Ram ProMasters with 2 major fleets

[Minivanmotoman]

Out on a motorcycle ride yesterday,  saw something very interesting for the first time. Two MAJOR fleets now have Ram Promasters. Any guesses as to which two?

Would you have guessed USPS and UPS?
United States postal service and United Parcel Service. I was very surprised to see their liveries on this model. This may be old news to some, I don't always get out much. Lol.

However, what's interesting is that there are those who negatively regard their reliability; Consumer Reports, Scotty Killer, JD, etc...
See some Edmunds reviews for example
https://www.edmunds.com/ram/promaster-cargo-van/2017/consumer-reviews/


And yet here are two major fleets, either determining their suitability, or calculating worthwhile to purchase.
Their cost, huge cargo space, front wheel drive ease to drive, fuel economy is making them very popular. Great design and package, but are they reliable and will they be proven reliable is the big question.

Does anyone (JD) know why two major fleets have decided to go with them?
Does this support or reinforce reliability in and of itself?
 Or do they just buy on cheapest price, hope for the best? 
That maybe the fuel efficiency gains outweigh the cost of repairs? 
Most large organizations don't always make the best bureaucratic choices.

 

[JD GUMBEE]

Go buy one.

 

[Minivanmotoman]

Was hoping for more insight JD.
Don't know if you deal with those two fleets or not and their decision process.

My post was objective / neutral and had both pro and cons. Was looking for more insight. Have no plans in buying one but lot of others will so the thread was intended to get data and info for them, not opinions that others gave as in your previous thread on shying away from the ProMaster.
Just wondering if any new or further information specifically to these 2 fleets has come out.
Thx for your input if you have any.

 

[Doubleone]

I just saw an AMR ambulance Promaster this past Saturday. Sounded weak-sauce as it drove by...hoping they'll never have to come for me... we might not get to the hospital.

 

[wnybiker]

Amazon bought 22,000 Promasters for their delivery fleet, too.

There could be a number of reasons. It's cheaper than a Transit or Sprinter. It has a short (136" WB) high top edition, which should work well for package delivery in congested areas. It's easy to drive and very maneuverable. Maintenance on the Pentastar V6 is inexpensive, and parts are widely available.

Not trying to get into a "which van is better" argument, just giving reasons why those fleets would purchase a Promaster.

 

[JD GUMBEE]

GSA also purchased Dodge Omnis, Plymouth Reliants, early Escorts and more recently, some seriously flawed hybrids from Ford and GM. None of them were wise choices.
In large purchases, factory reps often assume the position in extended coverage and incentives that can make the worst vehicles look like the best financial decisions to a bean counter.
(Not to mention feeling the need to spread the purchases out by uncle sam.)


Go buy one and enjoy all those great virtues you pointed out. buona fortuna

 

[Headache]

FFS the guy just wanted more info and repeated what others have said about them for comparison/devils advocate.

Minivan from what I understood it was the ones equipped with the 8 speed transmissions that were the problem children. I have no personal experience myself but I've heard both sides of the fence regarding how good or bad they are. The couple that have one in camp love theirs and it's not the 8 speed. I'd be thoroughly confused if I was considering one.

Regarding why fleets bought them I can state that having been a fleet driver not all decisions are good ones when it comes to pulling the trigger on new equipment. Usually price and warranty are the largest chunk of the decision making and they work out the details later no matter what the shops say in that regard.

 

[maki2]

Those companies have a bidding system in place for equipment acquisition. Large companies are not a typical car buyer, they don't shop for equipment the way the general population does. The world is full of people who stand there scratching their head about why people don't do things the way they think they ought to be doing it. But rarely stop to consider that what works for them might not be the best way to approach it under a different set of parameters. Most likely they don't consider it because they are clueless that there actually are other parameters and they don't know enough to try to figure out what those parameters might be.

 

[Minivanmotoman]

IMHO, these will be the Chevy van of the future and why I was looking at more info. Seeing two major fleets carry them has to say something for them. The question is what?
While I currently have no plans to buy one, lots of others do and are buying them.

As JD has mentioned, fleet purchase is no guarantee of a reliable vehicle. Initial capitol cost appears to be more of a factor than long term reliability.

While they may have had reliability issues in the past, manufacturers constantly assess and correct on an ongoing basis. Since Ram had been making these vans for 5+ years now, they could be improved which is what I was pondering, if so, with these large fleet purchases. It can be argued that today's cars are built to be reliable within a warranty period and yet today's engines are more durable than ever due to precision machining. But the same can't be said about the electronics and their costly repair.

The USPS 12000 unit purchases were to replace aging minivans and are currently conducting trials to replace their aging fleet. The units they are getting have the 6 speed transmission.

Here's some info regarding the USPS purchase;

https://link.usps.com/2015/09/30/ready-to-ride/

https://www.automotive-fleet.com/136711/usps-adds-another-2-000-ram-promaster-vans


https://www.autonews.com/article/20...ram-promaster-vans-for-large-package-delivery

http://www.postal-reporter.com/blog...ed-capacity-delivery-vehicles-for-94-million/


FYI
https://repairpal.com/reliability/ram/promaster+2500

 

[Minivanmotoman]

Amazon bought 22,000 Promasters for their delivery fleet, too.

There could be a number of reasons.  It's cheaper than a Transit or Sprinter.  It has a short (136" WB) high top edition, which should work well for package delivery in congested areas. It's easy to drive and very maneuverable. Maintenance on the Pentastar V6 is inexpensive, and parts are widely available.

Not trying to get into a "which van is better" argument, just giving reasons why those fleets would purchase a Promaster.

Amazon bought the Sprinter, which the Promasters are based upon. It was initially developed by Mercedes when they owned Chrysler but had to modify it when bought by Fiat.

http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-buys-mercedes-benz-vans-for-delivery-program-2018-9

 

[grummy]

Amazon bought the Sprinter, which the Promasters are based upon. It was initially developed by Mercedes when they owned Chrysler but had to modify it when bought by Fiat.

http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-buys-mercedes-benz-vans-for-delivery-program-2018-9

Completely Inaccurate... EDIT: well not completely... sorry .... I almost thought you meant the Promaster was based on the Sprinter...
Maybe you did ??

Sprinter was a re-badged BENZ vehicle that had, and has, absolutely ZERO relationship to the Promaster. The Promaster is very simply the Fiat Ducato with all DOT required alterations included.

Personally, I wouldn't give you a nickel for any of the Benz based vans as they showed all of the same annoying traits as most other "German" vehicles except for one thing. Most German vehicles are undeniably good at resisting rust. In this regard, Sprinter Vans fail miserably (though perhaps not any worse than my old standby favorites made by GM.

Regards the Promasters, I think they could be a winning combination for conversion use. The front wheel drive is a rather  stupid way to PULL lots of weight in a commercial environment unless it's 100% dry out, but again, as a conversion... I guess I could live with it (my wife drives a 2016 Town and Country... and that things is AWFUL in snow).

If they start selling an AWD/4WD, I think they will sell more of them. Regards "lightweight components", again, not that big of an issue if not commercially used (abused). Weak components will get improved, and if, lets say, 100,000 end up in fleet use, part PRICES will remain lower than others because manufacturing volume will keep it that way until the next great thing comes along (which hopefully will be a CHEVY van, with the same dependable CHEVY drive lines that hopefully do NOT look like an imported, "kinked up" "universal" foreign body design).

 

[Minivanmotoman]

^^^ seems I recall in Lutz's book Car Guys that he mentioned the development of the Promaster initially when Mercedes owned them. After Mercedes sold Chrysler, it didn't include the Sprinter mechanical aspects and Chrysler decided to throw what they had from the parts bin to continue it's development. Think it was developed with common parts, structure and similar components for a new, combined model, but not sure of that and if so, how much, probably a stretch on my part.


IF I remember it correctly, which I wouldn't bet on of course. Memory is one of the first things to go... So far. Lol.
And of course I no longer have the book for reference, donated to a public library somewhere along my travels.

 

[crofter]

Reason to buy a Promaster:
Maneuverable, comfortable to drive, taller and more square than the other vans before adding high top.
Front wheel drive.
Fleet selloffs make it cheap to buy used (how I got mine).
Downside: 
Low axle in the back will get you stuck if there is a foot of snow (even with chains). No 4x4 option available.
You need a rear camera to get a rear view.
~ crofter

 

[B and C]

Personally, I would put the front wheel drive as a downside but that is just me.

 

[maki2]

There are tax advantages for companies that make it a better option to more frequently replace vehicles rather than keeping them long term. That means long term reliability over the years is not on the list of features they put on their list of priorities. Besides that they are typically buying models that are new and don't necessarily have a history that is long enough to prove such a thing.

 

[highdesertranger]

X2 on the front wheel drive(FWD). in my book that's a negative. so is anything Fiat touches. IMO(IN MY OPINION) Fiats are cheap throw away vehicles as are all FWD. please don't get all upset I said MY OPINION twice. highdesertranger

 

[JD GUMBEE]

The "constant update by manufacturer" idea applies mainly to plug-in electrical components, not usually major drive line.
There are a lot fewer improvements back-engineered mid-production line, than people think. (Usually, only if the unit is killing people and they are preventing lawsuits.)
As long as the failures mainly hit outside of the warranty, the bean counters do a computation...and 99 out of 100 times, keep the assembly lines installing the same old failure-prone stuff. They all do it.

On the Sprinter/Benz,
There is another way in which the Mercedes vans differed from the Fiat's. (Renault? Fiat? Ram?)
They actually did what they were supposed to and the majority of them lasted.
The built-in gremlins were pretty well-known right away and there were not that many. Most of them went well past the 150,000, even the 200,000 mark without being touched in a major way. For many, who used them to cover great highway distance, they made financial sense.
Early Mercedes vans did not have multiple ECM issues, emissions failures, transmission failures, multiple QC issues in the dash, gasket failures, chronic electrical gremlins (just like the Fiats of 70's) and on and on to the rest of the multiple-source-reported pre-50K issues of the current Promaster. To compare the two is truly laughable. Not even in the same league.
Sprinters were lighter built and had me questioning at first, but they actually worked correctly and even with their Benz sedan based overworked diesel, they carried on admirably. The first 50K data on the Sprinters looked NOTHING like the Promaster.

There are some pro-European design people out there who accuse American auto makers of "killing a mosquito with a sledge hammer." Lots of US people want weight and girth in their designs...along with the ability to overload the snot out of their trucks and carry on, trouble free. True enough.

"Use only the minimum needed for the job. Stop burning resources up with your big V-8's..." tends to be the attitude from these types. (Very prevalent in millennials.) Only, they fail to take longevity into account. Scrap a vehicle @ 130,000 miles instead of 275,000 miles (on average) and you just wasted many more barrels of oil than you think. (Not to mention a lot of money from your wallet.) A 16MPG "sledgehammer" that gets a fresh engine or trans @ 240,000, then is kept running for another 100,000 by a tinkerer is much better for the planet than crushing/building two and a half "fairy-wing-thin efficient designs." Even available estimates on the barrels of oil to build a car/van do not take into account all the trucks carrying the parts and raw materials through the various supplier lines and then on to assembly.

Another thing to keep in mind...there are Ford (Nissan also) ultra lite, high-MPG, (even FWD) offerings that directly compete with the Fiat/Renault/Ram...but you don't see "WARNING, WILL ROBINSON...DANGER DANGER!!!" posts about those. (At least not from me.) Same with countless other platforms out there.

ProMasters are in a wholly different class of cheesy design, poor assembly with "as thin/cheap as we can possibly get away with" Fiat philosophy. Toyota's and Nissans doors are thin, too. But they are not, on average, loaded with defects right off the assembly line.

From what I have seen, most nomads who post here are looking for a 10K-ish or less van.
Fiat Promaster is the last one they want, only one step above the VW rear engine stuff in truthful long term practicality.

If you are an MG or VW rear engine bus enthusiast, or you have a yard full of old 128/X19 Fiats or Alpha Romeo's, the ProMaster is the van for you and fiddling with them every two thousand miles is built right into your idea of enjoying a good car...for those who want to swap oil, rotate tires and have something that starts every time...carries them reliably without all the fun tinkering and grea$y fingernail$...well, not so much.

I think that about covers it.

The OP can consider themselves kindly invited to refrain from referencing my screen name in future threads/posts.

 

[Minivanmotoman]

Thank you poster #2/6/17.


Initial thread questions:

1. Does anyone know why two major fleets have decided to go with them?
It appears price, $28k new from contract info and best choice for them due to current assessment need by USPS. Couldn't locate any info online for UPS.

2. Does this support or reinforce reliability in and of itself?
As per poster #2/6/17, NO, with no improvements in 5 yrs of production.

3. Or do they just buy on cheapest price, hope for the best?
Partially mostly yes it appears.

4. That maybe the fuel efficiency gains outweigh the cost of repairs?
Unknown how major a factor this is in the decision process, if at all.

Ongoing improvements are made as can be evidenced in Ford's spark plug correction and numerous other gasket mods for defective intake gaskets in many makes and models. Not as rare as led to be believed by some. When costly Warranty issues arise, they can and will deal with them to correct for cost savings am sure.

 

[highdesertranger]

it took Ford 10 years to fix the spark plug problem that they new about in 1999. that is not an ongoing improvement an ongoing improvement would have been fixed in 2000 or 2001. highdesertranger

 

[tx2sturgis]

With large fleets, the people who work in purchasing departments are NEVER the people who own, drive or work on the equipment.

The bean counters only look at two things: Cost is both of those things. Sometimes fuel efficiency is included in 'cost'. Sometimes they are looking at resale value, but only sometimes. 

The company or organization needs a certain number of fleet vehicles, so they accept bids from several competitors, after the vendors have 'wined and dined' the purchaser, the CEO, and the board. Now and then, some companies will get feedback from drivers and mechanics, but this is very rare. 

Lowest bidder usually wins, assuming they can supply the vehicles in a timely manner.

They might end up with quality, reliability, and durability, or they might not. Either way, it's always a tax write-off for acquisition, maintenance, depreciation, and repairs, so the end result is often, 'who cares'.

I worked for a large fleet for 26 years, and trust me on this, sometimes the vehicles are great...and sometimes they are not so great. 

And once in awhile they are awful. And, considered 'disposable'.