Keto Lifestyle

[Dingfelder]

That M.D. is relaying very old information that was highly questionable even when first presented. It's the safe thing to say, and he may not be able to advise any differently.

I think keto is a narrow diet, which means many people will by definition find it hard to sustain. Then again, there are many other narrow diets that people sustain, like vegan, which is even more narrow by far. A diet not being for everyone shouldn't put it beyond consideration. Even being a vegetarian is narrow, and there are probably at least a billion of those.

It really is a lifestyle rather than a diet, though. I don't think eating a certain way only temporarily is going to be helpful for most people, and going in and out of a keto diet is much more difficult and counter-productive than most any other approach to eating, including the warrior diet and fasting, IMO.

 

[RoamerRV428]

yea a 2017 article ain't cutting it a few years later to me, more have gone into the ketosis way of life and more will

 

[Doubleone]

Yeah, a 2017 rehash of 1950's info offered without analysis or proof...  But this is representative of the quality of information out there.  If it's published on the internet it must be true...Right?  

I do tend to place a bit more value on more current articles, especially when they incorporate current source articles, or meta-analysis exploring the evolution of the concepts, but I want authors to convince me with a good solid argument.  And I immediately discount the n=20 kinda studies.  I want to see good scientific method, a larger study pool, discussion and analysis, identification of any confounds or limitations, and suggestions for further study.  In other words I'm very open to the info, just convince me with compelling evidence... and cite sources so I can read up on them as well.

 

[RoamerRV428]

You know I started to ignore all the crap on the net once I went by my own physical feelings.
As I changed eating protein and fat only, I improved so much and I can never deny that this is the way to live, period!! For me. I think just myself is my best judge of any menu and how I feel so, if zero carb is it, I am going for it no matter what the tons of floating articles out there say Proof is in the pudding LOL, errr...ribeye HA

 

[1shemp]

Lets see.Grapefruit diet, South beach diet,Weight watchers diet,cabbage soup diet,Mediteranian diet,Atkins diet,Sugar busters diet,keto diet.I've managed to make it this long avoiding all of those.Fact is,heredity has much more influence on a persons life than any diet.One thing all these diets have in common;somebody,somewhere is making money by promoting it.

 

[Queen]

Dr. I’ve been following says in 8+ years of medical training (he’s a nephrologist aka kidney specialist) he received a grand total of four hours of nutritional training. I’m thinking our docs, especially older ones, may not really have any idea what’s right for us when it comes to nutrition.

 

[Dingfelder]

Same thing I've read numerous times, Queen.

1shemp, someone is making money off any subject anyone has likely heard of. That there is money to be made is probably the only reason we have heard of it. If we're going to wait to get our information from saints, we're going to be a long time waiting.

And no, heredity isn't everything or even effectively everything. A good number of cancers are induced by diet and environment. Some can even be passed along by way of virus. Diabetes and therefore a wide range of ailments is also heavily influenced by diet. And so are some of those ailments, like high blood pressure, themselves.

Sure, plenty, if not most, "diets" are fads. But sustainable lifestyles aren't. You might eat nothing but grapefruits for a week, but if you did that for a lifetime, it would be a short lifetime. Things like keto or vegan are completely different. They might be just as hard or unlikely for the average person to get into, but you could do them forever.

 

[1shemp]

Dinger.Don't want to be disagreeable here,But i have read the same thing about all the fad diets that I mentioned.It doesn't really matter in the end,because we are all going to be dead.By the way,I see on tv now that there is a new fad diet about eating dehydrated beets.I guess you can't eat the beets as they come from the garden because no one could make any money from that.**** Sapiens are the most intelligent animal to ever walk upon the earth,but we are also the biggest suckers that ever lived.As Mark Twain said about religion;We believe in things that we know aren't true.Because we want to.

 

[RoamerRV428]

agree 1shemp on fad dieting and greed, profit and more but when you weed thru the fads, something like keto and lc aren't fads. They are ways to eat while eliminating the sugar from your life. Sugar is evil to us point blank, now a tiny bit from a few blueberries, nah, but the way sugar is ingested nowadays is criminal and the body shows everyone just how bad it is...not just being heavy, it rots your veins and more inside, the stuff ya can't see easily from the outside.

their are 'diets' to drop lbs fast and there are long term lifestyle eating changes.

Heredity covers a lot but it doesn't cover sugar intake and how it works in the body. A physical body is just that, it works on science etc and sugar effects every person the same, might not be the same time line for all tho...some go down fast with diabetes etc and some can go forever on moderate sugar til they live to 90s but it is a crapshoot on all of life for everyone, what ya get out of it in years. But what one gets from eating healthier and eliminating a ton of sugar in their body is immediate. You live a better daily life actually. Physically Mentally too...brain fog clears when you ditch big sugar in your life. It is amazing.....but only one way that works for anyone is if they do it. Those who don't do a keto/lc type lifestyle will never understand. They can't cause they don't get the great benefits, and when ya don't know the great benefits and been there, tried it, how can one even talk about it? They can't but many can throw out a ton of opinions on it as if it were truth and fact when all it boils down to is useless info being spewed from those who never tried it. Kinda like a lot of things in life, every subject known to man....people comment from 0 experience. Those who live the lifestyle, walk the walk, is immersed and gets real results can say facts. Opinion vs real facts is what it boils down to for me now. I feel the best physical changes ever adopting a very low carb/zero carb menu and I can say for a fact I live better and healthier. It works but only way to know is to live it.

 

[Dingfelder]

1shemp, I don't find disagreement inherently disagreeable, so no worries there. I hope you feel the same way when I do not agree.

I just think it's important to acknowledge that making money off something is not the same thing as being corrupt. Everybody needs to make a living, and few people don't like money. Nobody begrudges a doctor making a living or says if he likes people or medicine so much, why doesn't he do it for free? Or that being paid proves he or she is a scoundrel. Yet that thinking is commonly applied elsewhere. Really, an issue should stand or fall on its own merits. And the people I've been reading are doctors anyway.

Regarding the two diets I mentioned, keto and vegan, there is no inherent reason a person couldn't do them without buying a single specialized product or supplement, too. Both insist on a wide variety of commonly-available foods. It's just not the same as a grapefruit diet or the like. And neither really work as a pure diet rather than a lifestyle, so they are not fads and can't be dipped into and out of like fads. They are not scams.

It's important to keep in mind that medical science, too, goes through its own fads. Science wouldn't be science if it wasn't open to revision and even anxious to find improvements in its concepts and applications. If someone holds a currently-accepted medical or scientific idea up to scrutiny, that doesn't mean the person doing it is a flat-earther, or that something sacred is being violated. Heck, scientists themselves do that to each other's science as a matter of course. They build whole careers around it. And they should.

I'm just saying that logic is paramount, so I think of scientific knowledge and its acquisition as an ongoing, very open process, and an inherently democratic one. That's one reason why so many in the medical community have differing opinions on keto, cholesterol, etc. One isn't necessarily striking out into the wilderness when looking into what one doctor proposes rather than another. It can happen, but it doesn't appear to be happening with keto, vegetarian, or vegan diets. They are all sustainable long-term, rely on easily available foods, and rely on few if any supplements.

 

[Dingfelder]

I started out with nephrologist Dr. Jason Fung, and now I'm reading Keto Clarity, by Jimmy Moore and various consulting medical professionals. Moore is a blogger, not a medical professional, but he has written books with doctors, including Fun. Anyway this one is a bit repetitive, like Fung's "Complete Guide to Fasting." Still good though.

At any rate, it convinced me to get my ketones measured. The urine ones aren't so good and urine ketones may disappear from the blood once you really get in ketosis, so they are only good for the transition into ketosis. Blood stripes are very expensive, especially if you want to test more than once a day. Keto Clarity recommended doing it with a breath analyzer, which is about as good as blood strip testing, but vastly cheaper. SO I went to Amazon and got one. It just came in.

I blew at 2.70, which I was pleasantly surprised at. Well into proper nutritional ketosis, even toward the top end. More than 3.0 isn't really ideal. You supposedly start to get into starvation ketosis. Which I don't know much about yet, and imagine must be stimulated by fasting, so I doubt it's that dangerous for most people. I'll be reading further.

Anyway, one of the ideas suggested was that you test frequently when you are still learning how your own very individualized body reacts to ketosis in general, and to taking in different proportions of carbs and protein. I will be checking again after dinner, and then a few hours later, as I eat with friends at dinner and tend to take in some carbs. I think I must be doing pretty well though, because that's where I am getting most of my carbs and even a substantial amount of my protein -- which I don't want converting to glucose on me and kicking me out of ketosis.

Anyway, I like the ability to fine tune so far. Previously it was pure guesswork, and I was much more insecure about being able to know my limits and stay in ketosis.

 

[heartseed]

My husband and I enjoy the keto lifestyle also. As I plan our van-based living (snowbirds), I am trying to figure out how to store the fat and the meat without a refrigerator. We will probably use a Yeti cooler. We are not going to add electric to our minivan. 




Any tips would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Dingfelder]

Oils in moderate sized containers should not spoil too quickly. There's your fat. Keep some bottles unopened and the spoilage rate gets extended considerably. They vary wildly in how quickly they spoil though.

Butter can be stored underwater so that it stays good for quite a while. Google or Amazon-search "butter bell."

Coconut oil lasts a long time without going rancid, at least to the taste. Eggs, a source of both fat and protein, can last for many days out of a fridge unless washed or unless the temperature really gets nuts.

Nuts supply fats and protein both. Rancidity problems, but you might be able to manage them.

Canned meat lasts too long to worry about. Extremely durable. Tuna, sardines, kippers. At some point it gets cheaper to throw stuff away than to keep it, so maybe canned chicken is not as economical as cheap store-bought regular chicken even if you throw it away.

A lot depends on your particular vulnerability to protein being turned into glucose, or beans, etc. You and your husband may differ tremendously on that. So while you might get a good meal or hearty snack off green beans with some grated cheese and olive oil, he might have the carbs in those beans pop him right out of ketosis. It turns out these things are very individual, and one of your first profitable avenues of research might well be finding out the differences between your biology and his, by measuring ketones. You may not be able to eat the same meals.

 

[Doubleone]

When in ketosis the ketones we have are mostly beta‐hydroxybutyrate and a smaller amount of acetoacetate ketones. Urine strips measure only the excess acetoacetate ketones that blow off in our urine.  They don't measure the beta‐hydroxybutyrate directly.  So one can still be in ketosis, and have enough ketones, but the strips may indicate at a lower range.  I find my body uses up ketones overnight and the first strip in the morning is occasionally a step lower than the evening before.  It doesn't happen every day, maybe half the time...   In the two years I've been using strips, I've only ever got a deep purple (highest) indication on one occasion.  I tried to push it by getting real strict but I always got mostly dark violet (between second and highest).  I know I'm solidly in ketosis at anywhere from rose to violet, it's just that my body is using up available ketones so any excess is showing as less.  I don't panic if it goes to peach first thing in the morning because it bounces back before noon.  Breath is more real time, and measures ketone metabolism based on the acetone content in breath. 

As it was explained to me there are two ways to get into ketoacidosis, 1.) Diabetic ketoacidosis - raging high glucose in diabetic patients and too little insulin, or 2.) Alcoholic ketoacidosis - which is associated with severe alcoholism and a buildup of excessive lactate (typically long-term abuse, a recent binge, dehydration, vomiting, and no food).  These circumstances are unlikely in normal healthy people.  Diabetic ketoacidosis only happens with excessive glucose, so by virtue of a low-carb diet one shouldn't have much if any glucose, and even with excessive protein intake and gluconeogenesis a healthy liver would simply take over and secret insulin.  Alcoholic ketoacidosis is pretty rare, but considering severe lactic acid build up is required, it would be unlikely in healthy people.  Lactic acid occurs with extreme anaerobic exercise (not enough oxygen, marathon runners, etc.) and lactic acidosis usually involves dehydration.  Most alert (non-impaired) persons would tend to self-regulate exercise and monitor hydration to avoid excessive lactic acid build up because of the associated muscle pain.  Lactic acid is the muscle burn from extreme exertion and the 'next day' soreness, and the pain is a powerful feedback mechanism.  The liver and kidneys clear lactic acid on an ongoing basis, however, an impaired liver or kidney might contribute to build up.  I suppose a low-carb diet in conjunction with excessive alcohol consumption and/or impaired liver/kidney function could make one more susceptible, but normal healthy people really shouldn't have an issue.  Diabetics also shouldn't get into a problem as long as they regularly monitor their sugar and adjust insulin accordingly.

 

[RoamerRV428]

once truly keto adapted and you are well under at least around 20 total carbs per day then keto strips are useless. They don't measure the truth...only bloodwork checks matter then.

I am in deep deep keto cause I am always almost zero carb daily for years. I barely turn a keto strip pink LOL Once you are ketone adapted they aren't in the bloodstream like one entering ketosis when a strip might show some changes. Strips measure some ketones etc....an adapted body uses ketones way different then a body entering ketosis etc. A ketone adapted person must use a blood meter for real results.

 

[Doubleone]

I think we're all saying the same thing here... When adapted and eating just what your body needs, your body is using up all the available ketones so there will be less (or minimal) excess ketones to measure in urine. Strips are a broad measure of excess ketones in urine. If one's body is using ketones efficiently it shows as a low indication on a urine strip. Breath is more real-time but subject to minor deviations in accuracy. Blood is the most accurate but also the most expensive.

 

[RoamerRV428]

I agree LOL

 

[AnnieSantiago]

I keep reading "once in deep ketosis the strips don't work." I've lost 20 pounds on KETO, have been in deep ketosis for 4 months, I keep my carbs below 20 per day, and my strips are still working fine.

Maybe it just depends on the strips people are using.

For me, the strips were affordable compared to a blood monitor, which was not and for me, the strips worked GREAT, when I was starting out and needed to know whether or not I was in ketosis.

Plus the fact that once you've been on KETO for a while, you just know when you're in ketosis and don't have to continually test yourself as long as you're sticking to the guidelines and losing weight or maintaining.

I still use them about once a week "just for fun" - I love seeing the color change and it inspires me to keep going.

 

[badmotorscooter]

I'm not an expert, and I didn't do this research. But it's something to consider...

https://www.wellandgood.com/good-food/low-carb-diet-shortened-life-span/

 

[LERCA]

It’s your body and you know it best. For me when I stopped eating meat all the gas and pain went away. I can still eat a tiny amount of chicken, fish, turkey but rarely do. Just a warning. My neighbor was naturally a Keto eater. Ate meat at every meal and no carbs or low carbs now his kidneys are failing. Too much protein. He was also very overweight.
For me eating appropriate portions and a bit of everything (i.e. not cutting out any food group) has worked well. Fruit and vegetables have vital minerals. And without carbs I’m exhausted. I agree with Bad. Moderation is key. In everything.

I don’t eat much because of acid reflux and my refusal to get surgery (for me surgery has as many side effects as the original problem) so I fast for long periods each day. I feel very good. The more fresh food and less packaged I eat also the fewer digestive problems I have.

Hunter gatherer cultures actually ate very little meat because it was hard to kill and each person got a very tiny portion of the meat. The human body was not made to eat large amounts of meat on a daily basis.