My Very Own Solar System (Yikes!)

[Gone Galavanting]

Hi Folks,
  New here, will be full time van dweller by mid February. Have a 2007 Ford Extended Cargo Van.  So the problem is.. I have a few short circuits hanging out in my brain when it comes to anything electrical.
   I have spent a huge amount of time reading, decided what I wanted, read some more, changed my mind, rinse, repeat et cetera. Initially I had planned on something simply and low key, maybe 100 watts. But then I decided I wanted to be a power hog and as I am fortunate enough to have the funds to do it right now, I was going to get the best system I could and hope it lasts for a very long time. FINALLY made some purchases, will need to have an install done. Most of my questions have been asked/answered on here regarding other setups (I have done a LOT of reading), but every setup seems to be unique, so I'm hoping for input specifically towards mine so I don't miss anything.

Went with a Renogy 400 watt kit (in price shopping, there are many prices for these from Renogy depending on where you look: Renogy/Amazon/Ebay) The folks at Renogy told me that they would match Amazon or Ebay, but when I got my final quote from them I found that I could pick up one of their kits on Amazon and order the controller I wanted separately and end up with a better price then if I just went directly through Renogy.

Have a Morningstar Prostar Controller PS-30M

Samlex PST 2000-12 Pure sine inverter

Trimetric 2030 Battery Monitor

4 Trojan T105's

So, here come the questions:
Does anyone see any major problems with this setup?
1)Are 4 batteries (vs 2) overkill?

2)What kind of battery box (s) are being used for the T105's? And a good source for those?

3)I'd like to fit two vents on the roof also, going to be a tight squeeze spacewise. Ideally, I'd like to go with cheap vents with a cover, computer fan..but... I'm concerned about the covers shading the panels and would like to minimize that. Suggestions?

4)Any recommends for a great installer who does good work@a fair price. I'm currently in Eastern Washington, will be spending some time in Portland, OR, area, then SE Idaho, Then hopefully on to AZ.  So not really tied to a specific area if someone knows where I can find an uber installer.

5) Also, anyone with "I wish I would have known BEFORE" kind of advice, if it pertains to my system, please toss it my way. I want to make as few as mistakes with this as possible.

6) Van layout... cringe!! I have cabinets that I had hoped to have on the passenger side in the rear, but, the best place that I'm seeing for the batteries is over the passenger side rear axle. My thinking is that if they are on the driver's side it will be too much weight, (myself, fuel tank). I also don't like the idea of sleeping on top of them, although it's probably okay. They will be vented wherever they end up at, but does anyone have any clever ideas for where they should end up at?

Thanks All, GG

PS, I still have to get some of the wiring, battery cables, fuses etc.

 

[Canine]

If you are going to use that the full 2000 watts of that inverter, you will appreciate having 4 batteries. 2 probably is borderline; it might be good for a couple years, but when the batteries invariably start to wear out, you will feel it. (I would like to get a second opinion on this, though.)

As far as shading, you don't want to minimize it- you want to eliminate it when possible. Doesn't always happen. Shading is an anathema to a panel's ability to make electricity. At least you will be wiring them in parallel and that will greatly decrease problems with shading.

 

[BradKW]

I am strongly leaning toward the same choice in batteries...they certainly eat up some space though. One solution that caught my attention was a van that split the bank, putting 2 batteries behind each wheel well. It certainly was convenient with his layout. There are two potential problems with this design, and I have been meaning to make a post about it because I don't know the answers:
1) Batteries are supposed to be as close to solar controller as possible...not sure if using over-sized wire can properly mitigate this.

2) Batteries should be connected with equal length cables to avoid unequal draw...not sure how this works if you separate them by a few feet.

 

[Almost There]

I'm still fighting my way through my electrical system so I have no answers for you.

However, if you're already thinking of the T105's take an extra look at the T105REs....5 year warranty as compared to 18 months and rated for IIRC 1600 cycles as compared to 1200.

I bought mine from SolarBiz, picked them up at a battery warehouse and paid the same price overall as the local dealers wanted for the T105s when I added in core charge that I would have had to pay locally because I didn't have old batteries to turn in.

 

[SternWake]

To power a 2000 watt inverter at max load, you will need 4 T-105's.


Get some battery box ideas from here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=gol...X&ved=0ahUKEwinreS0j87KAhVC42MKHVgFC8wQsAQIQw

Low profile mushroom vents stand least chance of shading the tightly packed solar, except at super low angles where output is not impressive anyway. Attach powerful 120 or perhaps 140 mm  Adjustable speed computer fans.  Depends on inner diameter of following product. 

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|6880|2290139|2290143&id=1647393

You 'could' have two banks of T 105s, and two manual battery switches, 1/2/both/off

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...d=1454040295&sr=8-3&keywords=blue+seas+switch

One switch to switch all Solar/ Converter/Alternator charging sources to either bank of 6v GC t105
One switch to switch all Loads   to either bank of 6v.
Turn Load switch to BOTH, when running microwave or other large loads or when driving.

Either switch in BOTH, negates the position of the other 1/2/both/off switch.

A simple ON/OFF switch for large gauge Red cable from HD Alternator(+) Stud to Solar 1/2/both/off Switch Common Stud. 
Turn on when driving, Off whenever parked. There are other products which can do this automatically. 

Frame can be used for ground Path.  Ideal would be fat copper black cable right to Alternator mounting bolt, or alternator (-) stud, if it exists.
If easier to run to engine battery, then run additional ground from engine battery to alternator (-) mounting bolt or stud.

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst..._UL160_SR154,160_&refRID=0RMNVN5W79M7HARAVAQE




One can put things where one wants, as long as one is willing to pay a lot  more for thicker copper required for longer lengths.  A set of GC's on either side in back can certainly work, especially if Manual switches linked above are equidistant, circuit wise, from either set of GC's.  That way They'll charge and discharge evenly if Solar/ALT/Converter and/or LOAD switches are set to BOTH.  BUt you need to run 1 awg or thicker wire to the switches from battery banks, if located on either side of the Van.

Get a 60 amp converter/plug in charging source, or larger for when you can plug into grid.  Hook(+) output to Solar Switch Common Stud, same stud as which comes from the Manual Alternator ON/Off switch.

The two bank system allows one to top charge / equalize one set of batteries via solar, run everything else off the other bank, or one can turn the switch to BOTH and have one large bank.
 
 This would make the single trimetric a bit harder to understand/set/program, and two trimetrics complicate the grounds.



  No doubt 4 t105s all together is easier and less expensive to put together, but it is a lot of weight all in one spot.

The above is just one way it could be done.

I guess I am a bit of a Blue seas Switch Junkee, I use three myself. 

One to switch all original Dodge wiring to either of 2 batteries, One Switch for all house loads, One for The solar and  40 amp Powersupply/charger.  I always kept one battery full and cycled the other and my battery monitor would remain accurate.  Now I only have one battery and all my switchs are set to 2.

Trojan 105s want 14.8v absorption for a period of time each recharge cycle, so a plug in charging sourcewill need to be able to make at least 60 amps  and go upto 14.8v for 4 T-105s.

Getting a lot of juice into depleted batteries to get them upto 80% as fast as possible from the alternator with thick copper will shorten life of alternator to some degree.  Those with Expensive alternators requiring hours of labor charges to replace,  can lessen stress on alternator by using 6 or 8awg cable instead of the 2 awg or thicker I usually have in mind. and charging amps will be attenuated to a large degree.

 Idling can be really hard on some alternators, especially if they are capable of 50% or more of their total output at idle speed when hot.  Their internal fan is not spinning fast enough to dissipate the heat it generates at idle.  Maybe.  Very platform specific. 
 
One could make a cold air intake blowing on the thickly cabled alternator, if one were a large power user who has not seen sun, a generator, or the grid in a long time, does not want to move/drive,  and the batteries are crying for some juice.

I go for as much alternator juice as I can get every time I drive, and to heck with its longevity.  Last one lasted many years.

 

[BradKW]

One switch to switch all Loads   to either bank of 6v.
Turn Load switch to BOTH, when running microwave or other large loads or when driving.  

I just want to be clear what the purpose of creating two separate, switchable banks is. Is it only because the banks are geographically separate from each other?
 

Either switch in BOTH, negates the position of the other 1/2/both/off switch.

ehhh...does not compute. I may require cartoon animations and a catchy song here...

Frame can be used for ground Path.  Ideal would be fat copper black cable right to Alternator mounting bolt, or alternator (-) stud, if it exists.
If easier to run to engine battery, then run additional ground from engine battery to alternator (-) mounting bolt or stud.

So my understanding at this point is that 12v vehicle systems do not require grounds, the only ground being from battery bank (-)neg post to frame. Do I understand this to mean that if I add vehicle battery into the charging circuit, I should run an additional ground?

TIA !

 

[SternWake]

[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Is it only because the banks are geographically separate from each other? [/font]

Mostly, but there are advantages in being able to charge one bank and discharge the other such as when you need 2 more hours at absorption voltage but the sun is dropping fast, and you want to run some loads.  Getting a true 100% charge is important.  recharge to 98% only and the batteyr will age faster, shrink faster


If one does have two 1/2/both/off switches, one for all loads to either bank, one for all charging sources to both banks, then putting Either switch to both, parallels both battery banks, negating the position of the other switch, unless set to off.

One can get away not grounding their separate house battery system to the Chassis, IF one is not choosing to utilize the alternator to recharge.

If one wants the capability to use the alternator to recharge their house battery bank, then the bank must be  grounded, either to the frame, or better, with thick copper cable right to alternator(-) or to alternator mounting bolt.

Frame grounds are known to become issues in the long term, especially if half assed. Mating Surfaces should be pristine and polished shiny, bolt should be torqued over the ring terminal properly, and covered with grease after installation.

Fat copper back to alternator(-) is a better ground path, but thick copper 16' long is expensive, and heavy and way less simple than drilling a hole in the frame nearest house battery bank(s).

It might be easier to hook house battery ground cable to engine battery(-).  If doing this then the original engine ground now has to pass a lot more current, and might not be upto the task, so an additional cable from battery (-) to alternator mounting bracket will help those charging  amps flow easier.

Same with the (+).  If one takes power for recharging house batteries from engine battery, then the circuit is usually longer, and the current flow needs to go through the original alternator charging circuit, which was never designed to have a set of deep cycle batteries attach to the end of the circuit.

Taking power from the alternator shortens the  charge path, eliminates the bottle neck of too thin original alternator charge wiring, and also allow the voltage regulator to see that a lot more field current is required to keep the voltage up near the desired range.  As such it might allow the vehicle to seek and hold mid 14's for longer, which speeds battery recharging, especially when below 80% charged.

The 2 bank of house battery system is possible, and has some advantages, but it is upto the user whether the extra cost and complication is worth it.  balancing the cable thicknesses/lengths so both geographically separate banks work and recharge together, just as hard, will be a challenge

Separate banks of batteries really complicate the use/  and proper wiring of a true battery monitor like the trimetric.

Probably best for a newb not to try for the more complicated version, and manual switches, well one must make sure to not remove ALL loads from an alternator when the engine is running.  Switching to off with engine running, in some instances, can blow the diodes in the alternator.  In using the switches to switch sources,or loads, to either bank, this is not an issue as the engine battery is not switchable, and an alternator load dump scenario cannot occur.

So the use of manual switches are not for the absent minded or where kids might enjoy the thing with the dial and big red wires, a little bit too much.

Again it is just one possible way to do things, not the best, and I don't mean to make it seem this way because I employ Manual switches and shun automatic control.

I do like the long thick studs on the back of these Blue seas Switches.  One can stack many ring terminals on them.  In many ways it simplifies wiring with a very solid electrical and mechanical connection, which can also be disassembled without cutting, or recrimping.

 

[Gone Galavanting]

I'm still fighting my way through my electrical system so I have no answers for you.

However, if you're already thinking of the T105's take an extra look at the T105REs....5 year warranty as compared to 18 months and rated for IIRC 1600 cycles as compared to 1200.

I bought mine from SolarBiz, picked them up at a battery warehouse and paid the same price overall as the local dealers wanted for the T105s when I added in core charge that I would have had to pay locally because I didn't have old batteries to turn in.

I didn't even know about the T105-RE. Was planning on purchasing T105s from Ballard Golf Cars and Power Sports. They have T105s for $100/each PLUS $30 core charge ($520 total). Through Solar Biz I can get T105re for $158 each, no core charge, $30 local delivery charge, ($662 total).

So now I have another decision to make. As this is my first solar system (maybe someday I'll own a galaxy!) I am concerned that I will make a new person's mistakes and destroy my first battery bank fast. I have tried to get the "tools" I need to keep that from happening.... but freely admit to ignorance/naivety/lack of experience.. each of which I am sure is an enemy to long battery life.

 

[Gone Galavanting]

Thank you all for considering my future setup and for your input, I REALLY appreciate it. Sorry to take so long to reply... the big move (out of apartment) is underway!

 

[akrvbob]

For installation there is AM Solar in Oregon but I don't know if they will install it if you didn't get it from them it would be worth finding out since they have a great reputation. http://www.amsolar.com/

Normally on your first system I think you are better off getting cheap batteries and planning to kill them. But in your case you're starting off with such a good system that you should be okay. If you're careful to moniter the Trimetric and treat your batteries really well, they'll be fine.

The longer warranty on the REs may be worth the extra money to you. Trojan claims they are more tolerant of abuse and the fact they are backing it up with a longer warranty implies it's true or they believe it to be true.
Bob

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Before you buy either model Trojan battery, talk to Trojan about what you are planning on doing, and be sure you understand the fine print on their warranties.

Batteries designed for Golf Carts can handle the shaking and vibration vehicles subject them to.

Batteries designed for residential systems may not be as rugged internally and may NOT handle the shaking and vibration, and may fail sooner.

More importantly, Trojan may refuse to honor the warranty on them if they deem you used of them in an application they weren't designed for.

I'm not saying this IS the case, I'm just saying check it out before you spend your money.

Regards
John

 

[SternWake]

I have my Doubts there is ANY difference in internal construction at all between a t-105 and a t-105RE, but for the green sticker and the extra warranty.
 I am just too suspicious of current marketing strategy to believe any of it.

I Emailed with trojan and they would not answer my specific questions regarding the wide range of acceptable absorption voltages they list for the -RE line, vs the 14.8v of the non -RE line.  When I pressed the the guy, he  just responded with a telephone number, obviously not wanting to put anything in writing.  I never called.

The guy wrote that there was No difference in the t-1275 and J150 battery but for the casing.  Their Data sheets had the J150 weighing 2 more Lbs, which to me would indicate thicker plates, but the guy insisted they were the same exact battery internally despite their data sheets being different

I have No proof, only a suspicion, that the RE line is just marketing, and one is actually just paying more for the longer warranty.

Many, not all, starting batteries sold in Ap stores have the platinum and gold / silver lines and the only difference on these is the length of the warranty and the sticker.

I think only an insider in Trojan would know for sure, or if somebody dissected both lines of batteries and had the ability to accurately measure plate thickness and could put the plate paste under a microscope and perform other tests.   
 The rest of us guess.

The actual plate pastes they smear on the grids are closely guarded secrets.  Trojan and USbattery really go to extremes to capture the golf cart battery market share

My Guess is just simple marketing as the Whole Green/renewables market is ripe for the cash grab.  Look at all the Tv commercials wanting to put solar on your home for XX dollars.  My friend got a quote for 45K dollars, and when we priced out all the materials for the same total wattage,  added 20%, and quadrupled the estimated  labor for installation costs, came in a 1/4 that quoted price.  The renewables market is ripe for profit. Deep cycle battery companies would be fools to not try and grab some of it.

A battery truly designed for solar would be designed for resistance to  partial state of charge cycling, and have a wide range of absorption voltages, and could tolerate very low charging currents in the 1 to 3% range rather than trojan's 'recommended' 10-13%.


Concorde makes, in my opinion, the Best deep cycle AGM batteries and has a very well written owner's manual for their care.

Here is the one written for their Lifeline brand batteries:

http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf

Here is one for their SUNExtender line intended for the renewables market:
http://www.sunxtender.com/pdfs/Sun_Xtender_Battery_Technical_Manual.pdf

The only difference is the header.
Their charging recommendations are exactly the same.  When deeply cycled they stress the importance of achieving a minimum 20% charge rate.

Achieving a 20% charge rate via solar is not practical. It would be close to 4 solar watts for every 1Ah of capacity.

Marketing = proudly deceiving the possible consumer in the name of maximum profit, in my opinion.

I would need proof before spending 60% more for a battery, that it is actually designed for a specific application.

At least Condorde's Lifeline and Sunextender lines are the same price.

Is the 60% more $$ worth it for the warranty?

Not to me, not when there are a thousand loopholes for warranty denial.

 

[cortttt]

Hi Folks,
  New here, will be full time van dweller by mid February. Have a 2007 Ford Extended Cargo Van.  So the problem is.. I have a few short circuits hanging out in my brain when it comes to anything electrical.
   I have spent a huge amount of time reading, decided what I wanted, read some more, changed my mind, rinse, repeat et cetera. Initially I had planned on something simply and low key, maybe 100 watts. But then I decided I wanted to be a power hog and as I am fortunate enough to have the funds to do it right now, I was going to get the best system I could and hope it lasts for a very long time.  FINALLY made some purchases, will need to have an install done. Most of my questions have been asked/answered on here regarding other setups (I have done a LOT of reading), but every setup seems to be unique, so I'm hoping for input specifically towards mine so I don't miss anything.

Went with a Renogy 400 watt kit (in price shopping, there are many prices for these from Renogy depending on where you look: Renogy/Amazon/Ebay) The folks at Renogy told me that they would match Amazon or Ebay, but when I got my final quote from them I found that I could pick up one of their kits on Amazon and order the controller I wanted separately and end up with a better price then if I just went directly through Renogy.

Have a Morningstar Prostar Controller PS-30M

Samlex PST 2000-12 Pure sine inverter

Trimetric 2030 Battery Monitor

4 Trojan T105's

So, here come the questions:
Does anyone see any major problems with this setup?
1)Are 4 batteries (vs 2) overkill?

2)What kind of battery box (s) are being used for the T105's? And a good source for those?

3)I'd like to fit two vents on the roof also, going to be a tight squeeze spacewise. Ideally, I'd like to go with cheap vents with a cover, computer fan..but... I'm concerned about the covers shading the panels and would like to minimize that. Suggestions?

4)Any recommends for a great installer who does good work@a fair price. I'm currently in Eastern Washington, will be spending some time in Portland, OR, area, then SE Idaho, Then hopefully on to AZ.  So not really tied to a specific area if someone knows where I can find an uber installer.

5) Also, anyone with "I wish I would have known BEFORE" kind of advice, if it pertains to my system, please toss it my way. I want to make as few as mistakes with this as possible.

6) Van layout... cringe!! I have cabinets that I had hoped to have on the passenger side in the rear, but, the best place that I'm seeing for the batteries is over the passenger side rear axle. My thinking is that if they are on the driver's side it will be too much weight, (myself, fuel tank). I also don't like the idea of sleeping on top of them, although it's probably okay. They will be vented wherever they end up at, but does anyone have any clever ideas for where they should end up at?

Thanks All, GG

PS, I still have to get some of the wiring, battery cables, fuses etc.

You power hog you!

I was going to go with 200 watts. Now I'm curious what you're going to use all that power for?

 

[29chico]

Hi Folks,
  New here, will be full time van dweller by mid February. Have a 2007 Ford Extended Cargo Van.  So the problem is.. I have a few short circuits hanging out in my brain when it comes to anything electrical.
   I have spent a huge amount of time reading, decided what I wanted, read some more, changed my mind, rinse, repeat et cetera. Initially I had planned on something simply and low key, maybe 100 watts. But then I decided I wanted to be a power hog and as I am fortunate enough to have the funds to do it right now, I was going to get the best system I could and hope it lasts for a very long time.  FINALLY made some purchases, will need to have an install done. Most of my questions have been asked/answered on here regarding other setups (I have done a LOT of reading), but every setup seems to be unique, so I'm hoping for input specifically towards mine so I don't miss anything.

Went with a Renogy 400 watt kit (in price shopping, there are many prices for these from Renogy depending on where you look: Renogy/Amazon/Ebay) The folks at Renogy told me that they would match Amazon or Ebay, but when I got my final quote from them I found that I could pick up one of their kits on Amazon and order the controller I wanted separately and end up with a better price then if I just went directly through Renogy.

Have a Morningstar Prostar Controller PS-30M

Samlex PST 2000-12 Pure sine inverter

Trimetric 2030 Battery Monitor

4 Trojan T105's

So, here come the questions:
Does anyone see any major problems with this setup?
1)Are 4 batteries (vs 2) overkill?

2)What kind of battery box (s) are being used for the T105's? And a good source for those?

3)I'd like to fit two vents on the roof also, going to be a tight squeeze spacewise. Ideally, I'd like to go with cheap vents with a cover, computer fan..but... I'm concerned about the covers shading the panels and would like to minimize that. Suggestions?

4)Any recommends for a great installer who does good work@a fair price. I'm currently in Eastern Washington, will be spending some time in Portland, OR, area, then SE Idaho, Then hopefully on to AZ.  So not really tied to a specific area if someone knows where I can find an uber installer.

5) Also, anyone with "I wish I would have known BEFORE" kind of advice, if it pertains to my system, please toss it my way. I want to make as few as mistakes with this as possible.

6) Van layout... cringe!! I have cabinets that I had hoped to have on the passenger side in the rear, but, the best place that I'm seeing for the batteries is over the passenger side rear axle. My thinking is that if they are on the driver's side it will be too much weight, (myself, fuel tank). I also don't like the idea of sleeping on top of them, although it's probably okay. They will be vented wherever they end up at, but does anyone have any clever ideas for where they should end up at?

Thanks All, GG

PS, I still have to get some of the wiring, battery cables, fuses etc.

The parts that you have selected should work out very well.  The only concern that I have is that the temp compensation in that charge controller is for ambient temp at the controller.  Battery temp will vary at a much slower pace than ambient temp due to the thermal mass of the battery.  So a good portion of the time the temp comp will not be accurate.  

You can add a remote temp probe to that controller.  However, it will require soldering two wires to the printed circuit board of the controller.

 

[Canine]

You can add a remote temp probe to that controller.  However, it will require soldering two wires to the printed circuit board of the controller.

Gah! I just plugged mine in.

 

[29chico]

Gah! I just plugged mine in.

I'm not sure what you mean?  Do you have the same charge controller as the OP?

 

[Canine]

No, I have a different one that is easier to use by plugging in. I didn't mean to infer I had the same one. I'm surprised some controllers have that feature, but that it takes soldering.

 

[MikeRuth]

Just an FYI, Morningstar only makes one RTS, It has a ring type terminal for attaching to one of the battery post and 18 gauge wires.
On the pro star indeed you need to solder these wires to the board. On a TS-45 for example they have terminal connections making it much easier and no soldering.

Personally I do like having the RTS on my system, a TS-45 PWM.