Questions for setting up a solar system

Van Living Forum

Help Support Van Living Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

ainley53

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
161
Reaction score
0
Location
South Fulton, Tennessee
I'm sure this has been covered in the forums but I have yet to find the answers. Devices would include: lights, fan, laptop, cell phone, Kindle and Engel 40 quart fridge/freezer. Possibly a small water pump. There will be no TV, microwave or air conditioner. I will have one 12 volt AGM house battery (Trojan T-31 AGM).
1. Do I need to add up the total max amps drawn by all the devices in case they're ever all on at the same time?
2. Will this one house battery handle all this or will I need two?
3. What size solar panel is need? 100 watt? 200 watt?
4. What size MPPT controller?
5. What size inverter?
6. Is there a way to automatically shut off power from the battery to prevent it from being discharged more than 50%?
7. Are there formulas for this stuff, and if so, where do I find them?
I'm really sorry if I'm a bother. Just looking for answers. Thanks.
 
Why not get the 12 volt car adapters for the laptop and cell phone and forget the inverter. The losses in inverting can run 110% sometimes more on cheapos.

You need to add up all the amps that the devices draw. But remember these are worse cases for peak uses. You can charge the kindle from you laptop or get a universal USB cigarette lighter gadget to charge it and/or the phone. The engel should run off one battery.

Then you can never have too much solar. Personally I would get two panels and two batteries. Then you have some leeway during cloudy days and winter months when there is not as much sunshine.

Hope that helps. There is a lot of info out there on sizing and putting together your solar. Do some research. Google is your friend. Also just read down through this forum on solar and you'll find your answers.
 
There are a few basic rules to follow:
1: Add up the power draw of all devices you want to run. I would then double that for some wiggle room.
2: You never want to draw the battery down more than 50%, so if say, your power use is 50AH, you need a minimum 100 AH battery. I would go a bit larger, again for wiggle room.
3: Current wisdom is to have a minimum of 1Watt solar output to 1AH battery capacity, some like a 2W to 1 AH level. So for your 100AH battery you would use 200W solar. Also keep in mind the panel output varies during the day, and will be reduced on cloudy/rainy days.
4: Read Sternwake's posts on charging batteries. He cautions us that solar alone is not sufficient for good battery health. Plan on charging by vehicle alternator, and maybe a genset, if you can carry one along.
This forum has a LOT of info already written on this subject.
 
ainley53 said:
I'm sure this has been covered in the forums but I have yet to find the answers.  Devices would include: lights, fan, laptop, cell phone, Kindle and Engel 40 quart fridge/freezer. Possibly a small water pump.  There will be no TV,  microwave or air conditioner.  I will have one 12 volt AGM house battery (Trojan T-31 AGM).
1. Do I need to add up the total max amps drawn by all the devices in case they're ever all on at the same time?
You can do that, but I think it is overkill.  What I did was estimate the maximum number of hours/day that I would use the device to get an amphour number for that device.  Add up all the amphours for all my devices to get a total amphours/day.  Use this number to determine your minimum battery capacity.
2. Will this one house battery handle all this or will I need two?
The above amphour total will tell you how much battery you need.  And remember, your T-31 will give you 50% of its amphours without damaging the battery.
3. What size solar panel is need?  100 watt?  200 watt?
The size of battery bank will dictate how much solar you need.  You can decide (based on research) if you want 1W per AH or 2W or more (you can never have too much solar).
4. What size MPPT controller?
Number of watts of solar will determine the minimum size of your controller.  Until you reach 400W - 600W, you will get more amps/day for your money buying a cheaper PWM controller and using the saved money to buy another solar panel.
5. What size inverter?
Again, the inverter is sized by the load it must support, plus up to 15% (yikes!) overhead on some cheap inverters.  If you can, get 12V or USB chargers for your stuff.  
6. Is there a way to automatically shut off power from the battery to prevent it from being discharged more than 50%?
I know there are devices that will shut off at a preset voltage level, which can roughly translate into battery level.  IMHO you still must monitor and understand your power usage.
7. Are there formulas for this stuff, and if so, where do I find them?
In electrical engineering handbooks  :p   Really, the only formulas you need is:
Watts = Volts x Amps
Amphours = Amps x hours

You need to read HandyBob's 'The RV Battery Charging Puzzle' until you understand it.
https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/

My energy needs are not a lot different from yours: 
https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-Energy-Budget
My energy budget is in post #3.
I am currently running 200W of solar panels into 208AH of battery (two 6V GC batteries).  I have not yet gone below 86% in the AM (although, I have not been in extended 90°+ temps yet).  I am usually back to 100% by noon (even when it is overcast, which has suprised me).

I'm really sorry if I'm a bother.  Just looking for answers.  Thanks.
It's not a bother.  A number of people on this site had to hold my hand while I was working through this, so I am just passing it on  :D

-- Spiff
 
I'm going to make this real simple based on having solar for over 7 years and having installed dozens of systems and talking to hundreds of people.

But it's going to be so simple you will probably ignore it and focus on all the confusing ones.

Go buy: 200 watts, two golf carts , 30 amp mppt controller, 400 watt inverter. That will meet all your needs. If you want your battery to last a little longer but have less overnight storage, just get a single 110 ah 12 volt battery. It's a trade-off you have to decide on based on your priorities.

As for quality, you have to decide if you want to buy:

1) The cheapest, no-name Chinese stuff and save a few dollars and throw it away when it breaks.
2) Renogy which to my mind is the sweet spot of quality versus price.
3) Highest quality brand-name components which will be better, have more features and maybe last a little longer. If you chose this one, I'd get Kyocera panels, Blue Sky controller and Trojan batteries.

You can make a very good argument for going with any one of these, just do it knowing it's a decision you've made.

Solar has gotten so cheap it really is this simple.
Bob
 
akrvbob said:
I'm going to make this real simple based on having solar for over 7 years and having installed dozens of systems and talking to hundreds of people.

But it's going to be so simple you will probably ignore it and focus on all the confusing ones.

Go buy: 200 watts, two golf carts , 30 amp mppt controller, 400 watt inverter. That will meet all your needs. If you want your battery to last a little longer but have less overnight storage, just get a single 110 ah 12 volt battery. It's a trade-off you have to decide on based on your priorities.

As for quality, you have to decide if you want to buy:

1) The cheapest, no-name Chinese stuff and save a few dollars and throw it away when it breaks.
2) Renogy which to my mind is the sweet spot of quality versus price.
3) Highest quality brand-name components which will be better, have more features and maybe last a little longer. If you chose this one, I'd get Kyocera panels, Blue Sky controller and Trojan batteries.

You can make a very good argument for going with any one of these, just do it knowing it's a decision you've made.

Solar has gotten so cheap it really is this simple.
Bob

Question for Bob, I get the 200 watt panels, mppt controller and small inverter but why do I need 2 golf carts? :huh:
 
dusty98 said:
Question for Bob, I get the 200 watt panels, mppt controller and small inverter but why do I need 2 golf carts?   :huh:

So you can race them, of course!
 
dusty98 said:
Question for Bob, I get the 200 watt panels, mppt controller and small inverter but why do I need 2 golf carts?   :huh:

Enough of the jokes guys.  ;)

Golf Cart batteries are 6 volt.  Wired correctly they make an excellent 12 volt house system.  

It took me a while to stop laughing at the jokes and type this... :p
 
akrvbob said:
Go buy: 200 watts, two golf carts ,

Bob, as you know I'm building my solar system as well, but you never told me to get two golf carts. You sure that would help? And if I bought then, where would I store them?
Please help!
[emoji23][emoji23][emoji106]
 
12 volt golf cart batteries do exist, it is just the 6v golf cart batteries are much more prevalent, and probably better, due to a higher volume of electrolyte the plates are surrounded in.

4: Read Sternwake's posts on charging batteries. He cautions us that solar alone is not sufficient for good battery health. Plan on charging by vehicle alternator, and maybe a genset, if you can carry one along.

This really was not my intent nor 100% true. Solar can indeed fully charge batteries, but there is more to it than just replacing amp hours used, if one is trying for maximum battery longevity and actually deep cycling their batteries, daily.

The deeper the cycle, the more solar ratio one should have. fully charging a battery cycled to 80% is a way different animal than charging a battery that is cycled to 50% daily. The deeper the discharge, the more the battery requires higher charging rates, and more time held at the correct absorption voltages.

This might sound obvious, as more energy is required to return a more depleted battery back to full charge, but while a battery cycled to 80% might need 105% the energy taken from it to return to 100% state of charge, the battery depleted to 50% might require 125% of the energy returned into it before the specific gravity rises as high as it can go. These percentages stated are not set in stone, and they will change as the battery ages too.

And I know it is easy to see a flashing green light on a solar controller and assume the battery is fully charged. The flashing green light or any full charge indicator light on any charging controller, Solar or plug in battery charger, DOES NOT indicate the battery is full, it only indicates that the charging source has held Absorption voltage as long as it was programmed to do so. Ideal absorption voltages and durations at which the battery is held there is different for every battery and different as the battery ages, so these one size fits all charge algorithms are more like one size fits NONE.

It might be accurate, it likely is NOT. The deeper the discharge and the more deep discharges in a row, the less likely that soothing and satisfying flashing green light is likely to be anywhere near accurate.

The Hydrometer is the battery state of charge Polygraph. The green flashing light is a freaking liar designed only to make a human observer feel good.

If your Hydrometer proves your blinking green light is not a liar on cycle number 1, try it again in a week of cycling and the odds that it agrees again are much much smaller.

A battery might do OK, and yield an acceptable lifespan as long as the green light flashes daily after a discharge, but it can also just tank in performance, voltage it can hold under loading, while discharging.

My recent flooded battery was one such example. I programmed my controller to the battery manufacturer recommendations, and each day I saw that my solar system had no issues, even in winter, of flashing that green light before 1PM. But after 3 weeks of this, I noticed voltage under load was not impressive at all for a new battery, in fact it was horrible. When I put my hydrometer into the cells I saw 1.225, instead of 1.275 or higher. At that point, i'd used a plug in automatic smart charger, and when it flashed the green light, it was 1.245 on most cells. The next day I programmed my solar controller to go to 15.5volts, and once it reached 15.5 volts, it took more 4 hours( and adequate sunlight)being held at 15.5v before Specific gravity rose above 1.270.

Ultimately I found that 1.285 was the maximum Specific gravity and that 16 volts was the only way to get it that high after it sagged after a number of deep cycles.

That night I discharged the battery regularly, and the voltage held a respectable level under loading. the next day i bumped up absorption voltage and duration, and took a hydrometer reading, again and again, over a period of 2 months before I found what the battery really required when charged only by the Solar, and what it required was well up and above any sane recommendation. 14.9v for close to 3 hours, and then Instead of dropping to a normal float voltage, I had a 15.3 volt finish voltage that the solar held all afternoon long.

Now I am not saying all batteries need this, and I am saying that batteries that do need this are not very good batteries. Unfortunately many 12v batteries Marine or pseudo deep cycle in the group 24/27 and 31 sizes can require these rather extreme voltages and durations when on a low and slow solar recharge, to perform well when the battery is deeply cycled each and every night and solar only recharged.

Now when higher amp charging sources were employed, these extreme voltages and durations were not required to return the battery to 1.275 or higher Specific gravity daily, but if the Solar was the only recharging source, then The controller had to hold the battery at 14.9v for 3 hours once it got there, and then go up a stage to 15.3 for the rest of the afternoon.
Even then it required a 16V equalization charge every 2 to 3 weeks as Specific gravity still walked down cycle after deep cycle.

Now I am not saying everybody with flooded batteries and Solar has to do this same approach. I did so because I have an inquisitive mind and like figuring these things out. Experiment, observe result, change parameters, observe result, on and on as I do seek to at least find what is Ideal.

It is just that 'Ideal' can be SO far from what is 'common' knowledge and retold online over and over. There are a million variables, and what works for one persons system and needs can be at polar opposites of another persons System's needs. Ballpark recommendations are just that, a starting point, and perhaps good enough for some systems, but these same setpoints might behave horribly on the next persons system and usage

The goal is to at least get respectable lifespans from the batteries that are being cycled. Flashing green lights is no guarantee of this, as soothing as they can be.

There are a couple things that can be stated as definites. 1 solar watt to 1 AH capacity is the minimum one should strive for.

Other charging sources, if available, should be employed whenever they are available when the batteries are depleted.

There is no such thing as too much solar. A battery whose solar controller goes into float at 10AM will be a much happier battery than the one whose solar controller goes into float at 2pm. 10 AM is not too much solar. It is not a waste of Solar. it is not a sign of an imbalanced system, It is a marker of a system with happy batteries. When i say float, i am not meaning a premature reversion to float voltages, but that the solar has brought the battery to at least 14.4volts and held it there for at least 2 hours, before reverting to float. Few batteries require less than this, most require more and some much more, when cycled daily.

Ideal chargnig voltages are different for each battery, and the battery manufacturer recommendations are great starting points, but actually getting the battery to full charge, maximum specific gravity, which is required for IDEAL battery longevity, can be a lot different that the manufacturer recommendations.

With Flooded batteries,, and if one cares to maximize lifespan, and seek to approach Ideal, dip a hydrometer when your solar controller goes into float, and you will likely be surprised just how badly that flashing green light has been lying to you.

AGm batteries are much harder to determine how they are responding to any charging source.

Noticing trends and tendencies of voltage under load and amperage required to hold absorption voltages are required for AGM's, If one cares to be a battery nerd seeking ultimate lifespan.

It is far easier to just use the batteries until the day they no longer meet one's capacity needs.

They are, after all, just batteries, and just rented. The length of the rental contract is variable with their treatment.
You can stress it, or not.

Tales of battery longevity, without knowing how the batteries were treated, are worthless.

And internet claims mean nothing. Keyboard Cojones can apparently make anyone an expert in anything.

Often batteries are said to last X amount of years. this is a worthless figure. Now if the batteries are said to have lasted 5 years being cycled 100 times a year to 50%, then this has relevance, but only to the person cycling their batteries 100 times a year to 50% and who uses the same charging sources for just as long.

A full time van dweller requirement of their batteries is MUCH different than the occassional Rv'er. Wel all use different amounts of battery power, discharge them more or less than the next dweller, and the 'Ideal' recharge regimen is different for all of us.

If you seek to approach 'Ideal' then it can be taken to ridiculous levels, and be more effort than it is worth.

Seeking adequate battery lifespan is not very hard to accomplish.
But it is easy to accomplish the inadequate system. Overdischarging and undercharging will have a battery fail to meet one needs, then yield a battery which 'no longer takes a charge' far too soon.

So with solar, plan for more. Hard to have too much
Regarding battery capacity, if you plan to use 50% per night, plan to replace 65% of it by noon the next day, however you can. Solar, alternator generator and plug in charger, or a wind turbine too.

If you never go below 80% state of charge, you have too much battery capacity, 80% of the time or more.

There is a balance, and often recommendations and chosen paths are out of whack with reality.

Beware of 'bragging rights' systems or claims of longevity. Even if the longevity claims are true, they might have absolutely nothing in common with how you plan to use your batteries, and are completely irrelevant, and serve only to confuse, or perhaps sooth, or just boost the ego of the person who made ridiculous claims of longevity.

Trust, but verify. If you go flooded batteries, get a hydrometer and check that lying , yet soothing flashing green light.
 
question for Bob. Could you clarify 12 volt 100 ah lasting longer than two gc six volt 225 ah?
 
A 12v 100 Ah battery has 50 usable amp hours before requiring a recharge. Two 225 Ah 6v in series to make 12v have 112 usable amp hours before the hit 50% and have to be recharged. Golf cart batteries can handle being recharged many more times than most 12v batteries due to thicker plates. So they can provide more energy and do it more times.
 
ccbreder said:
question for Bob. Could you clarify 12 volt 100 ah lasting longer than two gc six volt 225 ah?

While I obviously can't speak for Bob, keep in mind that with 200W of PV panel (which is what Bob recommended), a 225Ah battery bank is more likely to suffer from chronic undercharging than is a 100Ah battery bank.
 
AuricTech said:
While I obviously can't speak for Bob, keep in mind that with 200W of PV panel (which is what Bob recommended), a 225Ah battery bank is more likely to suffer from chronic undercharging than is a 100Ah battery bank.

I would agree.  Best thing up front is to keep electric needs to a realistic minimum, so as to reduce the needed amp-hours.
 
AuricTech Wrote: said:
While I obviously can't speak for Bob, keep in mind that with 200W of PV panel (which is what Bob recommended), a 225Ah battery bank is more likely to suffer from chronic undercharging than is a 100Ah battery bank.
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] LeeRevell[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I would agree.  Best thing up front is to keep electric needs to a realistic minimum, so as to reduce the needed amp-hours.[/font]








[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]If you are not using much, the larger battery bank will stay topped up, and in case of a series of cloudy days it will provide you with power.  [/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I only have one 100A panel, and 448 AH of battery.  Why so much?  I found a deal where I got 4 batteries for the cost of one. I have yet to use more power in a day than my solar can replace.  [/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]That is me and my use. [/font]
 
akrvbob wrote:


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]"If you want your battery to last a little longer but have less overnight storage, just get a single 110 ah 12 volt battery."[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif](ah=amp hour, a standard unit of measure in battery storage capacity)[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]That was a confusing choice of words. By "last longer" I meant their overall life before you have to replace them with new batteries.  One 110 ah 12 volt will have half the storage capacity of a pair of 225 6 volt golf carts.Therefore you will have less overnight storage. (I'm rounding here, lets not quibble on a few ah)[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I'm still a proponent of 1-1 ratio of watts on the panels to ah in the battery. I'm not sold yet on needing half as much.  I know and understand Sternwakes argument and I can see the logic in it but my batteries almost always float before noon and if the batteries aren't getting to 100% the problem is with my charger not with the ratio of panels to battery ah. I need to buy a better charger or learn how to use the one I have. Neither of those are likely to happen.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]And if I did want to keep a 2-1 ratio of solar watts to ah, I would still set a minimum of 200 ah in batteries (2 golf carts or 2, 12 volt deep cycle)  and I would raise the solar panels to 300 watts. [/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Louis, yes, I prefer 6 volt golf carts to 12 volt deep cycle. However, with your 325 watts of solar I might get 3, 12 volt deep cycles instead--or just go with 2 golf carts. I gave 380 watts feeding 4 golf carts and my batteries are rarely off float!! Right now I don't have a fridge, but I do use my microwave nearly every day.[/font]


[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Where to put them. Two of mine are behind the driver seat and two are behind the passenger seat. They are FWC and unvented. I'm very happy with them there.[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Bob[/font]
 
Bob;
Have you had any issues with damage from the vented gasses? M Saturn is in excellent condition and I would like to keep it that way for sale/trade purposes. hoping to find a Chevy 3500 4x4 extended.
 
Top