Homelessness [split from Leadville and Salida Ranger Districts]

[RonDean]

Rruff asked: "Does that seem fair to you?" Nope.

But there are so many things I see in our society that are so much more unfair, asking it on this subject is way down my list. Nor do I blame anyone for not wanting homelessness folks in their neighborhood or camped out in front of their business. etc. etc. Homelessness sucks almost as much for those living around it as it does for those having to live it.

But fighting against anything that might help lower housing costs is not the way to a cure. Nor are all the difficulties placed in front of someone asking for help. The tiny homes on expensive land may have a few issues, but it's a start. Just offering dormitory living for single, petless people after first demanding they solve their personal problems first is obviously not working. Just maybe, showing more compassion and offering decent housing first would help people deal with substance addictions.

From: https://nlihc.org/sites/default/files/Housing-First-Research.pdf
The CPSTF recommendation - based on evidence from a systematic review of 26 studies, - found that Housing First programs decrease homelessness, increase housing stability, and improve quality of life for people experiencing homelessness.

I'll take that. It would also solve a lot of problems for everyone not homeless but impacted by it.

 

[Frood]

Around here a high school diploma and a little initiative will get you an apprenticeship in one of the trades. That will be about $25/hr starting with no experience, training to qualify for advancement, union membership and benefits. They cannot get enough takers.

Where is "here"? Wish I'd know about all of these in-demand jobs when I was younger since just about every position I've ever held felt more like compensated punishment rather than employment.

 

[rruff]

Rruff asked: "Does that seem fair to you?" Nope.
But there are so many things I see in our society that are so much more unfair, asking it on this subject is way down my list.

Fairness is an important criteria; if you fail that (miserably in this case) then you don't have a solution. Rather you just added more corruption to society... and division and antagonism. Besides being a very expensive undeserved benefit, these tiny-house camps right near the beach are still detrimental to people who have homes and apartments there.

What's wrong with having camps of that type on cheap land? Are you worried they won't want to go because it isn't as nice as hanging out at the beach in CA? Couldn't they be required to go if they are repeat offenders of squatting on public and private land? Climate is an issue in much of the US, but they could even have seasonal locations... there's loads of open desert in southern AZ and CA that is perfect for about half the year, and then they could move to other spots in the summer. People who want to stay in one spot and have a year round community and job, can do that also. And make these open to everybody; you don't need to be a card carrying homeless person to qualify.

Federally funded... locally managed.

 

[rruff]

Where is "here"? Wish I'd know about all of these in-demand jobs when I was younger since just about every position I've ever held felt more like compensated punishment rather than employment.

I can't speak for Spaceman Spiff, but I have a family friend who is well paid as an apprentice electrician in Fort Collins, basically paid to go to school. He'll make good union wages when he gets done with training. I've seen ads for similar here in NM also.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Where is "here"? ..... just about every position I've ever held felt more like compensated punishment rather than employment.

Minneapolis/St. Paul area.
Neighbor started this way. 30 years later he is a master electrician taking home about $60K.

Nobody starts out on top. After 7 years of college/med school you don't get to do heart surgery, your a new resident stuck with all the sh.it shifts and jobs. Everyone starts at the bottom.

 

[bullfrog !]

There again if you take a look at transportation and housing costs it would be difficult in many areas to live on an apprenticeship, even single but with a wife and a kid or two probably not possible, in my opinion as many trades require you buy your own tools and equipment, which are not cheap. Years ago starting out as a mechanic the majority of my paycheck went to buy tools, it took my wife and I both working multiple jobs, fortunately the kids didn’t start coming until I was established working two full time and one part time job while going to college full time. I lived 6 days a week on maybe 4 hours sleep every 24 hours and usually got one good nights sleep a week for two and a half years. I went to the cheapest state college I could find and managed to pay off the small student loans within 5 years of graduating, that isn’t possible I don’t believe to do today.

 

[Morgana]

It's one thing to point to a friend, or a family down the street, and say what their lives look like from the outside.
It would be quite another (and I don't think we've seen it yet) for a low-income, or formerly low-income, forum member to say "yes, I went that route and it was that easy/straightforward/ensured."
There's a reason for sayings like "many a slip twixt the cup and the lip" and "don't compare your insides to their outsides." And a reason "anecdotal evidence" -- one person's story, or two, or 200 -- is not considered conclusive. People seem to be leaping some pretty tall buildings in a single bound while trying to connect the dots here.

I worked one full-time swing-shift job and studied part-time to finish college, and I was perpetually overwhelmed. I don't know how Bullfrog and others like him did what they did. My hat is off.

 

[ardentmouse]

I read an article in the New York Times last week about Finland's ranking. In it, they interviewed Finns who said they are happy because they understand when enough is enough. They don't need more and more money and clothing and cars. But also, because of their social safety net, their needs are met. Nobody goes without the basics.

That is part of the reason for their success in education. They continue to rank number one in the world for education. In the '70's (iirc) they realized their education system was awful so they scrapped it and started over. They eliminated all testing. And every hour the kids and teachers must take a 15 minute break. Recess is longer than ours and held outdoors no matter the weather. Think they have 2-3 recess periods a day. Teachers must have a Masters and they are paid very well. There is a waiting list to become a teacher. The schools ensure that all needs are met at home: food, shelter, etc.

Excerpt from the New York Times:

While people praised Finland’s strong social safety net and spoke glowingly of the psychological benefits of nature and the personal joys of sports or music, they also talked about guilt, anxiety and loneliness. Rather than “happy,” they were more likely to characterise Finns as “quite gloomy,” “a little moody” or not given to unnecessary smiling.

It turns out even the happiest people in the world aren’t that happy. But they are something more like content.

Finns derive satisfaction from leading sustainable lives and perceive financial success as being able to identify and meet basic needs, said Arto O. Salonen, a professor at the University of Eastern Finland who has researched well-being in Finnish society. “In other words,” he wrote in an email, “when you know what is enough, you are happy.” <snip>

“‘Happiness’ — sometimes it’s a light word and used like it’s only a smile on a face,” said Teemu Kiiski, the CEO of Finnish Design Shop. “But I think that this Nordic happiness is something more foundational.”

The high quality of life in Finland is deeply rooted in the nation’s welfare system, said Kiiski, 47, who lives in Turku. “It makes people feel safe and secure to not be left out of society.”

More:

https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/othe...ness-knowing-when-you-have-enough/ar-AA19E0Fx

Why Bhutan Is the Happiest Developing Nation on Earth​

https://www.realclearpolicy.com/art...ppiest_developing_nation_on_earth_893313.html
The first pillar of Bhutan’s commitment to happiness is equitable and sustainable socioeconomic development. Bhutan considers the material well-being of every citizen as a fundamental right. Every citizen has access to clothing, housing, education, and healthcare, as well as legal protections for speech, private property, voting rights, and equal justice under law. No one is left behind.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

.....
Around here a high school diploma and a little initiative will get you an apprenticeship in one of the trades. That will be about $25/hr starting with no experience, training to qualify for advancement, union membership and benefits. They cannot get enough takers.

I stand corrected. Talked to my neighbor last night: apprentice electrician = $20.19/hr. That is ~$3500/ month full time without overtime. Master electrician makes $67,000.

 

[Frood]

I can't speak for Spaceman Spiff, but I have a family friend who is well paid as an apprentice electrician in Fort Collins, basically paid to go to school. He'll make good union wages when he gets done with training. I've seen ads for similar here in NM also.

Things I wish I'd known 30 years ago... Got a degree then worked whatever job I could get to make ends meet since I couldn't get into any career type positions. At one point I was substitute teaching, night time patrolling a chicken egg ranch for egg thieves, and bussing tables all at the same time. This was early days of the internet so mainly it was filling out 20+ paper applications on-site each week.

 

[rruff]

It would be quite another (and I don't think we've seen it yet) for a low-income, or formerly low-income, forum member to say "yes, I went that route and it was that easy/straightforward/ensured."

I've lived about half my life below the poverty line, most of that way below. And this was when benefits were a lot less than now for a guy with no dependents (I got none). Retiring on my <$1,000/mo SS check at 62 was the plan, but I got inheritance that changed that a bit.

I'm fine being poor. Letting my living standard drop to match my income isn't a problem for me. Even when I had a high income I rented a room in a house and banked as much as I could. I don't care about having nice stuff, and I don't mind living with poor people. I know that is rare, and it's really the greatest blessing... and I don't expect everyone to be like me.

I was reading some of the articles about Finland and this came up... "happiness is knowing when you have enough". This is diametrically opposed to the US attitude that we are all infected with, which is telling us that MORE! is always the answer to "how much do you need?". Scandinavian countries, and frankly most developed countries are structured so that a burger flipper doesn't live much differently than a rocket surgeon. Wages are compressed and income taxes are high, social benefits are high (including great benefits for parents), and they have lots of vacation and holiday time. Financially everyone is in the same boat and there just isn't much to worry about. This attitude is fostered and supported throughout the system.

Another thing about Finland... they are actually under threat from Russia, who considers that part of their historical territory... kinda like Ukraine. The USSR tried to take over Finland in WW2 and failed. Yet, they don't seem to worry about it too much. They've made preparations for it, and just get on with life.

It blew my mind 35 years ago when I went to a conference and had dinner with a scientist from Sweden. I really wanted to know what it was like to live there, so I asked a lot of questions about it. One thing he said that really struck me was "if I didn't enjoy going to work, I wouldn't go. It's like that for everyone". What a different attitude! To expect that work would be enjoyable... actually feel entitled to an enjoyable work environment. And so sane! Most of us spend a very large chunk our life when we are in our prime, working a job of some kind. If work isn't enjoyable, it's a real burden on life in general.

I've worked both high class and low class jobs in the US and there was quite a difference in how employees were treated, but I wouldn't say there was an expectation of enjoyment at any. Even at the high end they expected long unpaid hours and scrambling and competition for recognition and accomplishment, making it stressful. At the low end, management treated employees like crap... for no good reason. It seems like managers are expected to be annoying slave drivers with a whip... but we actually worked much better when they just left us alone. People like to do a good job. It was particularly "fun" on busy nights when everyone from the cooks, dishwashers, waiters, bussers, and hosts were at full tilt, working like a well oiled machine. No whip necessary.

 

[rruff]

Things I wish I'd known 30 years ago...

The insane and idiotic student loan debacle... a lot of people got rich off that one, but not the students. Endless propaganda about how getting a college degree was absolutely necessary... and look, you can just put it on credit for the next 60 years! It's still going on, but it's a harder sell now.

When I was in school in the late 70s and early 80s the most prestigious state university had tuition of $750/semester. That's about $3k in today's money but still... reasonable. No need to mortgage the rest of your life. The real cost of tuition has gone up 3x on average.

 

[bullfrog !]

I went to vocational school while in high school a couple of years. I didn’t go to college until it was required of me to get a teaching certificate. While in college and working weekends for the National Fish and Wildlife Agency I found out a degree opened more opportunities for better employment especially with the government. Many government jobs require you live on site in one of their rental houses as they are in remote locations. Upon retirement many end up living in RV’s as housing costs are way too high.

 

[Frood]

The insane and idiotic student loan debacle... a lot of people got rich off that one, but not the students. Endless propaganda about how getting a college degree was absolutely necessary... and look, you can just put it on credit for the next 60 years! It's still going on, but it's a harder sell now.

When I was in school in the late 70s and early 80s the most prestigious state university had tuition of $750/semester. That's about $3k in today's money but still... reasonable. No need to mortgage the rest of your life. The real cost of tuition has gone up 3x on average.

Actually here in CA most state schools' tuitions are quite reasonable if the student can live at home. When you need student loans to cover rent and staying alive while attending school it gets pricey. Quick google search puts UC school at about $16k/year tuition and Cal State school at about $7k/year. Working 20 hrs/week at minimum wage (in CA) would easily cover tuition and books for a Cal state school. Would be a bit short if you were paying for a UC school that way though (earnings come out to about $14k/year before taxes). If you can get a part-time job that pays above minimum wage (eg Del Taco in Moreno Valley starts employees at $16/hr based on the posted "Now Hiring" sign) then you have more cushion or less hours needed.

 

[Sky]

There are so many different pieces to this problem that there can't possibly be a one-size-fits-all solution. People working three minimum-wage jobs and living in their car. People who are not fit to take care of themselves and may never be. People who crawled into a bottle and couldn't or wouldn't crawl out (yet). Mothers who had to get their kids out of a violent home (and God bless them for putting their children first). Gay kids whose parents threw them out. Veterans who did what WE asked them to and then got hung out to dry. People who got sick in a country cursed with a predatory medical billing system. And, sure, assorted slobs and asshats (including, apparently, quite a few slobs and asshats impersonating veterans). "I live near a homeless encampment" isn't much of a claim to expertise, and blaming it all on one political party isn't much of a solution.

Given how polarized we are, I don't see how we'll ever agree on a solution that's complex and flexible enough to deal with this kaleidoscope of problems. I sure hope we come to our senses somehow. With just a few bits of bad luck, the same thing could happen to almost any of us.

Amen ~ rezpect truth ~ !

 

[Morgana]

A good CNN op-ed about "Houston's homelessness breakthrough" here.

 

[RonDean]

A good CNN op-ed about "Houston's homelessness breakthrough" here.

Thanks for sharing this co-ed. I love that they have made progress by using fact based solutions and leaving the politics behind.

 

[Morgana]

Hey, I don't know if this would be useful to anyone, but I saw it mentioned in a recent NYT article on seniors and poverty --
https://benefitscheckup.org
It's a lookup tool created by the National Council on Aging for "older adults and people with disabilities" to see what benefits you might be eligible for in your area.
I can't find the article again now to double-check, but I think it said that there are quite a few seniors living in/near poverty who are not taking advantage of all the benefits available to them.
If you fit the senior or disabled definition, and you're feeling like you could use a hand up, might be worth a check.

 

[Gr8ful]

10 top homeless states in the US, Sad but not as bad as I thought

 

[BelgianPup]

10 top homeless states in the US, Sad but not as bad as I thought

There's a huge difference between true homelessness and alcohol/drug addiction... I wish they would separate it.