Homelessness [split from Leadville and Salida Ranger Districts]

[RonDean]

There are many more thoughtful and intelligent ideas here than I ever see from either our politicians or our news reporters. I still have to argue against the ideas that blame our problems on corruption, or conspiracies, or things of that nature. I don't believe the causes are secret at all. They are baked into our system. And it's called M-O-N-E-Y rules. The politicians need cash, and a lot of it, to get elected and stay in office. John McCain was a stanch conservative but recognized we needed (and still do) meaningful campaign finance reform. If we had it, maybe the politicians would pay more attention to voters and less to financiers. And what do the big money folks care about? Making more money! So, what laws get passed? Not hard to answer that one.

I think we need to start questioning our assumptions. Government handouts? I am not sure what they are. I once lived in senior government subsidized housing. I left because I wanted to travel and because if I made any extra money I had to leave anyway. Was that a handout? I served in the military, I paid a lifetime of taxes, and I followed all the rules. I think I paid it forward and it was NOT a handout. The roads, the buildings, the dams, the rails, the entire infrastructure our economy depends on were built by us or our parents and grandparents. If repaying today's generation for the work prior generations did is a handout, I'm OK with that. Further, I would suggest that although it might put the folks that monitor eligibility out of work or some people might benefit more than others, we would still save money just by providing EVERYONE decent shelter-food-medicine. Anything beyond that, we can work for.

To stay on topic, I don't think that having a place to live should cost more than so many people today can afford to pay. Something here stinks. But, those same people that pay off our lawmakers make more money keeping things the way they are. Sure, more people are living under blue tarps or always looking for new places to park, but that doesn't concern the people that (to use the more accurate phrase) BRIBE our politicians to pass laws they like. Until that changes, IMO nothing else will.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Actually, it has quite a lot to back it up - the full faith and credit of the largest economic engine the world has ever seen. There is literally no earthly substance, which is both sufficiently common and sufficiently rare, that can "back" US currency, let alone the world's.

Money is an entirely made-up thing anyway, it only has value in the eye of its beholder(s). It's ALL monopoly money.

In a balanced economic system scrip (money) is equal to economic output; it is more convenient than bartering.
The problem comes when a government prints more money than the economic output can support. That is when inflation kicks in.

.....
OK. Let go there. For the last 6 years running, Finland has been the happiest country in the world.

How do they define 'happy'? These 'studies' are designed to provide a political point.
The happiest (joyful, content) people I have met were in Guatemala; no government services, some living on not much more than $1/day, some sleeping under a lean to. Some of the most unhappy people I know make 6 figures.

..... they actually tax their churches (which is a huge loss of revenue here) .....

Not true: the Finish government taxes members of the national churches (Lutheran and Orthodox) 1-2% and that money is used to support the those churches.

..... How about homelessness? Finland was an early adopter of "Housing First" policies .....

One cannot graft a small piece of a culture without the supporting pieces and expect it to work:
- the Fins have a very strong work ethic; those who can work and don't are looked down on.
- Finland has very strict drug laws and they are strictly enforced.

 

[RonDean]

I don't really want to see this thread become just a partisan argument, so I'll keep my more partisan opinions to myself. I was raised in a family that fought for the welfare of the working class as far back as any of them could remember. My grandmother could tell me about children working long hard hours and adults working till they dropped. Union busting and a lack or codified worker rights (that we are allowing to return today) is causing wages that are not keeping up with the cost of living. Especially in housing. The American Dream of home ownership has already morphed into a nation of renters, and now we can't afford that either. Over the past generation, I have seen the expectation of a better future change to something far darker. Homelessness is a blight that is just getting worse and is directly caused by the unfair labor practices that fill the coffers of the much fewer gentry.

Spiff, and a lot of other folks here, are not wrong on some of the particulars. But, perhaps are losing sight of the bigger picture. It hasn't always been this bad in my lifetime and I think it doesn't have to be this bad. We could debate the exact details of possible remedies, but should be able to agree that what we have is not working very well for most of us.

 

[bullfrog !]

There will always be people that “play” the system to receive more benefits than they are allowed but under the poor system we have they probably need it to survive. We need to realize we need to do more than just help people “get by” or maintain the little they hope to keep. There needs to be opportunities they can visualize will take them to self sufficiency. A path, counseling, education and aid that if they do the work will guarantee them a better life. God bless the working poor, those with huge student loans, medical debts and rent if they can afford it as they are still willing to keep trying to make life in America work. Many young people who are smart and healthy enough where I came from and my grandchildren today are still doing what I did and join the military in order to get food, housing, healthcare and education. Trying to get a foothold for their future. We need a similar system for those that can’t qualify or survive the military.

 

[WanderingRose]

Lots of good ideas for reform here, but the truth is there are generational issues with poverty that will take generations to help people out of.

And some won’t want to be helped, raised to take what they can rather than strive to fully care for themselves.

Some for whatever reason won’t allow themselves to be helped, and need to be cared for where they are.

I bristle a bit at the judgments on those at the bottom rungs who should just be able to pull themselves into better lives, better income, adequate savings to sustain themselves during difficult times and for support when they can no longer work.

It is also easier to pull yourself out of poverty when you have fallen into it, rather then when it is all you have ever known, and refusing the many in order to wean out the few is not the answer.

A country as wealthy as ours should provide for basic needs, including affordable housing, without trying to discern who among those could make more money if they just tried harder, changed their attitude, outlook, whatever.

It’s just not that simple, no switch to flip, no overnight sensation, no lightbulb moment.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

There are many more thoughtful and intelligent ideas here than I ever see from either our politicians or our news reporters. I still have to argue against the ideas that blame our problems on corruption, or conspiracies, or things of that nature. I don't believe the causes are secret at all. They are baked into our system. And it's called M-O-N-E-Y rules. The politicians need cash, and a lot of it, to get elected and stay in office. John McCain was a stanch conservative but recognized we needed (and still do) meaningful campaign finance reform.

No matter what economic system you have you need a medium of exchange (money) and it rules. You need it to get thing you cannot produce for yourself. The only other options are barter and theft.

There is no such thing as 'meaningful campaign finance reform' unless you are willing to gut the first amendment. What we need to do is stop making it lucrative to be elected to office (good luck with that).

..... we would still save money just by providing EVERYONE decent shelter-food-medicine

There is an ancient Masai(?) saying: "The community goat starves" (i.e. everyone wants the milk, no one want to get it feed). If all my food/shelter/medical care is provided, why work?

..... Spiff, and a lot of other folks here, are not wrong on some of the particulars. But, perhaps are losing sight of the bigger picture. It hasn't always been this bad in my lifetime and I think it doesn't have to be this bad. We could debate the exact details of possible remedies, but should be able to agree that what we have is not working very well for most of us.

I haven't lost site of the 'bigger picture', I was just limiting my arguments to homelessness.

IMHO we are talking about how big a bucket we need to bail out the boat. Nobody is talking about plugging the hole in the bottom of the boat. Since at least the 1980s our government in collusion with banks and multinational corporations have been systematically destroying the middle class. Until families can live comfortably on one salary we are going to have an ever expanding homeless problem and no amount of bailing is going to keep up.

Lots of good ideas for reform here, but the truth is there are generational issues with poverty that will take generations to help people out of .....

This is where our governments and schools have failed. Any child completing 14 years (pre - 12) of schooling should be able to be a productive member of our society (and any child on government assistance should be required to progress in school as a condition of benefits).

And some won’t want to be helped, raised to take what they can rather than strive to fully care for themselves.
Some for whatever reason won’t allow themselves to be helped, and need to be cared for where they are.

Why should I be forced to provide for someone who refuses to even try to provide for themselves?

I bristle a bit at the judgments on those at the bottom rungs who should just be able to pull themselves into better lives, better income, adequate savings to sustain themselves during difficult times and for support when they can no longer work .....

There are a lot of us who are willing and do help those who are willing to put in the hard work to get themselves out of a bad situation.

..... A country as wealthy as ours should provide for basic needs, including affordable housing, without trying to discern who among those could make more money if they just tried harder, changed their attitude, outlook, whatever ....

There is a fundamental law of human nature that is seldom violated: You get more of what you reward and less of what you punish.
If people get their needs met without having to do anything we will get more of them.
If you punish people for being a productive member of society (by demanding more of their labor) you are going to get less.

Anyone who has raised children knows that you need both reward and punishment to guide them to maturity:

All reward and you get a self centered, indulgent brat.​

All punishment and you get a resentful, unmotivated loser.​

 

[user 22017]

There are many more thoughtful and intelligent ideas here than I ever see from either our politicians or our news reporters. I still have to argue against the ideas that blame our problems on corruption, or conspiracies, or things of that nature. I don't believe the causes are secret at all. They are baked into our system. And it's called M-O-N-E-Y rules. The politicians need cash, and a lot of it, to get elected and stay in office. John McCain was a stanch conservative but recognized we needed (and still do) meaningful campaign finance reform. If we had it, maybe the politicians would pay more attention to voters and less to financiers. And what do the big money folks care about? Making more money! So, what laws get passed? Not hard to answer that one.

That's right. For others interested in campaign finance reform, some background:

"Finally, addressing the impacts of Citizens United requires building a movement in favor of campaign finance reform. There’s public support for such reforms. In recent polls, 94 percent of Americans blamed wealthy political donors for political dysfunction, and 77 percent of registered voters said that “reducing the influence of special interests and corruption in Washington” was either the “single most” or a “very important” factor in deciding their vote for Congress.

"Citizens United was a blow to democracy — but it doesn’t have to be the final word. Politicians can listen to what the vast majority of the public wants, even if big donors don’t like it."

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/citizens-united-explained

 

[user 22017]

I think we need to start questioning our assumptions. Government handouts? I am not sure what they are.

And need to ask ourselves why the poor and middle class target each other with criticism regarding subsidies and welfare while ignoring the massive amounts of welfare (and tax breaks) that corporations receive. Not to mention the tax loopholes corporations and the wealthy enjoy. We need to support each other, in order to force change from our elected officials. We need to work together. Join grassroots organizations that pressure officials to answer to the majority of people. Support, initiate and/or join unions.

 

[user 22017]

For the last 6 years running, Finland has been the happiest country in the world. Although no country is all one economic "type", Finland does lean more toward socialism than the US and they have one of the the highest global tax rates. So...why is everybody so happy? I would submit it is because of what they get for their taxes. Their taxes pay for "tax funded" (as against the term "free") health care, education, and all the other basics they consider necessary. How do they manage this? They still have a strong manufacturing base, they actually tax their churches (which is a huge loss of revenue here), and so on... The list of intelligent things they do just goes on and on.

How about homelessness? Finland was an early adopter of "Housing First" policies. And Finland has seen decades of progress while we continue going in the opposite direction. Maybe it's time to take our collective heads out of the ground and ask the simple question of who is succeeding and how could we do it too?

I read an article in the New York Times last week about Finland's ranking. In it, they interviewed Finns who said they are happy because they understand when enough is enough. They don't need more and more money and clothing and cars. But also, because of their social safety net, their needs are met. Nobody goes without the basics.

That is part of the reason for their success in education. They continue to rank number one in the world for education. In the '70's (iirc) they realized their education system was awful so they scrapped it and started over. They eliminated all testing. And every hour the kids and teachers must take a 15 minute break. Recess is longer than ours and held outdoors no matter the weather. Think they have 2-3 recess periods a day. Teachers must have a Masters and they are paid very well. There is a waiting list to become a teacher. The schools ensure that all needs are met at home: food, shelter, etc.

Excerpt from the New York Times:

While people praised Finland’s strong social safety net and spoke glowingly of the psychological benefits of nature and the personal joys of sports or music, they also talked about guilt, anxiety and loneliness. Rather than “happy,” they were more likely to characterise Finns as “quite gloomy,” “a little moody” or not given to unnecessary smiling.

It turns out even the happiest people in the world aren’t that happy. But they are something more like content.

Finns derive satisfaction from leading sustainable lives and perceive financial success as being able to identify and meet basic needs, said Arto O. Salonen, a professor at the University of Eastern Finland who has researched well-being in Finnish society. “In other words,” he wrote in an email, “when you know what is enough, you are happy.” <snip>

“‘Happiness’ — sometimes it’s a light word and used like it’s only a smile on a face,” said Teemu Kiiski, the CEO of Finnish Design Shop. “But I think that this Nordic happiness is something more foundational.”

The high quality of life in Finland is deeply rooted in the nation’s welfare system, said Kiiski, 47, who lives in Turku. “It makes people feel safe and secure to not be left out of society.”

More:

https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/othe...ness-knowing-when-you-have-enough/ar-AA19E0Fx

 

[WanderingRose]

Why should I be forced to provide for someone who refuses to even try to provide for themselves?

We’re talking about housing here, right? Homelessness?

Those who are struggling desperately just to meet basic needs don’t have the emotional resources to focus on long term goals, all of their focus, energy and attention being taken up just in surviving.

Basic needs, first.

 

[Morgana]

Why should I be forced to provide for someone who refuses to even try to provide for themselves?

You're going to get ripped off. You're getting ripped off right now. (In respect for keeping this apolitical, I won't say who I think is ripping you off the worst.) The only realistic goal (at least in our lifetimes) is to keep that to a minimum, and make it as fair (or "greatest good for the greatest number," or whatever your guiding value is) as possible.

Some people are gonna fall through the cracks. Some are gonna make out like bandits. We have to keep trying to ensure that as many as possible have what they need to make something of themselves.

I imagine the super-yachters would be happy to see us proles fighting over the scraps.
(Not that anybody's "fighting" here. Good discussion.)

 

[bullfrog !]

As said previously and in my opinion no one person lives in complete isolation in America from American society. If every member of that society doesn’t have their basic human needs meet every member of that society suffers in some form. Even our national reputation of making it possible for every person to have a chance of a better life is endangered by those that think they are totally independent of American society and no other person in this society had a hand in making possible what they have worked hard for to obtain, it just isn’t the case in my opinion. Never having lived outside the United States I am prone to think we are unique from other countries in that we have certain guaranteed rights which insure everyone has the opportunities they need to make this country and their lives better, I hope everyone realizes the price that has been paid for the benefit of “all” that are here in America. Often we have heard “leave no one behind” but seems the wealthy governing part of our society is doing just that and that needs to change in my opinion. Homelessness is just a result of a larger problem in this country.

 

[rruff]

Those who are struggling desperately just to meet basic needs don’t have the emotional resources to focus on long term goals, all of their focus, energy and attention being taken up just in surviving.

What are the "basic needs" and *why* exactly are they struggling to meet them? There are people all around me struggling to make ends meet. It isn't because they lack money at all... it's just how they live... repeatedly spending more than they earn so they constantly flirt with the edge of bankruptcy.

Having lived with homeless people, pretty much none of them had issues that would be solved with more money, or a home.

 

[WanderingRose]

I think you are painting with a very broad brush, rruff, and we are not going to agree here.

 

[bullfrog !]

Ruff how would you solve the problem? We learned a long time ago kids learn better in school if they are healthy and well feed. They need stability as in food and shelter. The homeless problem has become generational in many cases because nothing has been done that produces the results we need. Would you agree ideally with at least a few the first step would be to contact them, get them evaluated, get them safely sheltered in a situation that has been proven to be fairly successful by use of monitoring counselors and physicians to get their health/mental needs meet, then educate them if necessary or do on the job training so they can become productive citizens? Seems the alternative is to criminalize, condemn them to a harsh life they have little control over in one of many new jails that would have to be built and continue to allow the problem to escalate to a point it drags our economy down by spending all our national wealth on prisons. Solutions and positive results are what is needed, granted identifying the problems we can solve is the first step but continuing to repeat one of the problems with no solution recommended is just wasting time. Again how would you solve the problems you have seen?

 

[user 36441]

I don't really want to see this thread become just a partisan argument, so I'll keep my more partisan opinions to myself. I was raised in a family that fought for the welfare of the working class as far back as any of them could remember. My grandmother could tell me about children working long hard hours and adults working till they dropped. Union busting and a lack or codified worker rights (that we are allowing to return today) is causing wages that are not keeping up with the cost of living. Especially in housing. The American Dream of home ownership has already morphed into a nation of renters, and now we can't afford that either. Over the past generation, I have seen the expectation of a better future change to something far darker. Homelessness is a blight that is just getting worse and is directly caused by the unfair labor practices that fill the coffers of the much fewer gentry.

Spiff, and a lot of other folks here, are not wrong on some of the particulars. But, perhaps are losing sight of the bigger picture. It hasn't always been this bad in my lifetime and I think it doesn't have to be this bad. We could debate the exact details of possible remedies, but should be able to agree that what we have is not working very well for most of us.

 

[user 36441]

I wish we could reduce our population. IMHO the number and severity of our problems correlate directly to our numbers. Guess we'll find out.

 

[rruff]

We learned a long time ago kids learn better in school if they are healthy and well feed. They need stability as in food and shelter. The homeless problem has become generational in many cases because nothing has been done that produces the results we need.

Children are not homeless or lacking for food in this country, unless their parents are extremely lame (ie taking government money and not using it properly). The government benefits are very stable, but the issue is the parents. We don't have generational homelessness, but we do have generational living-off-welfare. That's caused by making the cost/benefit better for being below the poverty line vs having a job. And they learn how to work the system from their parents.

Also, homelessness has declined over the last 20 years. There is no sudden crisis... except the one caused by letting them squat on public and private land with impunity.

Would you agree ideally with at least a few the first step would be to contact them, get them evaluated, get them safely sheltered in a situation that has been proven to be fairly successful by use of monitoring counselors and physicians to get their health/mental needs meet, then educate them if necessary or do on the job training so they can become productive citizens? Seems the alternative is to criminalize, condemn them to a harsh life they have little control over in one of many new jails that would have to be built and continue to allow the problem to escalate to a point it drags our economy down by spending all our national wealth on prisons.

Sure. But I think there is a law that says they can't be forced to comply. What then? Seems sensible to have forced compliance for people who are breaking the law, and resident rehab for addicts and psych cases. Like I've said a million times it needs to be federally funded, not locally funded... because it is not a local responsibility.

Solutions and positive results are what is needed, granted identifying the problems we can solve is the first step but continuing to repeat one of the problems with no solution recommended is just wasting time. Again how would you solve the problems you have seen?

I just keep repeating myself. There are pretty simple solutions for all of it. If you find an item wasn't addressed in my many previous posts I'd be happy to discuss it.

Far more significant than homelessness, and not really related... is the immense income and wealth disparity that has occurred over the last 45 years, and the related consequences. It's easy to "solve" (the way we did it before, or all the other developed countries are doing it now), but the oligarchs like things the way they are (they changed policies to make it happen in the first place), and the public is too illogical/irrational (stupid?) and too easily swayed by propaganda to be any threat. Divide and conquer.

 

[RonDean]

This reminds me of a conversation I had friend back when the Clintons were pushing for universal Health Care. My friend was more concerned that some people might get more than they "deserved" rather than we, as a society, might get a better overall outcome for less money. My friend, BTW, was a highly successful man living in southern Ca. overlooking the pacific ocean. Yes, he worked for what he had, but he also came from a wealthy family that fianced his education and his business. I don't think he could relate to the struggles of the less affluent. On housing, it's not that different.

Take a drive anywhere outside the city and you will see more undeveloped or underutilized land than we know what to do with. The cows out there grazing wouldn't miss the few acres our homeless citizens might take up. In some cities (like Detroit) we have block after block of falling down abandoned homes. Tearing those building down and allowing some kind of habitation would probably be an improvement for everyone involved. We all know what homelessness looks like, so I won't bother describing it. They stay where they are because that is the only source of necessities available to them. Should they pitch a tent or park an RVs and homestead any unoccupied land they can find, like the folks that actually populated much of this country?

NIMBY attitudes keep us from building low cost multiple family buildings where they are needed because it might impact the value of the Mc Mansions built nearby. Or approving more inexpensive mobile dwelling spaces. I think more builders would build lower cost, and therefore lower rent, buildings if the rules in place allowed them the same profit. Planing and zoning policies and financial requirements do not match actual needs - unless it is the needs of the established and successful folks fighting against any meaningful change. As a last ditch, how about we tie minimum wages to the cost of living in any given area?

It is easier to complain and point at the failings of other people than for each of us, and society as a whole, to ask how much we might own of a problem. The irony of it is, it usually costs more money and pain to bandage and monitor a wound (actual or social) than it would have cost to fix the cause in the first place.

 

[RonDean]

Continued: I just saw Rruff's comment about homelessness declining. It depends on who you ask. The most recent HUD numbers I saw said: Homelessness among single individuals increased by 3.1%. The number of chronically homeless individuals (individuals with disabilities experiencing homelessness for long periods of time) increased by 16% between 2020 and 2022.Dec 19, 2022. Other sources agreed with RRuff.

The devil is in the details. What did it cost to accomplish some measure of improvement in selected areas and segments of the population? How and who are they counting? Did they lift up every tarp and open every RV and examine every other non-standard living arrangement and count the bodies? Do those numbers account for people living in cars? etc. - etc.

What I know for sure is what I see in any downtown area and how the dollars add up - or in most cases - don't add up. I would refer you to https://www.habitat.org/costofhome/what-is-housing-affordability. The chart showing home prices and rent vs. household income says it all.