Lets talk about who "deserves" help

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Optimistic Paranoid said:
If you genuinely believe that paying taxes is "voluntary", by all means stop doing it for a awhile and let us all know how that works out for you.

No way. I get amazing benefits for the taxes I pay. I choose to stay here and pay my taxes as does everyone else who is in this country paying taxes.

I do have a friend, however, who has taken this route. He has renounced his US citizenship and is currently stateless and living in S. America so I know it can be done. You don't have to go to that extreme though. You can earn less than the standard deduction and live in a state without sales tax. If you own no property, you don't even have to pay that tax. Again, I prefer to actually have money and to earn money here in the USA and I certainly feel it is a valid choice. Just pointing out that there are options.
 
slynne said:
I do have a friend, however, who has taken this route. He has renounced his US citizenship and is currently stateless and living in S. America so I know it can be done.

Now you've got me curious.  This South American country legally allows him to live there full time?  Allows him to work there?  And doesn't expect him to pay any taxes to THEM?  Are you saying he isn't breaking any of their laws by doing this?

As for the rest of your post, sure.  If you are willing to give up the freedom to live wherever you want, the freedom to own property, and are willing to voluntarily live below the poverty level, you can avoid being coerced into paying taxes.
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
Now you've got me curious.  This South American country legally allows him to live there full time?  Allows him to work there?  And doesn't expect him to pay any taxes to THEM?  Are you saying he isn't breaking any of their laws by doing this?

As for the rest of your post, sure.  If you are willing to give up the freedom to live wherever you want, the freedom to own property, and are willing to voluntarily live below the poverty level, you can avoid being coerced into paying taxes.

The S. American country is Paraguay and they not only legally allow him to live there full time, they have given him some kind of special Passport they offer to stateless people so he can travel. He owns his own internet business and they allow him to run that. I don't know if he pays taxes there as I am not familiar with their tax structure but I assume that he has chosen to pay taxes there if he does. Tax avoidance wasn't his issue, he didn't want to pay taxes to the USA because he feels that doing so makes him complicit in the evils of our country.I am obviously not an expert on the Paraguayan legal system but I get the impression from him that he is on the up and up.
 
slynne said:
No way. I get amazing benefits for the taxes I pay.

And you've just put your finger on the heart of the matter.  I am perfectly willing to pay taxes to pay for the benefits I receive.  I do occasionally question whether some of those benefits could be done cheaper by someone other than the government, but I recognize that there are some things - like national defense - that only the government can do.

I just don't accept the theory that supporting someone else - permanently - is a benefit to me.

There was a 19th century British politician who observed that "Democracy works fine - until the masses discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses".

I believe that that's what has happened to this country.  Back in 2012, Republican Presidential Candidate Romney was criticized for pointing out that over 40% of adults in this country payed no federal income tax.

What happens to this country, what happens to democracy, when that figure goes above 50%?  When a majority can vote greater benefits to themselves at whim, benefits that someone else has to pay for?

But I fear that we have crossed the line into politics, where Bob has requested that we do not go.
 
IanC said:
My neighbors where I lived in Mass could be called the classic case of people using every system. It was the mother and father, the old dad (who lived in the basement), a son with brain damage, 3 teenage daughter (two with babies).  I got along well with them, but often wondered about all the checks that were coming into that house.  When the old man died and the girls left home, the income dried up and Alvin and his wife were in a tent by the river.  Of course, there as a lot of addiction in the house too.

But, in thinking about it, I realized that these were people with very low I.Q. We tend to judge people on their intelligence as though it is something they did themselves - an achievement, and that recognizing low I.Q is a put down.  The FACT is that people with an I.Q. of 75 or below are eligible for a variety of services, but what about those with 80, 90, 100 who are trying to navigate a world that was designed by people of high intelligence.  What does someone do who has difficulty even setting an alarm clock to get up in the morning?  What do they do when so much, now days require computer literacy? I don't think of myself as stupid, but my mind literally goes blank when reading a legalese form or intricate instructions - something in my brain just isn't there. I don't even try and read an electric bill (when I had one) - I just pay the bottom line. So, what do those other folks do?

There was a time when a guy who wasn't a brainiac, could get a job at the plant, pick up his pay envelope on Friday, go, in person to pay his various bills and provide for his family.  There wasn't a 100 page employee handbook or a stack of HR forms to fill out, or a mailbox full of paperwork to understand.  Putting aside that there are few of those 'plant' jobs anymore anyway, is there a point where life becomes so complicated for some people that they just give up?

Back on the homeless front. Do the "buddy, get a job" people believe that there are employers lining up to hire toothless old men with a lifetime of alcohol under their belts?  When fresh faced college grads can't get jobs, do they think those guys have a chance? And, what are the prospects for someone released from prison with a felony record, just the clothes on their back and not a dime to their name?  How does one start a life over from complete scratch?

When I was in AA, I heard hundreds and hundreds of stories of the struggles people had to pick themselves up from the depths they had fallen. It is a lot harder task than for those who came from good homes with parents interested in education, finished college and followed the prescribed path to a secure life.  Personally, I have been on my own since I left home the week after my 17th birthday. Fortunately I have never had to ask for government or family assistance, but my life has been one of stumbling around, trying to find a path (God, if I were to write out a list of the things I've done I wouldn't believe it myself.), many times been a hairs breath from homelessness.  It was help that came from very kind people along the way that kept me off the streets.
You said many truths so thank you.  I get more kindness online than people in person in Los Angeles.  I need to leave and am trying to find a way...cat is old and sick,etc...
 
Optimistic Paranoid said:
And you've just put your finger on the heart of the matter.  I am perfectly willing to pay taxes to pay for the benefits I receive.  I do occasionally question whether some of those benefits could be done cheaper by someone other than the government, but I recognize that there are some things - like national defense - that only the government can do.

I just don't accept the theory that supporting someone else - permanently - is a benefit to me.

There was a 19th century British politician who observed that "Democracy works fine - until the masses discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses".

I believe that that's what has happened to this country.  Back in 2012, Republican Presidential Candidate Romney was criticized for pointing out that over 40% of adults in this country payed no federal income tax.

What happens to this country, what happens to democracy, when that figure goes above 50%?  When a majority can vote greater benefits to themselves at whim, benefits  that someone else has to pay for?

But I fear that we have crossed the line into politics, where Bob has requested that we do not go.

I am not going to argue with you about your politics (unless you want to in PM). I will just say that one of the aspects about democracy is that no one ever gets all that they want but the process where you advocate for your vision while I advocate for mine is something I really value. I think the differences in philosophy and points of view and indeed the whole process where no one has any chance of getting what they want without thinking about it long and hard and forming good arguments is something which has ultimately made our country stronger. There is no shortage of bad ideas on either side but we actually do have a process which works most of the time.
 
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