Lets talk about who "deserves" help

[Every Road Leads Home]

I think everyone should have their basic needs met. I was told once long ago to think of the entire country as a tribe, and just like in days of long ago, if someone in a tribe needs help, the others would help them. Well, now the US is one giant tribe and we owe it to our other tribesmen/women to help them if needed. Sure there are going to be people that abuse that good will, but is it right to take it away from the people not abusing it because of the other's that do? I don't think it is.

And the federal budget that goes towards social services is so so small. People get hung up on the other's getting handouts, literally thinking they work hard and all their tax money goes to these "free loaders" when in reality the smallest little percentage of their paycheck goes towards them. And if there were no social safety nets our streets would be filled with a lot more pan handlers, a lot more petty theft to meet their basic needs, etc. This then snowball and compounds further....more cops needed to stop it, more DPW workers to clean up the messes they leave behind, more people in the ER to get their basic health care, all of which would raise your taxes anyways..... So a lot of that money isn't actually wasted, it's directly helping you and you don't even always realize it.

 

[Queen]

ERLH - spot on.

I have this conversation often with my brother, he is in the "I worked for it, you should too" camp. I ask him to try and stop looking "down" looking at people with almost nothing who get a little extra from food stamps or welfare... instead, if you want to be angry about the wasted money, look up. Up at the corporations who get endless freebies, banks who get millions and still give out bonuses to their people, rampant corruption and endless war. The powers that be are experts in getting us to look down, so we ignore what they're doing.

 

[Gunny]

Yes Gary, and every month or so I get a newsletter with stories of kids they helped or are helping. My little 19 dollar a month donation doesn't cover diddly but I did give them my bit of land in Montana that I had been trying to sell. Someone bought it from them which is a good thing.

Full disclosure, I also donate to the DAV and Chive Charities.

I'm not sure my donations make me " Proud" or not, I am selective and I like to see where the money I do give goes.

Rob

 

[ArtW]

I've been on welfare, i appreciate the safety net, but i also understand that if all of what western society considers a person's 'basic needs' are met, that person has less incentive to climb back out of that net, just like wild animals who are hand fed forage less
In a tribe, those who need a hand get it, but are expected to pull as much weight as they can, in our larger society, it's more a handout than a reciprocal thing
look at how many recipients disappear when a requirement is attached to the help, such as seeking job retraining or doing community service

I have wondered how effective 'basic housing' might be, if it could be pushed through, with individuals given a van size room instead of a whole apartment

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

I've been on welfare, i appreciate the safety net, but i also understand that if all of what western society considers a person's 'basic needs' are met, that person has less incentive to climb back out of that net, just like wild animals who are hand fed forage less
In a tribe, those who need a hand get it, but are expected to pull as much weight as they can, in our larger society, it's more a handout than a reciprocal thing
look at how many recipients disappear when a requirement is attached to the help, such as seeking job retraining or doing community service

But again, so everyone gets punished for the actions of a few?  A single mother and her child fleeing an abusive relationship get no help and are to fend on the streets for themselves because some low life 200 miles away decided to play the system?  No system is perfect, they'll all have some money wasted, some people abusing it, etc.  But there would be a much larger problem to deal with without it.  And if it all ended tomorrow the average person's paycheck would only go up a few dollars a week.

 

[Queen]

I've been on welfare, i appreciate the safety net, but i also understand that if all of what western society considers a person's 'basic needs' are met, that person has less incentive to climb back out of that net, just like wild animals who are hand fed forage less
In a tribe, those who need a hand get it, but are expected to pull as much weight as they can, in our larger society, it's more a handout than a reciprocal thing
look at how many recipients disappear when a requirement is attached to the help, such as seeking job retraining or doing community service

Sure there are "takers' out there, but there are so so many people who cannot meet those requirements.  I used to be a welfare case worker and the number of people who were in desperate situations, who needed the most help, were often the people I wasn't allowed to help because they couldn't meet the arbitrary requirements.


Instead of us all looking at it this way, what if everyone had their basic needs met, and once those were met they had an opportunity to move beyond being the helpee to being a helper through engaging and fulfilling work?  That strikes me as the crux of the issue, so much of what people have to do to make a living completely denies them the opportunity to have a life.  Work hard until you die seems like a poor incentive for anyone, unless you buy into the idea that you get to buy stuff from all this work, so that makes it worth it.

 

[Florida boondocker]

I am 57 years old, moved out when i was 16 and never got food stamps, unemployment or help from anyone

worked hard with a 9th grade education build up a small business with 6 employees 

i could easily say if i did it so can you

But i have been blessed, sure threw hard work but if someone needs help i try to help

if i give the "bum" at the red light $5 and he buys beer so what, if that $5 gives him a little peace great
  that $5 wasn't going to change my life a bit

just a few weeks ago a lady was sitting on the side of the road with a flat and i stopped to see if i could help 
she had no spare & no money so i bought her a tire and sent her on her way, she way very thankful

i didn't run a credit check on her, ask her why she didn't have a spare or money ... just helped her

lucky & blessed i could afford to help

my outlook is your life choices are your .... some make good one's some don't
 i am not on earth to judge 

just here living my own life ....

 

[Queen]

Beautifully said, Florida Boondocker.

 

[waldenbound]

I see the "tribe" concept as, "I help you, but if I am in need of help down the road, I'd hope you would be there for me."
Classic example, the Amish, who take care of their own community. If a farmer's barn burns down, the whole community goes out and raises another one, and the women all pitch in with food to help. Then if someone was in the hospital and has a bill to pay, the community all pitches in.
Now, as far as the judgement goes, I know I should look at it as I'm helping someone, that's it. If someone asks for money to buy a drone, well, I might be taken aback, but if they want a drone ok. Then, if my radiator is leaking, I would hope their would be others who would help me get another one.

 

[SoulRaven]

I'm in 100% agreement with "ArtW". I live in a city with a poverty rate of 25%, have lived in a community where 400 families had no running water in the house, have lived among people who made plenty of money but didn't know how to spend it wisely, etc.

There should be no expectations on either side. Choice.

 

[slynne]

I am not sure that it is true that welfare is all that large of a disincentive to work. Basic needs are pretty basic. Prison provides for people's basic needs but few would say that there is no incentive to get out of that situation. I think there probably are ways to ensure that everyone can get their needs met while maintaining an expectation that everyone do their best in terms of supporting themselves. One way is to have generous disability programs combined with work programs run by the government. Some cities have had success with providing employment when they do it by taking all comers and paying them in cash at the end of the day (with taxes withheld). The advantage to this is that everyone who is able works and no one denies that such people deserve the pay since anyone who wants to can do the labor.

Another way is to do something like have a universal basic income. Everyone gets a check for some amount of money that can provide for their basic needs and there are no strings attached and thus no disincentive to work more for more money. Those who can’t or won’t get stuck with just enough to cover their basic needs but can get creative about how they spend the money. The main advantage to this is that no one falls through the cracks. It is also much more efficient in that all the resources which go into determining if someone is eligible for Social Security Disability could be put to better use. I hate to say it but we are already heading towards a day when labor just isn’t as necessary and we will have a situation where able bodied people can’t find jobs and don’t have access to the capital required to start their own businesses. We will have large segments of our population unable to or barely able to support themselves and that is going to have huge social costs for everyone, even people like me who are closer to the top than we are to bottom.

 

[ArtW]

ERLH, I myself was far less inclined to get off my duff and seek employment when on welfare, and as my boss will tell you, I'm normally an independent cuss
A safety net is fine, temporarily, not generationally
That's why I mentioned how when work or work retraining is attached, a fair percentage of the claims dry up

Safety net spending is 10% of the federal budget, Social security 24% medicare, CHIP, and marketplace subsidies 25%, military spending 16%

Bennies for veterans and federal retirees 8%, transportation infrastructure 2%, education 3%, science and medical research 2%

Playing the woman card, nice, let's make Art a heartless woman hater, emotional argument at it's best.

 

[Queen]

Nevermind.

 

[mayble]

Many people say that respect isn't given, but must be earned.  I completely disagree with that notion - I believe EVERYONE deserves respect until proven otherwise.

I feel the same about help.  Anyone who asks me for help will get whatever I can spare, and sometimes more.  If I feel a particular individual is taking advantage of me, I'll stop giving to that individual.  I won't stop giving to all panhandlers because of the dishonest ones.

I give because it makes ME feel good.  Maybe some people just don't have the generosity gene.

 

[Gunny]

As someone who has received help from forum members (thanks JiminDenver and Pat) without their expectation of payment, I do consider the members a tribe of sorts.

Could I have made it without their help? Yes, but with their help life was so much easier and I got to meet two exceptional people and 3 good dogs. I actually hated to leave, visiting with them was like old home week.

I would help anyone that I knew from the forum as best I could, the physical part maybe not so much. Not for not wanting to, it's not able to.

My phone number is always available for a member in need.

Rob

 

[Queen]

... Maybe some people just don't have the generosity gene.

I think everyone has it in them, but too many people get beaten down by this awful system we live in.  Over time they buy into it and start being just as mean and nasty as the system they hate.  Instead of hoping everyone can catch a break and live a free healthy happy life, they start marking lines and creating circles of inclusion and exclusion, who may have and who may not.  And the system perpetuates.

 

[Gunny]

Generosity... I gave my neighbors food, "Loaned" them money, gave them rides and when they asked for 20 dollars and I had no cash on me and wasn't going to find an ATM at 10pm they haven't said a word to me since. My generosity gene dried up.

Rob

 

[Queen]

Generosity... I gave my neighbors food, "Loaned" them money, gave them rides and when they asked for 20 dollars and I had no cash on me and wasn't going to find an ATM at 10pm they haven't said a word to me since. My generosity gene dried up.

Rob

I doubt that, you're a very generous person, Rob.  I think you'll just get more selective for a time.

 

[Svenn]

 Basic needs are pretty basic. 

"Basic" has become a relative term.  Everyone in the US gets free food and free state-of-the-art healthcare, and free everything if you're a minor, which is a massive leap from where humanity was at.  Look at Sudan or other places where people still starve in public.  Many Sudanese would think that being homeless in America is a luxurious life.  We should always remember the relativity of the human condition.  

 we are already heading towards a day when labor just isn’t as necessary and we will have a situation where able bodied people can’t find jobs 

It's true, people forget that the whole point of technology is to reduce labor, yet everyone insists that people have jobs.  Our technology has developed faster than the antiquated governmental structure behind it.  There is massive physical wealth in the Western world, such that everyone can get well above their "basic" needs met.  Yet the governmental system isn't distributing it equally:  Individuals who saved their whole life are losing their entire savings to paying for end of life healthcare, wiping out inheritances, while the persons who saved nothing get it all for free.  Addicts cyclically go to hospitals which basically resuscitate them continue their addictions, all at public expense.  All of this goes on while the vast majority of wealth is held by a tiny portion of the population.  Moralism needs to go, figuring out public services should be based on objective, empirical analysis.

 

[Van Lady]

I found the following article eye opening..... maybe it will interest some of you too.

New Report Proves Maine's Welfare Reforms Are Working - Forbes

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapo...rt-proves-maines-welfare-reforms-are-working/