Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) Forum on Van Dwellers

[Pikachu711]

I was doing some research on van dwelling and discovered a forum for law enforcement officers (LEO's). The subject of this Officer thread is the following:<br /><br />"Sleeping/Living in our vehicle (van, car, etc). Will it get someone arrested?"<br /><br />I'm not going to kid&nbsp;you. I found a few of the comments I read somewhat offensive. But I'm going to take them in stride. Despite&nbsp;the&nbsp;negative comments I read I just&nbsp;looked at them&nbsp;as comments made by LEO's. I'll let you read them for yourself.<br /><br />Again, please&nbsp;read these comments with an open mind. Here's the link:<br /><br /><a href="http://forums.officer.com/t166453/">http://forums.officer.com/t166453/</a><br /><br />The only reason I posted this link was to give you some thoughts of LEO's we may encounter in our travels.&nbsp;<br /><br />

 

[rvwandering]

&nbsp;Interesting seeing this issue from the LEO's view point. They seemed reasonable to me. We've never had a problem with the police either when parking in store lots or the street while we're visiting people. Everybody has to do their job.<img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle">

 

[SoulRaven]

The LEO's are just doing the job the city, county, and state governments tell them to do... So it is not the cop's, the the elected officials to blame for laws that are not liked...

 

[Pikachu711]

&nbsp;Interesting seeing this issue from the LEO's view point. They seemed reasonable to me. We've never had a problem with the police either when parking in store lots or the street while we're visiting people. Everybody has to do their job.<img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" alt="" align="absMiddle" border="0" />

<br /><br />The vast majority of the comments were understandable. But I found the comments that characterized "van dwellers" as less than honest somewhat disconcerning.<br /><br />I know that LEO's have a very difficult job to do. I couldn't do their job. But it was interesting reading the comments&nbsp;all the same. LEO's have to be careful in the way they interact with the general public.

 

[Simran]

We, here @ cheaprvliving.com, think outside the box.<br /><br />By-and-large, law enforcement struggles, mentally, with anyone that thinks outside the box.<br /><br />To put it in perspective consider this. People that go into law enforcement are people that function better within a set of parameters or boundaries; not all of them but most of them. They feel comforted by the rules and laws set down by mainstream society and feel comfortable enforcing those rules &amp; laws. <br />Many of them just cannot get their head around anyone voluntarily living in a van on purpose.<br /><br />Disclaimer: Not all law enforcement officers are like this but many are.<br /><br />I have a nephew that is a Drug Enforcement Officer for a western city. When he heard I was living in a van he physically shuddered &amp; stuttered. <br /><br />I just chuckled <img src="/images/boards/smilies/biggrin.gif" alt="" align="absmiddle" border="0" /><br /><br />Now he has to tell his peers he has an uncle that is a van dweller <img src="/images/boards/smilies/rofl.gif" alt="" align="absmiddle" border="0" /><br /><br />gus

 

[Seraphim]

"Disclaimer: Not all law enforcement officers are like this but many are."<br /><br />Thank you for that, at least. But I believe you'll find fewer of us than you think are&nbsp;that rigid. <br /><br />I found most of the comments on that thread reasonable and indicative of what police officers generally think. If someone needs help, attempt to fnd it for them. If they're not a danger or nuisance, leave them be. If in doubt, and they're violating a law, have them move on. There was one response that basically indicated he would move them on out of his area of responsibilty, no matter what.&nbsp;<br /><br />OP - notDisclaimer: Not all law enforcement officers are like this but many are.<br /><br />&nbsp;Disclaimer: Not all law enforcement officers are like this but many are.<br /><br />OP - not to argue, erely curious what comment you found offensive?

 

[Pikachu711]

<p>I'll add this one comment that I'm certain will reflect the vast majority of the L.E.O.'s we encounter in our travels.<br /><br />They are a "reflection" of socieity in general. There are officers who&nbsp;are very friendly &amp; will do their job in a respectful manner. By the same token there are officers who are "less than" friendly in the way they interact with the general public. This is the case in any chosen profession.<br /><br />How many times have we met people who are friendly, outgoing, etc. and enjoy interaction with the public. This is the ideal type person to meet. I'm this type person whenever possible. By the same token, I've met people who were totally miserable and wanted to make everyone they meet miserable as well. They want to ruin people's days. These people I avoid like the plague!!! These are toxic people.<br /><br />You can't generalize a police officer's attitude. Most police officer's are generally good people who go to work,&nbsp;have an uneventful tour of duty and go home to their loved ones at the end of their shift. That's the best case scenario.&nbsp;<br /><br />I&nbsp;try to be respectful of their position as a law enforcement officer. I&nbsp;know&nbsp;that&nbsp;they&nbsp;have a very difficult job that I could never do. But I&nbsp;also realize that once in a while we all have bad days.&nbsp;I try to be understanding whenever possible.</p>

 

[Seraphim]

Pikachu: +1<br /><br />And everyone has had a crappy day at times, and may have responded with less patience on a call than they normally would have.<br /><br />There's also a duty among officers to 'police' themselves - some people who get the job shouldn't be permitted to remain in the position.

 

[angeli]

Pikachu,<br /><br />Thanks for a very interesting link.&nbsp; I can see that some of those comments would make a vandweller uncomfortable, simply for the judgement of some of the replies.&nbsp; The phrase "those types", referring to someone sleeping in their vehicle, does tend to get to me as well.<br /><br />But I can also see the bigger picture as well: the concern for the individual that may be medically compromised at a rest stop, having to detect which vehicle is a source of crime, and which is simply a vandweller looking for a spot to catch some rest.&nbsp; Gotta be a tough call.<br /><br />I currently have a few LEO who I consider to be very good friends.&nbsp; I've also been 'hassled', verbally abused and mis-treated for having the misfortune to be stuck on the side of the road in an old truck with a flat tire.<br /><br />I do believe that the officer who replied that he would make all vandwellers who were boondocking move on, no matter what the law said, is an example of a slippery slope.&nbsp; It isn't his comfort level or personal prejudice that matters, sadly, it IS the law.&nbsp; If someone is breaking no laws, they should be free from harassment.&nbsp; Doesn't mean they will be, tho.&nbsp; And it is worth noting that one officer said that sleeping in your car in the dark in back of a warehouse makes you into a target.

 

[Pikachu711]

<p>Angeli, the one comment that did "rub me the wrong way" was the one posted by an LEO who commented that he enouraged van dwellers to move on where sleeping in vehicles was illegal.<br /><br />That was the one comment that did bother me. It wasn't a major issue, but it did get me thinking a bit. As I've mentioned in prior postings, LEO's do have a difficult job but some seem to take issue with us as van dwellers.<br /><br />Granted, we are "technically" violating the law by sleeping in our vehicles. I also understand that some jurisdictions enforce these law to different degrees. That's the decision of the local police department.<br /><br />That is what had me ask some time ago if there were some cities, towns, etc. that were "less than" friendly toward van dwellers &amp; RV'ers.&nbsp;There are some jurisdictions that are van dweller &amp; RV unfriendly.<br /><br />Sometimes we as van dwellers have to deal with police officers who don't share our opinion of our chosen lifestyle. Some people will never understand.</p>

 

[VanTrekker]

<p>I read the thread and 12 replies and found virtually nothing that upset me.&nbsp; What I read into it is that most of the officers said they really don't have that much of a problem with it as long as we don't act like victims and get an attitude if they check us.&nbsp; I say this because most of us are a little cavalier in our approach - myself included!<br /><br />Nobody wants to get awakened but we ourselves sometimes say we are&nbsp;"hassled" when a cop checks on us.&nbsp; From what I saw, it doesn't look like the police (at least most of them) really have an axe to grind.<br /><br />That being said, I really don't want to have any police contact.&nbsp; No offense to them!&nbsp; Lately, I've noticed people who are doing blatant camping in public parks, etc. where they are certain to get approached.&nbsp; I kind of like "Anytime Fitness" as a place to park overnight.&nbsp; <br /><br />I can always say (while wearing gym clothes) that I got tired and crashed for a bit.&nbsp; The plan in the future is to just work an overnight shift at a crap job.&nbsp; Then I can sleep virtually anywhere, anytime with little chance of contact.<br /><br />*shudder*<br /><br />V.T.&nbsp;</p>

 

[angeli]

Pikachu,<br /><br />Are you saying that it is illegal EVERYWHERE to sleep in your vehicle?&nbsp; Or did I misunderstand your post?<br /><br />As i said, I've been treated well by many LEO, but then I've also been mistreated.&nbsp; My own attitude of polite helpfulness didn't seem to make a difference ONLY in the instance that the officers in question were intent upon venting their frustration upon someone they assumed would not fight back.&nbsp; And of course they were right about that!&nbsp; <img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle"><br /><br />VT - essentially i agree with you, with the caveat that the 'these types' comment is offensive at it's root.&nbsp; I am not a type because I chose to vandwell.&nbsp; There are many different people who do this.<br /><br />and my irritation at that bigoted comment is certainly not limited to LEO (nor is the prejudice, sadly), but since that the subject is about LEO attitudes to vandwelling, thus the context.

 

[Pikachu711]

Angeli, I'm NOT saying that it's illegal to sleep in a vehicle everywhere. Laws prohibiting sleeping in vehicles vary by each jurisdicition in which you travel. Every state, city, county, etc. all have their own statutes, laws, etc. that dictate when, where and if you can sleep in a vehicle on a public roadway or other areas.<br /><br />I would never presume to tell anyone that it's illegal to sleep in a vehicle in all areas of the country.

 

[Seraphim]

Pikachu

Is there a difference between an illegality and something that's 'technically' illegal? Except, erhaps, that you disagree with that individual law?

I can see reasons, as a LEO, to consistently urge van dwellers to 'move along' which have nothing to with a prejudice.

 

[angeli]

Pikachu,<br /><br />Not trying to split hairs, but just wanting to understand your post.&nbsp; <img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" alt="" align="absmiddle" border="0" /><br /><br />Seraphim,<br /><br />I hear you, and if it is not illegal to vandwell or sleep in a vehicle in a particular jurisdiction, would you then consistently urge van dwellers to 'move along' and if so, why?<br /><br />Again, I am not trying to pick or split hairs, but simply to understand enough to enhance my own safety as I travel as a single female vandweller.

 

[josephusminimus]

One of the first things officers learn about in the law enforcement academies or junior colleges where they're pursuing certification courses:&nbsp; Police discretion.&nbsp; Which is to say, "just enforcing the law" is a phrase involving the entire range of choices on the part of the officer.&nbsp; <br /><br />And police officer discretion almost certainly emerges from the personality traits, mood, self-esteem and self-image of the officer involved, as well has his world-view toward the impressions he carries and the stereotypes he believes.<br /><br />The officer is profiling the person he's interviewing unconsciously, constantly, and in all likelihood he's equipped to do it more formally through his computer.<br /><br />There's evidently some inclination for officers to stereotype police officers with assertions about the laws they're just enforcing [with discretion], and certainly a citizenry perception and stereotyping of a reciprocal nature that can't be undone by defensive counter-self-stereotyping.<br /><br />Maybe we all just need profiling programs in our cars, RVs and vans.&nbsp; <br /><br />"Here's my profile, officer, and here's what my comp tells me about your profile."<br /><br />"Thank you sir.&nbsp; Here's my profile of you.&nbsp; Shall we sit down over coffee and discuss the ways each of us deviate from our profiles?"&nbsp;

 

[Seraphim]

"I hear you, and if it is not illegal to vandwell or sleep in a vehicle in a particular jurisdiction, would you then consistently urge van dwellers to 'move along' and if so, why?"<br /><br />Would I? No. <br /><br />A copule of things to consider:<br /><br />Officer discreetion has been decreasing consistenly since I've been employed in the field. We are now required to issue citations on accidents if a report is taken, assuming thre's probable cause ofa violation of the law.&nbsp; Exact actions are dictated on speeding violations, domestic violence calls, etc.<br /><br />It's easier for an officer to prevent future problems for himself by having the <strong>potential</strong> source of problem move along, if feasibly possible. If the officer does nothing, and the persons causes a problem, commits a crime, gets hurt, or any number of other things, everyone turns to the officer and asks, "Why didn't you do something to prevent this from happening?" The potential of complaints from the public or lawsuits.<br /><br />I had one of these recently: someone complained about a drunk walking in the road. I spoke to him - he wasn't drunk but had mild mental issues. He had walked along the white line on the road during a portion of the road there was no sidewalk. He had done nothing wrong. He thought he was in a different city, but displayed every ability to take care of himself. He claimed to be going to someplace 'just around the corner'&nbsp; - a place which didn't exist. I offered him a ride there. He refused. I wished him a nice day and he went on his way. I watched him for a bit, and he did nothing that was a safety problem for himself or others. After I stopped watching him, he went to a store and exposed himself to the employees there. <br /><br />Everyone stereotypes: it's a built in safety feature. We look at someone, make an initial judgement, then decide if we want to interact with them, ignore them, or run for our lives.<br /><br />Have to go. More later, if needed.

 

[Seraphim]

Addendum: to the story, the victims were unhappy when they learned there had been previous police contact with the subject and 'nothing had been done'. People wanted to know why I hadn't given him a ride to the city limits (an old police practice to pawn off problems or potential problems onto the next jurisdiction). It was eventually determined I had performed correctly lol. Had there been an 'official' complaint, however, and someone decided I should have done something differently, I could have lost three days pay. One example, though, of why an officer may develop the opinion it's just easier to have someone move along.

Too bad he hadn't gone another 100 yards before choosing to do something. He'd have been in the next jurisdiction... Lol

 

[josephusminimus]

So you are making an argument FOR profiling.

I'm actually just reflecting on the entire matter, examining my own world views, making a series of observations in recognition of a reality that exists in human interactions. It's a subject I haven't given a lot of thought to in a longish while, and since I'm going to be on the road, I'm gratified to be provided food for thought by threads such as this one.

I used to teach a few courses at the New Mexico Department of Public Safety LEA during the early '90s, spent considerable time observing young fledgling police officers. Their attitudes, their discussions among themselves during breaks, their bearing. The stereotypes of the population they expressed. Their stated aspirations.

During that time I confess to have formed some preferences as to whether I'd care to be stopped, or otherwise interact with the great majority of them under any circumstances.

Yep, profiling exists. It's a reality. There's no arguing for it, or against it, except as an ideal or an abstraction. Where the rubber meets the road there's nothing abstract about it.

 

[Seraphim]

For those not familiar, the issue of profiling came to light in the 70s. A highway patrol officer worked in an area in which the major drug traffic flowed through Florida and out to the rest of the US. After years of being involved in drug busts on the highway, he began to notice common factors in the stops that occurred in his jurisdiction at that particular time.

1. They generally involved younger Hispanic males
2. The offenders generally wore a lot of gold jewelry
3. They drove older, large vehicles
4. The interior of the vehicle appeared as if the occupants had been living in, not stopping often: large amounts of McDonalds wrappers, etc.

He also developed reasons for these common denominators.

He realized that, based on these denominators, in his particular area of employment, he could be more successful by applying them. He was - having accrued an outstanding number of drug busts. (I think the percentage of those trafficking drugs was between 70 and 90 percent, but don't quote me. It's been about 25 years since I studied the case.)

He would see a vehicle that met these criteria, wait for a legitimate reason to make a stop, then while talking to them, asked permission to search their car. Amazingly enough, most gave permission. No drugs, they went on their way with a warning; but there was an extremely high success rate of finding traffickers.

The courts, however, decided his profiling system was insufficient reasonable suspicion to make a traffic stop. And, despite the fact he waited for a reason, he WAS making the stop based on the profile. The drug flow continued through his jurisdiction without his impedance, after that.

Would his profiling system worked elsewhere in the country? No, but it worked in his jurisdiction at that particular time.