Insurance Hades

[Almost There]

I've been going through an insurance from hell situation here that others may be able to avoid with a few simple steps.

WARNING: Long sad tale and some rant to follow!!..

When I bought the van (2002 GMC Savana 2500), the DMV asked whether it was for personal or commercial use and I had it registered as personal use...so far so good!

I talked to my friendly down the street in a small town insurance broker when I put the van on the policy and told them what my plans were for it and asked them about moving it to RV coverage when it was done.

Put it on storage insurance for the winter, no problem!!

Put it back on full coverage this spring and then received a notification that effective the end of this month, my insurance coverage was being cancelled because the insurance company wanted off the liability..WTF!

Turns out that my broker had given the insurance company a heads up of what I was intending to do to the van. The insurance company won't cover any vehicle that has had or is having 'modifications' made to it.

A little background here would help. The only reason I wanted RV insurance on the van once it was done was because here in Ontario your auto policy doesn't cover contents whereas RV coverage does. If you have a break-in to your automobile any loss of contents has to be claimed on your homeowners or tenants policy not your auto. It wasn't always so and isn't so in a lot of states but that's the way it works here. As well we all know, when we're van dwellers we may not even have a tenants/homeowners policy at all.

My broker held out little hope of finding any carrier for me and told me to go looking on my own. Not a  happy camper at this point!!..

I scoured the internet, made many, many phone calls and wrote NO beside a whole lot of insurance companies.

Along the way I ran into another problem - even though the van was registered as 'personal use', some of the insurance companies automatically and without any leeway, consider the 2500 to be a commercial vehicle no matter what!! Only one broker had the sense to ask what the registered weight of the vehicle was since one of his carriers divided vehicles by weight not model.

Through much teeth mashing and high stress levels, I've finally found one insurance company that will cover the vehicle under certain conditions while I do all the modifications. Not as RV coverage but will at least offer me liability, comp and collision.

After it's done if I want RV insurance I may be able to move it but it would be to an association that covers the vehicles and drivers that no one else will touch because of high risk. It would be at a premium 3 to 5 times what I'm paying now and the coverage would be dependent on an outside appraisal being done at my expense.

As it stands now my advice to anyone converting their own vehicle my advice is:

1. Don't tell your broker you're modifying a vehicle. Check with someone who is not your broker to see what insurance arrangements you can make.
2. Check BEFORE you buy to make sure that insurance arrangements are okay with you re commercial vs personal auto - had the van been a 3500 I would be up the creek!

 

[LeeRevell]

Have you tried any of the specific RV insurers? Class C and Class A RVs are a lot heavier than a van.

 

[Almost There]

Have you tried any of the specific RV insurers?  Class C and Class A RVs are a lot heavier than a van.

All of them!

They'll all take an RV of just about any class that came off the dealers lot already done but the minute you say 'home conversion' they all run for the bushes!

Trying to make them understand that I wasn't plumbing in propane and putting in holding tanks was impossible...didn't matter, didn't care!

Oh and I've had to tell them I'm not putting in any stove! The thought of a marine quality Origo alcohol stove would have sent them to the loony bin!

 

[flying kurbmaster]

So if it was 3500 which is how many tons? How many tons is 2500, 3/4 or 1 ton. When you say up the creek, would that have meant you would have had to register it as a commercial vehicle and why would that be a terrible thing? Is insurance more expensive??

 

[MikeRuth]

Interesting story, you don't mention what part of the country your in or name insurers, any reason?
I think this "friend / broker" is actually a SOB and a little personal vengeance is in order but that's just me.
I have to wonder was the term "modifying" clarified?
I realize you were hoping to get the RV ins so as to cover the contents.
How much of a difference are you looking at commercial versus standard policy?

I'm in los angeles and my E-150 sold empty has to be registered as a Commercial vehicle no option although I get a pretty good rate.
I haven't looked yet but it seems to me that we ought to be able to find a "Home owners/renters" type of policy that could be based on an inventory of the contents.

Sorry for your Hell in getting insurance coverage.

 

[LeeRevell]

Seems I will simply keep my E150 insured on the regular Auto policy. The contents will simply have to be 'at risk'......

 

[GotSmart]

Seems I will simply keep my E150 insured on the regular Auto policy.  The contents will simply have to be 'at risk'......

Look into a "Renters policy" Mine covers the contents of my van after a $500 deductible.   

 

[Almost There]

So if it was 3500 which is how many tons? How many tons is 2500, 3/4 or 1 ton. When you say up the creek, would that have meant you would have had to register it as a commercial vehicle and why would that be a terrible thing? Is insurance more expensive??

3500 is the designation for a 1 ton van, that doesn't mean that it weighs one ton. The 2500 is the designation for a 3/4 ton van. Similar to Ford E150 is 1/2 ton, E 250 is 3/4 etc.

And yes, commercial insurance is priced significantly higher than personal use. I have mine set at minimum mileage because I don't drive to work each day.

Interesting story, you don't mention what part of the country your in or name insurers, any reason?
I think this "friend / broker" is actually a SOB and a little personal vengeance is in order but that's just me.
I have to wonder was the term "modifying" clarified?
I realize you were hoping to get the RV ins so as to cover the contents.
How much of a difference are you looking at commercial versus standard policy?

I'm in los angeles and my E-150 sold empty has to be registered as a Commercial vehicle no option although I get a pretty good rate.
I haven't looked yet but it seems to me that we ought to be able to find a "Home owners/renters" type of policy that could be based on an inventory of the contents.

Sorry for your Hell in getting insurance coverage.

Actually where I am is in the long rant but that's okay...I'm in Ontario.

The broker that opened her mouth isn't a friend but is local and should have known enough about insurance companies not to tell it all and identify their client but rather should have made a general inquiry. The actual insurance company in this case was Optimum but when I was phoning around I found that all of the companies that advertise 'RV insurance' won't touch an RV that didn't come off an assembly line that way. Any home conversions are out of the question which is precisely what so many of us are doing here.

The modifications I was planning on making had been delineated from the very start. The problem that I ran into is that the insurance companies apparently lump all modifications together including installing racing nitro systems.

Commercial insurance is almost double what I'm already overpaying here. I don't have the final bill yet but my previous year was app $1,100 for the year for 1M liability, all the rest of the mandatory insurance, comp and collision with 300/500 deductible. I don't drive to and from work and I had one claim 3 years ago on a policy with first claim forgiveness. Insurance costs here are the highest in the country and mine is low because I live in a small town. It can be double that if you're in a major city. Once I'm on the road, auto and tenants insurance will be the largest of all my monthly expenses!!

I will end up having to keep my tenants policy in effect even when I am 'renting a room' from a girlfriend to provide me with a legal residence for tax, bank, insurance, legality etc. etc. I also found out that the minimum contents on a tenants policy is $30,000. - you can't get them to write a contents for less than that. And the minimum deductible is $1,000. industry standard. I don't need 30G worth of content even when I add the stuff in that's in the van!

It's the scramble for coverage that is making this so stressful. I got 10 days notice that I was having my insurance cancelled on me because I asked a question.

 

[offroad]

Find this got ya situation very interesting. Since I was looking at vans. Did not realize my insurance rate could double by going to commercial rates. Will look at that closely.

 

[SoulRaven]

Oh boy, don't even get me started on insurance companies and cargo vans.

When I switched from a window van to a cargo van, about 10 days later they sent me a notice that I needed to take it into them for an inspection. As soon as they saw it was a cargo van my insurance went from $60/mo to $270/mo and they called it a commercial vehicle period. They complained about the solar panels, and said they could not insure me with them, but I told them they were there when I bought it, but I was going to remove them, so the agent didn't report them.

Not quite a year later, I got a notice that my insurance carrier had changed, and I needed to go in for another inspection. This time they not only complained about the solar panels, they also demanded to look inside, which they did not do on the previous inspection. Upon seeing it was a camper van, they immediately cancelled my coverage all together. The interior had come out of a wrecked factory camper van, so it looked like a factory job too, it didn't matter. The title said cargo van, and that wasn't what it was being used for. Game Over.

That was the last straw before I got rid of that miserable PITA. Went back to window vans and $60/mo insurance. They know they're camper vans and all they ask is whether I want it insured as a passenger van or an RV. I choose passenger van because that is what it's registered as which is much cheaper. Since my interior is totally portable and removable I have my choice, and the insurance companies could care less. I guess maybe the built in stuff has to be insured as an RV, and since I could truthfully say no propane, or holding tanks, I was good to go.

I only carry the required liability insurance, not full coverage, and my belongings aren't covered. My real insurance policy is having an emergency fund large enough to replace everything, van and all contents included. That way I have guaranteed full coverage with no insurance company hassles.

 

[ccbreder]

In the US, insurance and vehicle registration vary by State. Here in NJ any van or pickup can have passenger registration, the weight limited to 5000 pounds. Commercial registrations prohibit passengers and must have name and phone number on side. I would keep trying different insurance companies and hope you find what you need.

 

[offroad]

Think many just have liability for hitting someone else or to cover medical bill if passenger is injured. Nothing else. Is that what is common? What if you need to take a short term loan. Then guess you need full coverage.

 

[Theadyn]

Man, what a nightmare!! Hope you find a solution soon!!

This can vary a lot, it seems. I must count my lucky stars. Or maybe it's one of the perks of living in crappy rural western Oklahoma, I don't know. My insurance is liability only, I don't have and high dollar stuff inside so it's all I need really, and I pay about $140 every six months. It is a passenger van, and I told them used for leisure. And that was it. (even my little car is about the same amount to insure)

Even my RV that is for sale (which should be sold next week, woot!!) is cheap. I'm almost scared to admit it, lest I be run off this forum... *looks around for lynching mob*... I paid $48 for the YEAR to insure it, liability, again.

Yes, all vehicles are owned free and clear, so full coverage not needed. I don't keep full coverage because I drive older, less expensive vehicles. Ones that can be replaced easily. The RV is the most expensive one, and I didn't really drive it that much, so didn't see the sense in paying a huge sum for the few times I drove it, just took the risk.

Now.. when you talk about homeowners insurance though... ugh!! Oklahoma, the tornado alley, we can talk about insurance costs, yuck!! (hmm... which is why I no longer own a home, haha!)

Best of luck on your hunt!!

 

[Almost There]

The reason I brought this up in the first place was so that those that are just getting into their first vehicle or as Off Grid found out when he switched vehicles is that insurance, which is mandatory in most places, needs to be taken into consideration when choosing what to buy! If a cargo van is going to cost 3 to 4 times the monthly fee for insurance as opposed to a window van, which are you going to choose?

You also want to be very careful about what you tell your insurance company about what you're doing. If you're buying a commercially built RV it's a whole other ball game than if you're doing the interior yourself. A Class A RV owner can actually get RV full time insurance, don't even think about it if you are building anything up yourself although I did find that one company would take bus conversions but nothing else...strange!!

As of late yesterday, 1 insurance company has agreed to insure me and the vehicle but not as RV insurance. They're covering it under their personal lines section. I have submitted pics as it stands now and will have to submit the invoices for all materials, etc as well as more pics. It will be covered essentially at cost value. My labour obviously won't be factored in! The insurance broker isn't able to price it for me, that has to come directly from the underwriting department.

Some of us go with very low end interiors - plastic tubs for storage etc. and don't have a lot to lose. This is my retirement home and at the moment I can afford to do it the way I want. When I added up the cost of the 2 compressor fridge/freezer units, the C-head toilet etc. etc. then added in all my electronic equipment (laptop, printer etc),cellular stuff like antennas and jetpacks, generator, the camera equipment and personal belongings I wanted to have it all covered properly.

It won't be and I'll be playing the 'don't ask, don't tell' game.

 

[offroad]

ALMOST THERE - really appreciate this discussion. Was considering using a van as a daily driver for current job until I retire. (It's not a long drive so no real cost impact). But now am rethinking that plan completely. May still focus on getting a passenger windowed van, but am considering what the costs differences are between a 150(0) 1/2 ton or a 350(0) 1 ton vehicle per the insurance issues.

 

[Almost There]

ALMOST THERE - really appreciate this discussion. Was considering using a van as a daily driver for current job until I retire. (It's not a long drive so no real cost impact). But now am rethinking that plan completely. May still focus on getting a passenger windowed van, but am considering what the costs differences are between a 150(0) 1/2 ton or a 350(0) 1 ton vehicle per the insurance issues.

The lesson to be learned is to ask BEFORE you leap. Buying a van is hard enough these days but then you have to factor in what insurance is going to cost you as well.

I was lucky that the 3/4 ton cargo is acceptable for auto insurance as compared to commercial coverage but only with select companies. If their cut-off point is 5,000 lbs then even the 3/4 that I have wouldn't make the cut.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

Almost There if you didn't want full coverage and contents would this have been such a big issue would you have been able to get liability only from most of these insurance companies. If this vehicle is registered as a commercial vehicle would it have to comply to the commercial vehicle regulations like a daily walk around and log and yearly safety inspections as Ontario requires for heavier vehicles or did you bother to investigate this. cheers.

 

[Almost There]

Almost There if you didn't want full coverage and contents would this have been such a big issue would you have been able to get liability only from most of these insurance companies. If this vehicle is registered as a commercial vehicle would it have to comply to the commercial vehicle regulations like a daily walk around and log and yearly safety inspections as Ontario requires for heavier vehicles or did you bother to investigate this. cheers.

 
Had I not been interested in full RV coverage including having the contents covered under an RV policy, it would have been of no issue at all because I would never have asked my insurance broker about covering it with RV insurance when it was done. The insurance company would never have known that I was doing all the modifications.

 I asked because I had a budget for improvements that would come to several thousand dollars that would put the value of the vehicle in a total loss well over the book value of a standard vehicle. Ontario is a no fault province and if your vehicle is underinsured you take the loss! I'm a careful driver but it's the other idiots on the road that I worry about. I suffered a 10G loss 15 years ago in NC because of an underinsured driver so I might be more insurance conscious than the average jill.

Truthfully, I never realized until now that I might have run into a problem with it being a cargo van and a GMC 2500 model until I had a couple of the insurance companies I called this week tell me that it was a commercial vehicle in their eyes.

The DMV in Ontario asked if it was used for commercial or personal use and registered it as such once I swore that it would not be used for commercial purposes. I'm not sure what their rules are for the 3500 because I never asked. But it would pay to ask BEFORE you buy not after.

Obviously the insurance industry and the DMV don't operate under the same rules. I have the list of requirements from DMV that have to be completed for it to be considered a motor home. Once done I can have it declared to be a motor home. That won't change the availability of insurance at all. They write their own rules.

 

[Canine]

I've had 4 vans and never had a problem with ins.Rates were comparable with other autos I've owned.Of course I didn't go in telling them I was living in them either.None of their business.

 

[akrvbob]

$48 a year!! That's it, you're banned Theadyn!!!
Bob

PS. You know I'm kidding, we love having you here!