

You guys are way way out of line thinking I need a freaking generator. 

{snip}

4. Typical Locksmith use case, drive 30 minutes to 1 hour to a clients location,

[snip]

we turn on a Key Duplicator that pulls aproximately 7 AMPS, for usually no more then 5 minutes, but sometimes as much as 15 minutes. Maybe we charge a drill battery, or laptop briefly, maybe we turn on a couple of  3 watt LED lamps for a few minutes here and there.

If this key duplicator is pulling 7 amps AC, then that's about 70-100 amps DC to the inverter from your little wimpy AGM battery, that is not getting replaced in the 30 minutes to 1 hour of drive time thru the ctek charger. 

Add in the several amps for drill battery and laptop charging, repeat several times daily, and voila...slow battery death.

Please confirm or not, whether your duplicator is pulling 7 amps AC, or if that is 7 amps DC input to the inverter.

At any rate, my recommendation for the genset is because sometimes you need it to power your equipment AND charge your batteries, other times, you would only need to run the equipment thru the inverter and batteries. But you would have that generator when and if you needed it.
 
Keep in mind that we can not, by default, be 'out of line' when making suggestions, that you requested. (your word: 'Thoughts!) All our suggestions are appropriate, since we are not TELLING you what to do.

However you could be 'out of line' for asking for help with a locksmith business on a website that is clearly marked: CHEAP RV LIVING.

There is a huge amount of collective experience here, ignore and insult it at your own loss.