Recirculating Shower

[Scott7022]

Has anybody heard or done a recirculating shower? Small space showering is hard. I prefer outdoor showers and I am really not that shy. I do like to be respectful and polite however. But I will not have the ability with my next project to go south and north as the weather dictates. The idea of going out in the cold to have a hot shower is not really in the want to do ticky box anymore. But small unit, its limited water capacity and trying to keep a few comforts I like has me thinking. 

People bathe all the time, lie in 20 liters of hot water, shave, wash there hair stand up and pronounce themselves clean. But for a shower the water that hits our head has to be new water. Why?

I am thinking along the lines of an accumulation pan with X variable of hot water a filtering unit, pump and shower unit. You add X liters of water heated on the stove to a comfortable temp. (or do the boil and mix thing) Add to a deep dish shower base get in hit the pump and instant hot water shower. Some form of filter removes particulate (belly button fuzz) and some body oils and you shower till done or the water gets cold. Then a valve flip diverts the water from the shower to an outside grey tank.

This can't be a new idea, I ain't that smart so what is the error or issue I am not seeing? 
Thanks in advance for you thoughts.

 

[jonsun]

I can get by with about 1/2-3/4 gallon of water in my solar shower. IJS might be simpler to get your usage down.

 

[RVTravel]

I like to see the methods of those who wash in a liter of water.

 

[jonsun]

you turn the spout on and get a sufficient soak, turn the spout off and lather. repeat.

 

[Scott7022]

Thanks guys , I have done that game for a little too long. Works well in the warm mid west. But at 10 degrees well... I need another cup of coffee to keep things dignified. I want a Self contained shower. I don't want to haul huge water or use huge water. I can shower here in about a gallon. SO recirculation that water for ten minutes or so and having it go through a filter...I won't swallow while brushing. Anyone have any OMG man you are insane this won't work because...answers? One has to stay clean for the Lions, and Tigers, and Bears oh my!

 

[CautionToTheWind]

Berkey would solve the recycling issue.

 

[djkeev]

The dirtiest part about cleaning yourself is your "bum".

The "dirt" there can harbor bacteria that can make one quite ill.

This is a reason pools have chlorine, washing machines drain into septics, as do showers.

If you filter AND chlorinate, you might be on to something.

Dave

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Has anybody heard or done a recirculating shower?  . . .

People bathe all the time, lie in 20 liters of hot water, shave, wash there hair stand up and pronounce themselves clean. But for a shower the water that hits our head has to be new water. Why?

A standard bathtub filled 15 cm deep (6 inches) holds about 72 liters of water (20 gallons).  20 liters in a bathtub is ~ 4 cm deep (<2 inches).  I doubt many people use that little water to bathe; most baths are about 100 liters (30 gallons, up to the overflow drain).

A navy shower can be as little as 11 liters (3 gallons).  Not satisfying but you can get clean.  I have friends that shower using the 5 gallons in their water heater in the camper.  Gives them a decent shower.  In cooler temps they do have condensation problems if the water is hot, satisfaction problems if the water is cool (water the second time through a re-circulator will be cool unless you reheat it or use a large volume of water).

A problem with a recirculating shower is soap scum; hard to filter out.  You need a very big filter to get any throughput.  A low volume of water will have more concentrated contaminants and get cold very fast.

If you are stuck in an area that gets below freezing, that adds additional problems with water management.

 -- Spiff

 

[Scott7022]

Thanks Spiff et all. This was kind of along the same lines as I was thinking. How big of a filter, pressure required to push it quickly. I've done the Navy shower but three gallons a day is like 7 days without refreshing source water. I played with this a little bit here and the water just flowing through a 4gpm flow jet stayed warm for about five minutes. Started hot but tolerable hot. I guess nobody has done this before. HMM? Condensation is not an unsurpassable issue most just don't design it well. Intake and exhaust the shower not the camper. Many put a fan in the shower but pull air from the camper or just have it open a hope it goes out. Does little more than yank the lighter, less vapor, water out and in four minutes the camper has been ventilated four times and unless you have a window open it can't keep up. Vacuum!

Recirculating bacteria yeah, could be a harder issue to overcome. Not that it would be much but PPM isn't much. I was leaning toward a large FLuval fish filter they will do GPM in flow...But can't find one to test here!

 

[Scott7022]

Wow, so I have been doing some research and I figured I'd post my finding in case others were thinking about doing the same thing. First off this is hardly a new idea. Several companies in Europe and the USA are or have tried kickstarter programs to make these. One company in Europe makes them and they are cool but stupid expensive. So after getting some responses from manufactures I have some how and why's. Basically if you design a shower the water has to be drinking level safe. This certification level changes dependent on the state. California has the most restrictions and it makes it too expensive to bring a product to market. Hey, most of us have showered in a place you can't drink the water. Past that my tub model still holds true. Just because you use 30 gallons of water in a tub the soap, shavings, and "parts" washing gets diluted but is still not drinkable. Tubs are legal, showers are not. Sigh! Ok moving forward Large Koi pond filters are the cheap and easy answer to the filtration issue. Most have small, built in, UV sterilizing lights . They will handle the pressure and volume and require an external pump. Most of the tropical tank fish filters have an internal pump and it is less than adequate. I will be adding an additional inline UV lamp, does two jobs. Kills bacteria missed by the first small light because of increased rate of flow. Adds a little thermal energy to the water and slows the cooling process. Boil half a gallon of water and mix in another 3/4 gallons of temperate water to a base with a six inch rise. Turn on the pump, and wait till he oxygenitics shower head is the only thing adding air to the system and enjoy. Should be clean enough for the cats I roll with. One additional benefit of the Koi pond filter is it has a bypass for draining the swamp. Flip a switch and the water gets diverted to an outside grey container under pressure sucking the system dry.

SO with all this information, any concerns questions or ideas?

 

[highdesertranger]

I have never looked into Koi filters so I have no idea about them. but when looking into drinking water filters the companies say that the UV filters slow the flow of the water system down because the water needs to be exposed to the UV light for a period of time to kill the nasty's. in other words the water just can't flow at normal rates past the light. also to be effective the water must be clear, ie no dissolved solids. highdesertranger

 

[Weight]

I read a study that proved peeing in the shower is helpful for various urinary conditions. Recirculate that.

 

[sometimesido]

I don't know about recirculating, but for heating, Cycle Cruza on youtube uses this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KLKGJ1I/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I3D4YNHFJVI5AA&colid=2IADWSXOCY293

I see he changed his van page to https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKrdCz7sPkHv9huZzHoxx4w

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

 . . .  Basically if you design a shower the water has to be drinking level safe  . . .  Hey, most of us have showered in a place you can't drink the water. Past that my tub model still holds true.
 
I have used non-potable water for my sun shower when potable water is not available.  You just have to be careful on the water you choose and accept the risks: something nasty getting into your eyes, nose or mouth.
I agree with you on 'bath water is icky'.

Ok moving forward Large Koi pond filters are the cheap and easy answer to the filtration issue. Most have small, built in, UV sterilizing lights . They will handle the pressure and volume and require an external pump.  . . .  I will be adding an additional inline UV lamp, does two jobs. Kills bacteria missed by the first small light because of increased rate of flow. Adds a little thermal energy to the water and slows the cooling process.

There is a time of exposure for UV light disinfecting; I think it is based on strength of the light and the volume and clarity of the water.  For 'drinking water quality' you are going to have to do the engineering.  If you start with clean water all you are adding is your own germs.
You can get a fist order approximation of how much heat your are going to get from the UV light(s) by how many watts they consume (I don't think the change in water temp will be measurable).

Boil half a gallon of water and mix in another 3/4 gallons of temperate water to a base with a six inch rise. Turn on the pump, and wait till he oxygenitics shower head is the only thing adding air to the system and enjoy.

With only 5 quarts of water in your system you are going to need a very aggressive water collection system to keep the pump from starving (adding air to your system and possibly damaging the pump).

With the recent severe water restrictions in California, I would think someone would have come up with a cost effective system and bragged about it on You-tube.

Just curious: how much space and energy are you budgeting for this system?

 -- Spiff

 

[tx2sturgis]

SO with all this information, any concerns questions or ideas?

Murky tub water does not normally end up in your lungs...

But a shower 'atomizes' or 'aerosolilizes' the water, especially if its warm, and any remaining bacteria, various microbes, and etc that were on your skin and recirculated, will now be in your lungs. Not an experiment I'd want to try.

Try it on on a lab animal for 3 weeks, lets see if it gets sick. Or not.

Ever hear of pneumonia or legionnaires disease? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionnaires'_disease

I don't think saving a few gallons of water is worth the risk. Humans die in third world countries all the time due to contaminated water.

You can be very efficient with water by taking what we called a 'navy shower' or a spit bath. Then use that water for washing something way on down the food chain, instead of breathing it.

But, you're a brave guy...let us know how it turns out.

 

[tx2sturgis]

I read a study that proved peeing in the shower is helpful for various urinary conditions. Recirculate that.

NASA does...

 

[jonsun]

Dogs lick their butts all day so it probably wont be much different...disease wise

speaking of butts, you can have my old recirculating toilet and use the parts out of it.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Dogs lick their butts all day so it probably wont be much different...disease wise

lol....well not ALL day....sometimes they stay busy retrieving cat poop from the litter box...

 

[slgerber]

Hi Scott,

I like this concept and I've had this same idea floating around in my head for a while too, although I haven't tried constructing anything yet but I do have a few ideas to contribute to the brainstorming.

How about building an air tight well insulated box using foam board insulation that you sit inside of?  This would help conserve the heat in the water and would keep the air inside the box warmer and more comfortable around your body.  In the winter it can be uncomfortable to have cold air sneaking around a shower curtain even if the water is hot. Perhaps your head should stick out of a hole in the top of the box?

How about setting it up so you can have different wash cycles?  For example, maybe have a 2 or 3 gallon insulated reservoir of hot water with valves inside the box so you can drain the first really dirty soapy water out and then let in clean rinse water for a secondary rinse/relax cycle. Maybe it could even be set up so that you could do a brief 5-10 second final rinse cycle that doesn't recirculate.

I don't think I'd bother trying to sterilize the water as it recirculates, just filter, then drain the dirty water and run another cycle or two.

I wonder what the minimum volume of water would be  for this to work? 1 gallon?  Half a gallon? It would obviously depend on how big your sump is (where the pump is located) and the diameter of your piping/tubing running to your spray head(s).

As a side note, with regard to heating the water, I've experimented some with bathing using the solar heated water in the 150 feet of garden hose that lies in my back yard.  It holds 795 cubic inches or 3.4 gallons of water and on a really hot sunny summer day I've measured the temperature of the water coming out of the hose at around 130F! That's actually too hot to even use straight for bathing, though I have used it for dish washing.  You would have to cool it down some before using it in a recirculating shower like we're discussing. I've also experimented with storing that hose water in an insulated ice chest in mid afternoon.  If it goes in at close to 130F it will still be a little to hot to pour over your head with a cup even at 9:00 p.m. and will still need a little tempering.    

One final idea. How about having a separate water storage tank for nonpotable bathing water?  You could refill the bathing water tank anywhere you happen to find reasonably clean lake, river or rain water and thereby conserve your pure potable water just for drinking.

Anyway, those are my ideas for now.  Have you identified an inexpensive 12 volt pump that might work well for this project?

- Steve

 

[Scott7022]

Thanks for the input! All of it, truly! The problem with design is being confident in the process and not having enough "Subjective" reality to keep your ideas safe. So I do appreciate all the input.

So far I have hooked up a pump the FLowJet 3521-500 and Connected it to a Koi Filter. The Built in 9watt UV bulb probably does very little. But in playing around with soaps, shaving cream, almond oil I have not noticed a taste. Best science I can do here in the village. I want to put a 35 watt UV inline filter, after the filter, (about 200 bucks)  it has half inch fittings but I can't find any info on flow rates. My thinking is if it is rated for 50psi and has 1/2 inch fittings...But that is talking thru my hat.

Thanks for the aerosol angle I had never thought of that!!! As I said in my other post two companies have working models. Only one has a model for Europe. But it is very expensive and targeting the rich going green and bragging about it crowd. We are taking like 8 grand. But it has an iPad built in and water proofed!! LOL! It uses 5 gallons of water for a twenty minute shower. The other company basically died at the certification level as each state regulates requirements. Think of it like CARB for cars.

I did think of the dual bypass unit shower with non potable, and then engage parallel system of potable to rinse while the system pumps to external grey. Complicated and with the Aerosol addition I think cleaning the water is a better idea.  My budget for the build is around 2 grand. I will use solar and a campfire donkey boiler and perhaps an external propane unit for warmer, remote and kind environments. BC has loads of water sources and I have a solar powered water purification system. Slick suitcase unit. But in freezing conditions, or just miserable conditions, or post/prior intimate conditions being able to open a shower box remove the composting toilet and have a ten minute shower is, while a luxury, perfect. Carrying 30 gallons of water to do so...not so much.

I had a SAS exchange instructor on a course I took in the Canadian military on bushcraft/survival. His attitude was very different than other courses. One, despite all of us being well trained he politely called us retards, and second he had a saying; "Any a$$hole can be uncomfortable in the bush. Why be an a$$hole." The entire program was to add little luxuries to keep up morale. "Add a little dream whip, add a little happiness."

Yes the well insulated shower box is the same way I am going. Condensation being the main issue but the cold air sneak around is and can be shocking.

Weight. As to your question on pee. Urine while not "sterile," it has good and some bad bacterium, in a healthy non UTI (unrineary tract infection) suffering person it can be used. I have seen it used, and used it,  in Africa numerous times for wound irrigation, if you have no other "proved safe" source of water. Yes, ideally an IV bag would be the preferred method. Swab the tip with alcohol prep and spray to clean the wound of debris prior to applying a topical antiseptic and dressing. But if no other source is available apply the same methodology. As to drinking... It can be done but as it is high in saline it forces your kidneys to process the salt again and will lead to death, longer than three days but not much. You can use the sun to distill it into cleaner water if you don't have any other source of water. For use in a shower...A 12 volt fan might work and have a small chance of a shock but even "cut the puck in half" flow rates would hardly lend themselves to a long shower. But alas, at 51 "Cutting the puck in half is an Olympic memory. :blush: