How necessary is it to have a gun?

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To the OP, I doubt if you will ever encounter the need for a weapon while camping or living in your Van. Situational Awareness and a bit of common sense should keep you out of trouble.

To some, like me, I just feel more comfortable with a weapon. I'm well trained on how to use one and I know as a God given fact that I would use it in defense of myself or others. What others do is their business and should not affect your enjoyment of seeing this great country.

As others have stated, the instances of someone being harmed camping are rare, negligible really, and nothing to worry about.

Stay safe.
 
Official figures? I dunno but a quick search of Google shows that approximately 1600 people have gone missing on public lands. Hmmmm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Most of us don't want to be found! Up close martial arts / self defense and staying healthy works better in my opinion, but never have let myself stay when worried, always better to move on.
 
Cammalu said:
Official figures?  I dunno but a quick search of Google shows that approximately 1600 people have gone missing on public lands.  Hmmmm



I smell BAR-B-QUE!




Just kidding y'all...its my wacked sense of humor that's much better in person...

:p
 
Cammalu said:
Official figures? I dunno but a quick search of Google shows that approximately 1600 people have gone missing on public lands. Hmmmm

Not questioning you in any way, but I would love to see the source of that statistic! Can you give us a link?
 
1600 out of how many visitors and over what time period? How many of the 1600 are lost hikers who are later found?

A quick google search leads me to this article with the 1600 number in the headline but in the body of the article, they admit there is no firm data on the subject

https://www.outsideonline.com/2164446/leave-no-trace

The NPS has a missing persons page with no data

https://www.nps.gov/articles/missing-persons-in-the-national-parks.htm

My brother works for the GAO and is coming to visit on Thursday. If I remember, I'll ask him if they have any reports on this. My guess is they dont.

on a side note, NPS has a "cold cases" page that maybe van dwellers should check out in case they have seen any of the people. There are 1600 people on this list though

https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1563/cold-cases.htm

All in all, I still dont feel a gun is necessary.
 
I can believe the 1600 missing but what is left out how many were found? people go missing all the time the vast majority are found. alive. highdesertranger
 
Cammalu said:
a quick search of Google shows that approximately 1600 people have gone missing on public lands.

Discussion of the "total missing" begs the questions what number X were victims of violence, what proportion of X would have been saved by carrying guns, and finally how many more fatal incidences Y would have occured as a *result* of everyone arming themselves as a precaution against the hypothetical violence.

I think Y is **many** times X, likely a facto of hundreds or even millions, given X is a tiny percentage of total campers/travellers/ dwellers.

Spaceman Spiff said:
I can see where it could be read differently.
Spiff, my original meaning was:

If someone already enjoys the hobby, trains for and practices it properly, then fine, go for it if you want (within the law as you travel), and ** maybe** you and those around you will be safer as a result.

However, if you happen to feel unsafe, due to unfamiliarity with coming changes to your location and life style, **and that** is your motivation for getting into buying and carrying a gun, then I think you are less likely to commit to the proper training and practices, and therefore you are actually **increasing** risks of danger to yourself and those around you.
 
RobndaHood said:
If you need an instructor, many Police officers instruct in their off time. Ask at a gun store who they recommend.

Good advice. I am leaning towards a Glock. Been awhile visiting a range; time to fresh'n up.
 
Ok, I hesitate to wade into this discussion. I posted on one thread and the thread got locked. I don't think it was anything I said but, isn't that what they all say? I am also Canadian and for some reason it makes discussions about guns with my southern friends a "loaded" topic. So lets try and stay apolitical and please read, keeping the following in mind.

I like guns. My father was the Canadian quick draw champion before he shipped off to WW2, my Grandfather was a decorated sniper in WW1. I was trained, and served, in the Canadian Armed Forces. I carried a personal sidearm for work for 25 years. I have used firearms in the course of my duties and responsibility to the Canadians I was sworn to protect. I enjoy the science/physics, and art of long range shooting, over 1000 yards. It is kind of like golf, but for grown ups. Just being funny golfers. I'll smoke a cigar with you on any course.

My humble advice is don't.
But this in no way should be construed that I am telling you not to.
Confused?

It is a confusing and deep commitment, and one that needs a great deal of brain work. It is something you need to really think about. If you carry a handgun it is awkward and regardless of the size shape and great holster takes years of getting used to. I haven't carried for four years and I still elbow bump the missing limb. A long gun needs to be stored, safely, and this presents issues. MOST IMPORTANT! Having it changes the way you think. You have an equalizer that makes you FEEL safe. Sometimes fear is a good thing, it is our natural response to something we perceive. I use the word perceive instead of see intentionally. We see some things but we perceive far more. Train as you fight and you'll fight as you trained. The more bleeding you do in training the less you do in a fight. Past putting little holes in paper targets, even human silhouette targets. The military made those targets to desensitize us to shooting humans. It shouldn't come natural right? Training like this is not a weekend or month long endeavor. It is a lifelong commitment. I have put a million rounds into paper. Easily a million, as I was instructor and usually put 100 pistol rounds in at lunch as I couldn't leave the range, and usually 50 5.56 after work. I did this for years.

In 2001 an incident made our service change the way we did things. We always fired on the target when the whistle blew. In real life situations the bad guy might surrender when aimed at. We never trained this way. Our first course of fire was six rounds in six seconds at ten feet (we used revolvers back then). Yeah, bad day for bad guy that made a bad initial decision and then changed his mind. Defense attorney; "So why exactly did you empty your revolver into Mr. X. It isn't just us up in the frozen north. The FBI used to train their officers to put their plastic speed loaders back into the leather pouch after reloading. Dropping them broke the plastic bullet holders and those cost money. Until too many FBI were hit or found dead with empty speed loaders in their pouches.
Marksmanship was important back then, we bragged about perfect targets like my buddies on the golf range. Then we added Sim Munitions to the training. Suddenly the targets shot back, and moved. These shots hurt like a bugger. We all quit bragging about holes in paper targets, and were happy not to be nursing a welt caused by a plastic bullet. Active shooting drills became the norm. Don't shoot scenarios and hostage close scenarios became routine. Some of our best marksmen, failed these new courses of fire. No longer could they Hold, Hang, and surprise shoot paper.

Ok a bunch of stuff about shoot training, more than perhaps you wanted. But, this is the commitment required. Simply having a big gun and being able to draw and point safely might be enough 50% of the time in a van dwelling or camping situation to pull you out of the muck. But what happens when the targets start moving? Worse one rushes you and he is close, 3 meters, and you are trying to to do; " grip, front site into rear ramp, finger to the trigger, squeeze."

BANG!

His moving other friend just shot you from the side. You weren't watching the side. The side is safe; guns only point down range!

Another very real scenario.

You and your fellow vaunbuddy argue over the Merlot wine that you have stupidly paired with a loin roast. The argument escalates and s/he takes their strawberry baked Alaskan and goes home. Upset you finish the wine alone and crawl into your down bag for a good nights rest.

A light awakes you, and you can hear voices. (You are unaware the loud merlot argument has been reported as a domestic, women calling for help!)

Pounding fist high on the van, and you realize this is not the first time you've heard this. It must be what woke you from your wine induced deep sleep. Blinking in the low light you see your gun. Relaxing with the security it brings you start to call out and challenge the voice.
The rear door opens a blinding light catches you!
Shouts "Don't Move!"
The light shifts. You see your hand outstretched toward the gun.
Bang, bang. bang. "Control this is one alpha five, shots fired subject is hit, roll a bus this locatio............"

Are these likely scenarios? Absolutely not! Would they happen? Probably not! Could they happen? Totally! Because we added a firearm to the equation we have something more to be afraid of. Many have posted you have nothing to be afraid of things rarely happen. So let me ask a question and propose an idea.

How many in our community, or on this thread, have had a fire they needed a fire extinguisher to put out while on the road?
How many people have killed any body, heard of anybody killing anybody, or had a friend of a friend's uncle hear about anybody being killed with a fire extinguisher?
How many people have heard of anybody accidentally getting shot, shooting someone else, or shooting themselves with a gun?

Get a fire extinguisher size of bear spray and mount it next to the never used fire extinguisher and rest easy knowing you are very very very unlikely to need either one. But if you do they are there, and you will never have to live with a bad mistake.

Please don’t take this as me telling you not to buy a gun. Shooting is fun. Buy it and one day if we meet up I’ll be happy to show you, and anyone else, some very cool and fun drills and skills.

Please don’t take this as a “I know better than you, what you should do.” I have taught and trained for years and unfortunately have seen “bad day” outcomes. Bad day outcomes with officers that trained for years. Momentary lapses in safety that hurt themselves or the ones they loved. The no win scenarios that happen in a second and then get microscopically analyzed for two years in criminal and then civil courts. I know what is good for me. My choice.

What is good for you is your choice. I hope that what I’ve added adds to your choice making knowledge in a positive and supportive way!
 
Scott, you should get together with a couple of friends and make a little YouTube video of this scenario. I'd watch it for sure!

A couple of thoughts:

In your scenario, reaching for a gun, a knife, a bat, or a bearspray bottle, all would likely result in the same outcome. So the gun itself is not what caused the intruding officer to shoot.

In the trucking world, some of us use a ratchet strap attached across the two door handles in the cab to secure the doors when parked in an 'iffy' location if we have to take a break somewhere that we think might not be safe. Curtains are pulled around the windshield and side windows, and a black strap is not visible from outside. We are of course, in the sleeper.

Yeah, windows can be broken and bad things can still happen, but an intruder cannot forcibly open the door instantly. He will make a LOT of noise trying. This gives us time to react (or panic and dial 911!)

Van/RV dwellers, and especially those without weapons, might be able to adopt this technique. Figure out a way to secure the doors besides just locking them.

Heavy D-rings installed in the doors and a few ratchet straps, or maybe just some simple slide-bolts like you see on outdoor fence gates might do the trick.

I agree that personal protection is something to be taken very seriously. You need passive security as well as active security.

Thanks for your well written article.

I'm still gonna have my firearms in the vehicle.
 
Hey Brian,

Thanks, I write professionally and I try to keep the discipline up even in forums. Great idea with the ratchet strap! Thanks for sharing that will be on my list of things to do. I respectfully disagree with the shoot don't shoot accesment. I see a gun the trigger gets two pounds of pressure and the little brown eye gets 20. If the movement continues toward the firearm I add pressure and I stop the movement. If it is a knife, can, bat more verbal direction will be given as I have time and time allows me more assessment. Semi prone person is not an immediate threat with those other weapons. Gun an inch or so away and movement continuing towards it they are. The brain gets locked into loops under stress you were going to grab it, stress interrupts the odlaloop and auto pilot takes over. But this could be a cultural thing. The comfort level around firearms.

I was teaching a course with several other instructors, kind of a how we do, how you do best practice sharing thing. After we were having beers and the 'How close you come' stories come out. This RCMP officer told a story about a pizza delivery kid he pulled over. Cold night northern Alberta and this beat up Toyota is weaving. Officer lights him up and the vehicle does the jerk to center, signals, pulls over and stops. He follows standard solo stop procedure and sees's the kid is delivering pizza and has a mangled map (dates the story) on top of the pizza box. Something is off and the kid is nervous so he asks the kid a couple of dummy questions to listen for slur. The kid's hand leaves the gearshift and starts moving toward the pizza boxes. The kid is stammering and saying "it's not real." The officer pulls his service revolver does the classic steep back 90 turn and tells the kid to put his hands on the wheel. The kid doesn't respond saying; "I got it for protection it is fake it ain't real here you take it" still reaching under the three stacked pizza boxes. The officer is yelling at the kid at the top of his voice; "Put your f#$%% hands on the wheel or I am going to shoot you in the face!!" From under the boxes the officer sees the grip of a 1911, guard safety, checkered slide, and the kid is not responding to verbal commands. The kid is looking right at him, eyes wide scared stupid, and so the officer takes a quick step forward and poked him in the eye with the barrel of his revolver. The kid let go of the gun and brought his hands to his eyes. The officer dragged him out of the car, cuffed him and tossed him in the back of the PC before tossing his lunch in the ditch. When he told the story I could see the stress reline this veteran officers face. He said of all his encounters, and he had a few, that was the worst. He said the kid cried for like an hour, till his distraught parents arrived to pick him up. When they were there, and the kid knew he was going home without charges, he said he asked the kid if he remembered him ordering him to put his hands on the wheel? The kid said no. The brain is a funny thing under stress.
By all means keep your guns. I'd never advocate against another persons intelligent decision, to carry, and it is obvious you're an intelligent guy. My Nephew lives in California and he always carries, usually two, when we go out to the desert. He likes teasing his polite, hippie, liberal, lethal Uncle as he is fond of describing me to his friends. I just smile and say; "if I need a gun, I'll use yours"
 
Scott, a very well written and realistic comment. One of the best I have read. I'm also a long range shooter, great fun and a good way to stay out of trouble. Our local range is maxed out at 1250 yards, but still challenging.

I've carried for years, patting my holster is just before I pat my wallet to check if I forgot anything.

Close quarters combat is not taught at most ranges, the concentration there is weapon familiarity and basic stances, grips and sight alignment.

Since returning from Vietnam I have not had to fire my weapon in anger and since retiring from the Marines I have not so much as needed to brandish a weapon. My thought process is if I have to point a weapon I intend to fire. The old saying "that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by six" comes into play.

I have 6 children, all have their carry permits, one of my sons spent a while in both Iraq and Afghanistan so he too has seen what a weapon can do. Not the sanitized version seen on Television. I have tried to show all how to shoot at close range at an active target. Not just a paper silhouette 25 feet away. Hopefully they will never need to do it.

The OP is asking about the need for a weapon, I don't think an untrained person should rely on a tool that needs a lot of practice and a certain mindset to use correctly.

My question was, and still is, if you have a firearm are you capable of taking a life?
 
get yourself a hi-point and get some sideways sights on it. part of owning a gun is looking badass holding it sideways. Be sure to post lots of pics holding it in one hand and a wad of $20's in the other.
 
Canadians and weaponry. 

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