PD9245 hook up question

[dogear52]

OK, got the PD9245, two 4 gauge copper stranded cables, 6' ea. with +/- clamps and connected to +/- on the PD unit. The pendant is on the way. I think I have the hook up plan correct but need to be sure.There is a ground connection on the unit for grounding on the chassis, but at present the batteries and unit are in the building....no chassis, and I need to engage the batteries to charge and maintain. The two 6v batteries are connected in series and my question is: given no chassis to ground unit or batteries to, do I connect a grounding wire to the ground terminal on the PD and then run it to the neg. battery post used in the series tie in (not the neg post the PD unit neg cable is clamped to)?

 

[SternWake]

The grounding lug on the external converter casing is to ground to the AC ground, the third plug on an AC receptacle. I would not ground it to the battery (-) I personally do not bother hooking this up at all.

120Vac electricity is not my strong point so I'll let the qualified Household electricians here explain the purpose of this.

When the Pendant arrives, and is plugged in, presing the button once will have the PD shoot for 14.4volts, and apply maximum amperage required to get the batteries to 14.4v and it holds it for 4 hours, whether the battery needs 4 hours at 14.4v or not

If the batteries are fully charged, or close to it, they will not require much amperage to reach 14.4v. The PD9245 in my possession, but not mine, goes upto 14.56v

Holding the Pendant button until it starts rapidly blinking will have the unit apply enough amperage to hold 13.6v( 13.73 on my unit) they call this normal mode. I am not sure how long it holds this 'normal mode' before reverting to 'storage' mode. i have not seen it do so automatically yet. I've always just forced 14.4v or 13.2 v modes via the pendant.

Holding the pendant button till the light goes out will force it into 13.2v( 13.34v on mine) storage mode. The light will flash briefly once about every 5 seconds.

Every 18 hours or so it will goose battery voltage to 14.4v. PD calls this equalization, but they are smoking crack. This goosing just mixes up the electrolyte, de stratifying it. if the battery was not truly fully charged, this 15 minutes at 14.4v will help get it closer too.

I have witnessed this destratification cycle, but since it was on an AGM battery, which does not require destratification, and since I know it was already fully charged, I forced it back into 13.2v storage mode.

Even when not plugged into the grid, the pendant light will flash and respond to pressing as if it were still plugged into the grid.

Mine makes some weird noises when charging, that are not related to the fan firing up. the heatsink gets surprisingly warm even when the unit is not making much power to hold the battery at wither of the 3 voltages.

 

[dogear52]

Thanks SterWake. Well, I disregarded the ground as mentioned and plugged the PD into the AC wall outlet and....absolutely nothing. Both fuses look good and pos and neg cables hooked in correctly from PD to batteries unless I'm mistaken. Am I supposed to clamp onto the tied in pos and neg posts? Bad unit?

 

[dogear52]

Disregard. Looks like I'm doing everything right....will be calling PD about replacement. This thing's DOA.

 

[SternWake]

That is dismaying.


I assume since you got the Schumacher to work that you have the 6v batteries in series, not parallel,  and that you are putting the (-) on one battery and the (+) on the other battery.

The 2 batteries should be in the 12.8v range if fully charged from the Schumacher a few weeks ago and not used since.

  I've mostly seen mine just start in 13.6v normal mode when first plugged in, and the Lifeline AGM fully charged requires well less than 0.1 amp to be brought upto 13.6v.  I guess it could just try and start in 13.2v storage mode without a pendant to force any 'stages'

Since without the pendant, there is no lights to actually indicate it is doing anything, you would have to check voltage with a digital multimeter and see if it moves at all from ~12.8v.  The noise mine makes is not always present, and the fan only runs when it gets hot, making 25 or more amps.

Do you have any 12v loads handy to reduce the battery voltage then restart the unit?

The two fuses  on the unit are only for protection in case of hooking it up reverse polarity.

If it is a failed unit, I hope getting a functioning unit is not a PITA.  PD has a  good reputation, except when powered by Onan generators for some reason, or if input voltage drops below 105vAC.

 

[dogear52]

The batteries are in series and clamps attached to the remaining posts (+ on b1 and - b2) and volt meter reads 6.32 on on , 6.31 on the other and 12.7 together. The PD just seems dead as a rock when plugged in....not even a slight hum. I could attach an inverter and plug in an ac appliance to drain them some and then try again. I was hoping they are actually reading lower than they are and the PD is reading fully charged and sensing no need to kick in.....but from what I understand so far it should at least read at 13.2v output on a fully charged battery set.They've been sitting on the hardwood floor since the Schumacher tried to kill them and were overcharged when I yanked them to safety. Fluid level is good. I'll be calling PD tomorrow if I can't get it to start. Thanks again SternWake. I'll update later.

 

[SternWake]

Did you buy it directly from PD?

Did you try another outlet?

Hope this situation is resolved.

12.7v is a very acceptable number for a rested flooded battery.

 

[dogear52]

SternWake, I bought it thru Amazon. I don't know why, but before I tried the inverter drain plan I plugged it in again and it started up...13.6 output and ran it for about 10 minutes. Do you think I should wait for the pendant before I trust and keep it all plugged in permanently? I guess voltage should eventually drop to 13.2 float charge. Pendant should arrive soon. Batteries are @ 12.77 now.

 

[SternWake]

SternWake, I don't know why, but before I tried the inverter drain plan I plugged it in again and it started up...13.6 output and ran it for about 10 minutes.  Do you think I should wait for the pendant before I trust and keep it all plugged in permanently? I guess voltage should eventually drop to 13.2 float charge. Pendant should arrive soon. Batteries are @ 12.77 now.

If you really want to get technical, a hydrometer is the answer.  

13.6v is a bit high for long term float voltage for a flooded battery.

I do not know how long it remains at 13.6 before reverting to 13.2.

I never witnessed it revert to 13.2 on its own, I always forced it via the pendant, and the powerpack with PD9245 installed within that I built for a friend, is going home with him today 200 miles away, so you will have to tell me.

I would not stress 13.6v. for a day or 2.  The schumacher was holding them at an overvoltage but it does not necessarily mean they were absolutely fully charged.  it depends on the amperage they were taking at that voltage.

A baseline Hydrometer reading right now, for future reference, is very wise.  Note any weaker cells.  There is usually one which reads 0.005 lower than the rest.  You are hoping for 1.275, but this can range +/- 0.015, and now is the best time to establish the fully charged baseline Specific gravity so in the future you can charge them until this baseline is reachieved.  it might take voltages upto 16volts to accomplish though, and the PD cannot do that.  However the more often they are returned to full charge, the less often 16V Equalization charge will be required.

I use the OTC 4619 Hydrometer.  Though Francis Freas are the most accurate and precise, and $$.

 

[dogear52]

I only have a cheap WM pocket hydrometer at present. I'm going to pick up a better one @ O'Reilly's today and test the cells. I'll run the PD tonight and keep an eye on voltage to see if it drops to float. Thanks again SternWake.

 

[ZoNiE]

I had one in my motorhome. Check that the two fuses are not missing. Look for empty female spade lug sockets next to each other near the 12V power connections.

 

[dogear52]

Thanks Zonie. Fuses are present and good. Hope it was a one time glitch.

 

[dogear52]

Got a (good?) glass hydrometer at O'reillys for $6. Ran the PD for a few hrs last night then today checked the cells.
Batt A cell 1: 1255 Batt B cell 1: 1265
A cell 2: 1260 B cell 2: 1260
A cell 3: 1260 B cell 3: 1265
Voltage before cell check was 12.76v. The pendant was due today but they sent the PD9100 device, so I'll have to wait another week, if they have them in stock. The Camping Store on Amazon sold me the PD9245 for $155 but the ad has the model number which ends in a "V", which means a pendant comes with the unit, but I didn't receive the pendant so called last week when the unit arrived and they said they weren't aware of the "V" meaning and don't include the pendant with their PD9245 sales. I said the ad was misleading and should be corrected and I should still receive the pendant. The gal sounded like I was out of luck so I pressed the issue and she said she needed to verify my info....she called back, apologized and said they just happened to have a pendant in stock and then sent the wrong device. It's been a cluster f**k since I picked up these batteries.

 

[SternWake]

That seems a bit low on the SG. Temperature has a huge effect on SG readings. Higher temperatures one needs to add to the value read and lower temperatures need to subtract. the Median temperature is 77F, sometimes 80F. the value added or subtracted in my experience and mild climate is rarely more than 0.008.

When checking while charging the cells in the middle will be hotter than the ones on the end and this will throw off readings if not compensated for.

When charging at higher states of charge, the battery will be warming up, and SG readings will appear to have stopped rising, until one factors in the temperature compensation.

Generally batteries sold for southern warmer climates will have electrolyte of 1.265 range while ones for northern Climates will be closer to 1.300.

The highest I ever saw on my group31 USbattery was 1.290 but 1.285 is what i aimed for, and that is assuming my hydrometer is accurate.

The hydrometer you have might not be very accurate, so the readings can only be compared to future readings using the same hydrometer.

The OTC 4619 has a built in thermometer which tells you how much to add or subtract from the value that the float indicates.

Also make sure there are no bubbles sticking to the float when taking readings. Be sure to rinse out the hydrometer after using it and leave the bulb off and allow it to dry fully. Save the plastic housing it was sold in for storage. The Glass floats are very fragile.

Sorry to hear of the issues with Amazon. Usually they are on top of things even if they are not the seller. Raise some more stink demand free 2 day shipping or they will get a bad review.

 

[dogear52]

I'm in KC and it's been hot and humid and I only use fans....no ac. I hope the Schumacher isn't to blame for the low #s. I might see if I can find a better hydrometer to borrow. The gal at The Camping Store (RV Parts Nation) seemed like she wants to be fair, but I'll push if needed. Thanks for more info/tips, SternWake.

 

[SternWake]

Nah, the Schumacher didn't harm them on just one overcharge.

Batteries do self discharge more at higher temperatures. You can plug in the PD again and see if the Sg rises. Hook up the Drok if you still have it and see how many amps the batteries are taking when the PD seeks 13.6. Screw the shunt right onto the (-) of the one battery and just run the red wire to the (+) of the other, screw the yellow wire to the battery side of the shunt and the black wire to the series cable side of the shunt. You will need to reverse black and yellow for seeing loads versus charging sources. Stranded wire under the screws is fine for testing, just not for permanent install.

Try dropping the voltage via an inverter powering a larger load and then plugging in the PD so that it goes into boost mode on its own.

The Drok is hardly perfect but it is a good learning tool, and you can figure out how much certain devices consume before moving into the vehicle.

Finding the maximum SG now when the batteries are new is very wise. The OTC4619 is a good hydrometer, just for the temperature compensation.

I started with the oreilleys glass hydrometer too. i gave up on it the first time the end of it fell off when filled with acid and broke the float as well. i then taped the end on and used it only to refill batteries with H20, and then found the OTC4619 was better at doing that as well.

 

[dogear52]

I put the OTC4619 on my Amazon wish list for next month....will also have the $ to get the DROK. I was having trouble with the float in the hydrometer free floating....top always sticking to the inside of tube. I'll try again with your suggestions and also try to keep float free.

 

[SternWake]

I put the OTC4619 on my Amazon wish list for next month....will also have the $ to get the DROK. I was having trouble with the float in the hydrometer free floating....top always sticking to the inside of tube. I'll try again with your suggestions and also try to keep float free.

The picture oreilly shows of that hydrometer, the Float is upside down.

If the top of the Float  is sticking to the glass walls, you are using the float upside down.  If the float is upside down but the numbers are upright, it is a manufacturing error.

In which case i'm surprised you were able to get numbers in the range they are supposed to be.

The float needs to be in this orientation, and with no bubbles sticking to it.

 

[dogear52]

My bad. As I wrote I was going by a reverse false memory. It was sticking at the bottom to the wall which caused the float to be at an angle with air bubbles. I rinsed it out well with distilled h20 and got .oo5 higher numbers @ >80 degrees. Being on the floor it's hard to get used to using it with my screwed up neck. I think I need to get the batteries off the floor and better adjusted to using it then the readings should be more accurate....and higher.

 

[SternWake]

I thought so, but was just double checking.


That little piece of paper could be installed in the float 5 MM too high or low and throw off readings by 0.015.

So it is comparable to itself for future readings, but not necessarily to other hydrometers and no necessarily representative of actual SG.

So when you get the pendant, and force 14.4v to be held for longer, you can see if SG rises further, or is already at its maximum.

But since charging will warm up electrolyte, and that specific hydrometer has no indicator of electrolyte temperature, readings can appear to have stopped rising on the float, but if compensated for rising temps, can still be responding to the charging current.

When i take readings I make a chart with 6 cells 12v battery, note the date, the external temperature of the middle of the top of the battery, the SG reading on the float for that cell, the + or - number the OTC's thermometer tells me to add or subtract, and a estimation of how many MM below the hanging arms in the cells that the electrolyte level resides.

When electrolyte levels drop to nearer the tops of the plates, the Sg will read higher when fully charged.

After refilling the cells to a mm or 2 below the hanging arms in each cell, the SG readings will read very low until recharged again, and they will still read lower than before refilling.

Never add water, unless plates are exposed, when the battery is less than fully charged.  If you do add water to the correct level when less than fully charged, and then charge it fully, it will likely burp some acid out of the cells and then still appear overfilled.

Voltage under load after a refilling, drops faster and is a bit alarming.  Expect to see this if you watch the voltmeter often during discharge

However after refilling the acid is weaker and less corrosive to the plates, and the lesser voltages are nothing to be concerned about.

In the beginning, the batteries will not use much water.  As their cycles accumulate, water use accelerates and the level must be checked more often.

The rate at which the battery uses water indicates 2 things, the time spent at or close to Absorption voltage where bubbling and offgassing occurs, and when under the same recharge regimen, when water usage accellerates and this rate of water loss increases then increases further, that the end is approaching.

it is too easy to say I check it every 3 months and it is always fine and does not need much, but at some point it will require watering every month, and if you go 3 months at that point, the plates will be exposed, and refilling at that point, is too little too late.

Once the plates become exposed on an older battery, the battery is basically done for, with little chance of restoring it to usable capacity.  If it happens sooner in the battery's lifespan, refilling can allow it to still perform adequately.

I basically had 2 sets of battery's lives about 2/3 the way through, terminated at that point as I did not notice the accelerated  water usage until it was too late. After refilling, even an aggressive equalization charge had no effect. Voltage tanked during discharge to alarming levels and I was buying new batteries shortly after. 

  These were 12v batteries.  6v GC batteries have more electrolyte over the tops of the plates, and are also much more likely to recover from such abuse, and require less time at absorption voltages to fully charge.

So the hydrometer can tell you how long absorption voltage needs to be held, so you do not have to hold them up there longer than needed, which causes positive plate shedding and more water usage.

The PD gives you the option of holding 14.4v for as long as needed, and ending 14.4v when needed too.

Do note the voltage at which the PD9245 maxes out.  it is supposed to be 14.4v, but the unit I tested went upto 14.56v, and 13.6v normal mode  was actually 13.73v, and 13.2v storage mode was actually 13.34v.

US battery wants a float voltage of 13.06v at 77F so the PD9245 is a little high for long term storage floating.

Pretty much impossible to find an affordable charger which meets manufacturer specs perfectly.

That 23$ power supply I've linked in the past, and do not recommend for novices, can hold an exact voltage, such as 13.06v, if dialed in to do so when not attached to the battery(s), and then connected.  The danger with this cheapowatt power supply is when higher voltages are chosen and hooked to a depleted battery. and this is why it cannot be recommended.

This is the product I specifically do not recommend:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...d_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687542&pf_rd_i=B00ENFBXQS

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27939135/srt/pa/pging/1.cfm

The Megawatt power supplies are more expensive but have protections against overloading which deleted batteries will do:
http://www.12voltpowersupplies.us/

I wound up with a MeanWell RSP-500-15 which will supply 40 amps at any voltage from 13.12v to 19.23volts.  I love this power supply.  Ultimate manual control.