Old Folks ever shrinking world.

[ACagedTraveller]

The following sentence involves an opposing viewpoint. Why should young people care about the problems of older people that, from a statistical viewpoint, often consume more resources than they contribute towards a group? As a matter of fact, certain native tribes of North America often had elders that left the group voluntarily because they became a burden upon the groups resources. This promotion of "Compassion" in our society often has captialistic connotations because certain industries profit from the continuation of life for elderly populations.

 

[Marie]

Perhaps, Caged, because the people who are now old, once were the people who cared for us, taught us, built our communities. They had physical value when they were younger, the have accumulated knowledge now. Elders are the keepers of the magic: the ones who know what to do when an emergency arises - because they have seen it all before! Elders also keep the history of the "tribe". They are the story tellers and historians. The value of the elders is not in what physical labor they can do, but in what they have built, and what they know, and what they can pass on to the new generations.

 

[buckwilk]

The following sentence involves an opposing viewpoint. Why should young people care about the problems of older people that, from a statistical viewpoint, often consume more resources than they contribute towards a group? As a matter of fact, certain native tribes of North America often had elders that left the group voluntarily because they became a burden upon the groups resources. This promotion of "Compassion" in our society often has captialistic connotations because certain industries profit from the continuation of life for elderly populations.

We don't live in a native tribe any longer. Caring for others, regardless of their age, is what civil society does. Certain native tribes of north america practiced cannibalism. In for a penny, in for a pound.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

The following sentence involves an opposing viewpoint. Why should young people care about the problems of older people that, from a statistical viewpoint, often consume more resources than they contribute towards a group? As a matter of fact, certain native tribes of North America often had elders that left the group voluntarily because they became a burden upon the groups resources. This promotion of "Compassion" in our society often has captialistic connotations because certain industries profit from the continuation of life for elderly populations.

so I am curious what you think would be a good outcome to resolve the problem of non productive elders. Euthanize? what do you see as a good age to do this at, perhaps instead of pensioning them off or earlier when they start slowing down. What about the age group from birth to 22, those are pretty unproductive years, a lot money going into education and driving to dance class, compassion advertising getting the best of us again, can we eliminate this group, why should we care? especially if we are between 23 and 45 well educated living big on our euthanized parents property.

 

[Cammalu]

The following sentence involves an opposing viewpoint. Why should young people care about the problems of older people that, from a statistical viewpoint, often consume more resources than they contribute towards a group? As a matter of fact, certain native tribes of North America often had elders that left the group voluntarily because they became a burden upon the groups resources. This promotion of "Compassion" in our society often has captialistic connotations because certain industries profit from the continuation of life for elderly populations.

You are kidding right? Shall we fire up the gas ovens again?

 

[akrvbob]

The following sentence involves an opposing viewpoint. Why should young people care about the problems of older people that, from a statistical viewpoint, often consume more resources than they contribute towards a group? As a matter of fact, certain native tribes of North America often had elders that left the group voluntarily because they became a burden upon the groups resources. 

But, what you are leaving out was that almost universally elders were by far the most respected and revered members of the tribe. Sincere and profound respect for elders was nearly universally held by all Hunter Gatherers. Without advanced health care when a persons life was no longer really viable, they just ended it. 

Until then they were cared for and treasured as VIPs.

That's a philosophy we would be very wise to adapt for ourselves.
Bob

 

[Gary68]

"Traditional nomadic tribes often end up abandoning their elderly during their unrelenting travels. The choice for the healthy and young is to do this or carry the old and infirm on their backs — along with children, weapons and necessities — through perilous territory. Also prone to sacrificing their elderly are societies that suffer periodic famines. Citing a dramatic example, Diamond said Paraguay’s Aché Indians assign certain young men the task of killing old people with an ax or spear, or burying them alive."
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/jared-diamond-on-aging-150571



"Heruli[edit]
The Heruli were a Germanic tribe during the Migration Period (about 400 to 800 CE). Procopius states in his work The Wars, that the Heruli placed the sick and elderly on a tall stack of wood and stabbed them to death before setting the pyre alight.
India[edit]
Senicide is currently practiced[citation needed] in Tamil Nadu, a state of India. The traditional practice of senicide by the family members is called Thalaikoothal. In this custom, the elderly person is given an extensive oil-bath early in the morning and subsequently made to drink glasses of tender coconut water which results in renal failure, high fever, fits, and death within a day or two.[11][12] In 2010, after an expose in Virudhunagar district, the administration set up teams of officers to monitor the senior citizens.[13]
Inuit[edit]
A common belief is that the Inuit would leave their elderly on the ice to die.[14] Senicide among the Inuit people was rare, except during famines. The last known case of an Inuit senicide was in 1939.[15][16][17]
Japan[edit]
Ubasute (姥捨, abandoning an old woman), a custom allegedly performed in Japan in the distant past, whereby an infirm or elderly relative was carried to a mountain, or some other remote, desolate place, and left there to die. This custom has been vividly depicted in the The Ballad of Narayama (a 1956 novel by Shichirō Fukazawa, a 1958 film, and a 1983 film)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senicide

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/senicide

geronticide (plural geronticides) The killing or euthanasia of the elderly 2000, Michael Brogden & Preeti Nijhar, Crime, Abuse and the Elderly, p. 33. Maxwell et al. (1982) studied geronticide practices in some ninety-five different societies.

and dont even go near child sacrifice and such,gets real ugly real quick
not sure how this pro tridal life came to be,maybe time to put down the romantic novel and check out historical fact

http://www.reclinercommentaries.com/2011/04/fate-worse-than-death.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-butchered-babies-roasted-enemies-alive.html

like i have said before,when you look at history,there is no good only different levels of ugly

 

[Dust-In-the-Wind]

How do you know you're getting old?

Everything you have hurts....and if it doesn't hurt, it doesn't work.

Life is like a roll of toilet paper....the closer you get to the end, the faster it goes.

Death whispers in my ear; "live, for I am coming".

 

[mockturtle]

The Inuits do not leave their elders on the ice to die but the elders sometimes choose to go off to die on an ice floe.  This happens in other tribes, too.  But the critical feature here is that it is a choice and that the elder is usually sick or very debilitated.  Personally, I would choose an ice floe over many other types of death but I would not want it imposed on me by some neo-Hitlerian order.

 

[akrvbob]

"Traditional nomadic tribes often end up abandoning their elderly during their unrelenting travels. 
like i have said before,when you look at history,there is no good only different levels of ugly

Gary, no one is denying it happened because it did. However I totally disagree with you characterizing it as ugly. 

Anthropology and studying Hunter-Gatherers is a hobby of mine and what you are leaving out is that there world-view was totally different from ours. The highest value in nearly all civilized societies is selfishness, independence and individuality. Our entire world-view is filled with it and it's very difficult for us to see anything except through that window.

The world of the Hunter-Gatherers was totally different, their highest value was generosity and connectivity to each other. If one ate the all ate. If one was hungry they were all hungry. Their lives were so inter-dependent they spent their entire lives within eyesight of each other and literally raised each others children. 

In a very literal sense the village raised each child and it also took care of every old person with just as much love and devotion. 

Almost universally the elderly were treasured and cared for until the last day of their life. They didn't go hungry unless the whole tribe was going hungry. Yes, if it came to it, it was expected that if they were a burden to the tribe and if it was their lives or the life of the tribe, they would die. But it was understood by EVERY member that was the right and best thing to happen.

In our eyes that's ugly but let's compare that to what we do. We ignore and despise our elderly. We hide them away in homes were they often abused and treated terribly. If they can't go there we let them starve and eat dog food and live in total squalor but we make sure they stay healthy so they can't escape from the misery they live with. If they are in constant pain from a disease, we FORCE them to stay alive. If a doctor or family helps them die, that person is sent to jail.

We make sure they stay alive but couldn't care less about the quality or misery of their lives. 

No, our society is the ugly monsters who keeps the elderly alive apparently for the sole purpose to torture them every day of their lives.

Obviously this isn't true of every elderly person, especially now when the Boomers are retiring from a time when a pension was a standard part of business. But even now there is a large percentage of elderly, especially women, who are being treated exactly as I describe here. In 20 years the majority of us are going to end up like this because pensions have dissapeared and Social Security is flawed and there really is no fix for it. 
Bob

 

[gcal]

Gary, no one is denying it happened because it did. However I totally disagree with you characterizing it as ugly. 

Anthropology and studying Hunter-Gatherers is a hobby of mine and what you are leaving out is that there world-view was totally different from ours. The highest value in nearly all civilized societies is selfishness, independence and individuality. Our entire world-view is filled with it and it's very difficult for us to see anything except through that window.

The world of the Hunter-Gatherers was totally different, their highest value was generosity and connectivity to each other. If one ate the all ate. If one was hungry they were all hungry. Their lives were so inter-dependent they spent their entire lives within eyesight of each other and literally raised each others children. 

In a very literal sense the village raised each child and it also took care of every old person with just as much love and devotion. 

Almost universally the elderly were treasured and cared for until the last day of their life. They didn't go hungry unless the whole tribe was going hungry. Yes, if it came to it, it was expected that if they were a burden to the tribe and if it was their lives or the life of the tribe, they would die. But it was understood by EVERY member that was the right and best thing to happen.

In our eyes that's ugly but let's compare that to what we do. We ignore and despise our elderly. We hide them away in homes were they often abused and treated terribly. If they can't go there we let them starve and eat dog food and live in total squalor but we make sure they stay healthy so they can't escape from the misery they live with. If they are in constant pain from a disease, we FORCE them to stay alive. If a doctor or family helps them die, that person is sent to jail.

We make sure they stay alive but couldn't care less about the quality or misery of their lives. 

No, our society is the ugly monsters who keeps the elderly alive apparently for the sole purpose to torture them every day of their lives.

Obviously this isn't true of every elderly person, especially now when the Boomers are retiring from a time when a pension was a standard part of business. But even now there is a large percentage of elderly, especially women, who are being treated exactly as I describe here. In 20 years the majority of us are going to end up like this because pensions have dissapeared and Social Security is flawed and there really is no fix for it. 
Bob

Yes, there's an easy fix for social security. You raise the social security taxes temporarily until the boomer hump is over. You import young workers to help pay those taxes. You raise full retirement age. 

It's Medicare that will be tricky. We have a hard time admitting that we will die. We throw way too much money into dragging out a few more months of very low quality existence.

 

[Gary68]

Bob,we definitely see history through different eyes which is understandable since we have different eyes
and no argument on the "retirement home" thing,i'll take under any bridge before that
but we have a couple things bringing on a perfect storm

1-the natural response to over population,my great grandparents had 12 kids,grandparents had 8,parents had 3,i have 0 and my sister had 2

2-the unnatural medical advances

i'm surrounded by 70 year olds and not many kids around and the "tribe" just cant handle that

now this problem could be easily solved by taking our money out of the killing machine and putting in to a living machine i just dont think that will happen any time soon

so there is a situation here and i dont think the government will help and we are not going to "round you up and put you in a oven",so in the meantime you keep showing them how to crap in a bucket and i'll find them a rig for under $1000

b.t.w i'm and oregonian,death with dignity,medical marijuana and gay rights
i would like to think i was open minded but it might just be that i get my marijuana from elderly lesbians<not a joke

 

[gcal]

Bob,we definitely see history through different eyes which is understandable since we have different eyes
and no argument on the "retirement home" thing,i'll take under any bridge before that
but we have a couple things bringing on a perfect storm

1-the natural response to  over population,my great grandparents had 12 kids,grandparents had 8,parents had 3,i have 0 and my sister had 2

2-the unnatural medical advances

i'm surrounded by 70 year olds and not many kids around and the "tribe" just cant handle that

now this problem could be easily solved by taking our money out of the killing machine and putting in to a living machine i just dont think that will happen any time soon

so there is a situation here and i dont think the government will help and we are not going to "round you up and put you in a oven",so in the meantime you keep showing them how to crap in a bucket and i'll find them a rig for under $1000

b.t.w i'm and oregonian,death with dignity,medical marijuana and gay rights
i would like to think i was open minded but it might just be that i get my marijuana from elderly lesbians<not a joke

_-------_-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are an animal like any other in Nature's eyes. If we do not control our own population she will do it for us, and has done so many times in the past.

 

[Patrick46]

I wanna die here...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Great White]

Nursing home? I'll jump off the cliff, Thanks.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

not sure why nursing homes or old folks residents are getting such a bad rap, sure there are a few that sit around drewling in a towel on their shoulders in front of a tv set all day long, but what I saw of nursing homes this summer when my mum was convalescing from a fall was like a spa, a nice single room with a tv, bathroom and closets, a comfy chair, good food, served to you, a nice public room with a view of the river, organized events and a courtyard with gatherings of patients, seems pretty good to me what is not to like, would you rather sit in some apartment or house that you struggle to keep clean waiting for your busy kids to come for a visit or playing pool, shuffle board, cards or yaking with your mates selling used lottery tickets to the not so together and cruising the old girls, I know what I would prefer, I think old folks homes can be fun and social for elders.

 

[bcbullet]

I put this as a new thread in Chit Chat, but maybe it is better here...a 2 minute youtube video.

 

[buckwilk]

"History is ugly. Surrounded by 70 year olds. Unnatural medical advances. Population control." Gary68 " We make sure they stay alive but couldn't care less about the quality or misery of their lives." Bob

I am thankful that I don't feel this way about life.

 

[SaltySeaWitch]

I wanna die here...

What a great place. I love the attitude toward the elderly and that putting them in a home would be shameful to the families. I would love to live there and then die there after a long time   Thanks for sharing the story Patrick!

 

[SaltySeaWitch]

not sure why nursing homes or old folks residents are getting such a bad rap, sure there are a few that sit around drewling in a towel on their shoulders in front of a tv set all day long, but what I saw of nursing homes this summer when my mum was convalescing from a fall was like a spa, a nice single room with a tv, bathroom and closets, a comfy chair, good food, served to you, a nice public room with a view of the river, organized events and a courtyard with gatherings of patients, seems pretty good to me what is not to like, would you rather sit in some apartment or house that you struggle to keep clean waiting for your busy kids to come for a visit or playing pool, shuffle board, cards or yaking with your mates selling used lottery tickets to the not so together and cruising the old girls, I know what I would prefer, I think old folks homes can be fun and social for elders.

She must be in a very nice (and probably) expensive place. I have worked in lots of Nursing Homes and they were awful except for one and it was still pretty bad and sad because most elderly are abandoned by family. The homes reek of urine and death and are always short staffed. I will take the ice berg before I will ever be in one. Very glad your mum had a good one though. I wish more were like you described.