Homelessness [split from Leadville and Salida Ranger Districts]

[rruff]

The chart showing home prices and rent vs. household income says it all.

When there is a divergence between the profits and worker income, the rich inflate assets with their excess cash. They can't invest in productive capital because sales are limited by consumer's ability to buy. For a long time they were able to keep the ball rolling with easy credit, more women entering the workforce, and escalating fiscal spending... but these have run their course.

The big asset getting inflated is RE. It affects not only the price of housing, but costs for every business that needs land... which is most of them. So it's a double whammy for people experiencing declining real wages and increased real costs.

Higher wages, higher taxes, and higher public benefits would take care of our economic ills. Ironically during our most successful period and easily the best period for the middle class, the first two were accomplished with high union involvement and high marginal tax rates. Our unions in the US were terribly inefficient and antagonistic compared to the most in the world, but we prospered anyway!

NIMBY attitudes keep us from building low cost multiple family buildings where they are needed because it might impact the value of the Mc Mansions built nearby. Or approving more inexpensive mobile dwelling spaces. I think more builders would build lower cost, and therefore lower rent, buildings if the rules in place allowed them the same profit. Planing and zoning policies and financial requirements do not match actual needs - unless it is the needs of the established and successful folks fighting against any meaningful change.

This is one of those things that is best left to the market. If people vote to keep out apartment complexes, businesses will not be able to hire burger flippers and toilet cleaners unless they pay extremely high wages... which will ultimately be paid by the same people voting against apartments. Or these businesses will disappear and the people there will have to do without those services... which will not help their property values. If you "solve" the "problem" with federally funded low income housing then you reward this bad behavior, because the cost gets diverted to taxpayers from somewhere else. Besides that you add a big layer of government bureaucracy expense, along with the unfairness of having qualifications for housing based on income.

I'm really disgusted by the rich people who keep touting the free market when it suits their bank account, but want government help in these situations. And they pretend it's "for the poor"... and people are dumb enough to believe it!

There is a point at which the cost of housing and wages will meet an equatable level in local situations. Economic issues are much easier and fairly dealt with on a macro level.

 

[bullfrog !]

A quick google search showed the most recent stats in which Kentucky had the second most homeless children in the country, so my viewpoint probably isn’t far off as I taught school there between 1980 and 1990. No programs in Kentucky that I know of that are readily accessible to those that need them come close to paying rent and utilities not to mention more than one meal a day which is usually a school lunch. They might get breakfast if an adult is with them and responsible enough to get them to school early. Poverty is generational in Kentucky but homelessness has exploded with newer higher rents in my opinion. Not every homeless person is not trying to do better, in fact most are but poor health and lack of education hinder many from getting out of the cycle of debt at least where I came from. Having a student that lived and supported five brothers and sisters not wanting to have their family split up living in a home built temporary shack without government aid succeed in life is one of the highlights of my teaching career. Just wish we had government aid that was sufficient enough help those that are struggling. Unfortunately those that succeed are about 5 out of 100 the rest usually end up in jail and on drugs.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Those who are struggling desperately just to meet basic needs don’t have the emotional resources to focus on long term goals, all of their focus, energy and attention being taken up just in surviving.

With all the federal government programs for nutrition, health, medical care, et.al. nobody should be desperate. If there is any blame for this it is the federal government that makes it so hard to navigate all the different agencies and programs with sometimes conflicting requirements.

..... "greatest good for the greatest number," or whatever your guiding value is .....
We have to keep trying to ensure that as many as possible have what they need to make something of themselves .....

If we want the "greatest good for the greatest number" we need to concentrate on finding as many Steve Jobs and Elon Musks as possible and training and supporting them. They are the ones whose efforts will create the most jobs and improve lives.

..... Even our national reputation of making it possible for every person to have a chance of a better life is endangered by those that think they are totally independent of American society and no other person in this society had a hand in making possible what they have worked hard for to obtain ..... we have heard “leave no one behind” ...... Homelessness is just a result of a larger problem in this country.

Over my adulthood I have been taxed over $200,000 to educate children that are not mine for at least 12 years. Some blew it off and are suffering the consequences of their decisions.

I agree that homeless is a result of other problems in our culture; I can name three:
- our schools are failing our children.
- we are destroying our middle class.
- our justice system is perverted.

 

[bullfrog !]

^^^you got all the problems right except states are in charge of their health insurance programs and education. Now solutions please, you gonna give Elon Musk the guy that is building a mega factory in China responsibility for creating jobs in this country? Ain’t no unions there! Again these problems affect you as noted paying taxes and not seeing the results you want, doing nothing doesn’t work so what do you propose we do?

 

[rruff]

A quick google search showed the most recent stats in which Kentucky had the second most homeless children in the country, so my viewpoint probably isn’t far off as I taught school there between 1980 and 1990. No programs in Kentucky that I know of that are readily accessible to those that need them come close to paying rent and utilities

I did some investigating, and I think you might have misread the chart (if we saw the same one) as KY was 9th worst, not 2nd... and NM where I live was actually worse than KY. That surprised me as the public benefits seem quite good here. The problem is that it takes time, sometimes years, to get the housing that you qualify for! Meanwhile they are in temporary housing of some kind and considered homeless. Every mom with young kids that I've known, in CA, OR, CO, and NM, has had a decent place to live provided by the state, and plenty of food, free healthcare, and spending money. But you sometimes have to wait in line for that housing.

Here my neighbor sometimes takes care of a "welfare mom's" kids. She has 4 of them, and they used to have a nice rental house, but it burned down in a wildfire about a year ago (along with a bunch of other houses). I heard she could have gotten a place somewhere else, but she wanted to stay here... and since obviously a lot of people lost homes there is a shortage. So her and the kids would be classified as homeless for the past year. They live in town though and the kids go to the same schools as before. They should be getting a new house this summer.

The mom is their biggest threat to stability IMO. She seems to care for them a lot... but she is also into drink and drugs and partying, and a new random dood every few weeks. The kids seem great though, and I hope they have good lives.

 

[bullfrog !]

Yep with no person to insure they get to bed, get fed and go to school many end up just as messed up as their parents. Drove a school bus for 4 and 5 year olds which required a parent or guardian be present when I dropped them off. More than once a cop released one of the family from handcuffs to receive the child rather that have to deal with Social Services. More than likely he will be in handcuffs in a few years. Not a good solution, not enough being done to change the kids future life chances. Had a little boy that on the way to Social Services ask me if I could take him on the bus “up the river” cause that’s where his parents told him they were going when they put him on the bus that morning. Like many jobs now days you can only do them so long before they get to you.

 

[WanderingRose]

With all the federal government programs for nutrition, health, medical care, et.al. nobody should be desperate. If there is any blame for this it is the federal government that makes it so hard to navigate all the different agencies and programs with sometimes conflicting requirements.

A lot of those on the very bottom rungs of our society, including many of the homeless…circling the drain, I call it…are the working poor, who have jobs but can’t pay for rent and meet other basic needs.

Income eligibility requirements for assistance are pretty strict, people may get some food stamps but if they get a small raise their stamps are cut accordingly, and the same with federally subsidized housing.

Every increase in income is met with a decrease in benefits, that is the reality, and I don’t know what the exact current guidelines are for getting a medical card in any state but you don’t just waltz in, say I have no health insurance and get a medical card for free care.

If they miss a day of work, because they or their child is sick, that is a day of lost pay, and becomes a financial emergency.

Same with a medical bill, a prescription, a vehicle breakdown, etc., god forbid something medically catastrophic that prevents them from working,

Lots of argument here about how things should be, if only this or that, but that isn’t how they are, and if you ain’t never been on that bottom rung you may not really have a clue what that reality is.

Meet basic needs first, and that stability underneath will allow most to improve their situation and even get on their feet.

IMHO.

 

[rruff]

Not a good solution, not enough being done to change the kids future life chances.

Births in the US are heavily skewed towards poverty (poor women have more kids). It's an unintended though obvious consequence of providing benefits based on income. Emotional instability, addictions, and poor intelligence trend in the same direction. Plus the changes that have occurred in the last 60 years with the deterioration of male jobs and salaries, escalating divorce, women working, etc, have resulted in a lot of single women with kids who tend to be poor. If they have more than one kid to take care of it makes little sense for them to work at all, since childcare is so expensive.

Many countries have done a better job of dealing with this. But you need to tax heavily and distribute the proceeds in an intelligent way... to even out the disparities and give everyone a good chance at life. Total taxation in the US is 27% while many European countries are over 40%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio

 

[bullfrog !]

Okay then higher taxes I would assume on those that benefit or profit from a larger work force and better affordable child care. Think we can get our representatives to introduce or support bills and laws to accomplish that or will we need to replace them with ones that will?

 

[Carla618]

Births in the US are heavily skewed towards poverty (poor women have more kids). It's an unintended though obvious consequence of providing benefits based on income. Emotional instability, addictions, and poor intelligence trend in the same direction.

Sources please. Poor intelligence (what IS that?) doesn't cause poverty. Poverty causes lower IQ:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/analysis-how-poverty-can-drive-down-intelligence

 

[rruff]

Sources please. Poor intelligence (what IS that?) doesn't cause poverty. Poverty causes lower IQ:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/
Surely you don't believe that there is nothing genetic about intelligence or susceptibility to addiction? Do also believe there is nothing genetic about height, athletic performance, personality? Look at some twin studies and see what you find... it's very shocking how much about us is genetic.

Per your link, pretty ridiculous argument. I grew up on a farm. Before and after harvest has nothing to do with poverty and wealth, rather it's working your butt off like crazy to get the job done, and then the relief when it's finished. Cell phones... is it surprising that texting while driving causes accidents? Why would it be stress related?

I worried about finances a lot less when I was poor than when I was rich, because there was a lot less to worry about! Financial stress comes from spending more than you make, which happens at any income level... and IME having lots of crap to deal with.

The homeless people I know have a simple life. A place to sleep and stay warm (easy to find), make the rounds of the free food handouts, spange for an hour to get money for booze/drugs, party, repeat. Not much stress... compared to a job, traffic, bills, family, etc... and all the junk that must be maintained.

 

[RonDean]

Yes our society, our education system, and so on, all have problems. A lot of the folks in economic hardship are also at least partly responsible for their own problems. But, so are many of the people at higher income levels. I can't dispute any of that. Poor people have more kids than rich people. I think that has pretty much always been true. Staying home and having sex is something everyone can afford, even if they can't afford any birth control better than the "rhythm method" supported by institutions that want more poor and uneducated people to fill the pews and work in minimum wage jobs.

Once again, I will point to Finland and other similar countries for enlightenment. If their population seems to be more industrious, maybe it is partly because they get good education through college or trade school. They all receive an education designed to provide them with the skills to be successful. Here, we provide a paid H.S. education, as if that will get them much more than a burger flipping job. And some of our schools are so underfunded as to have buckets collecting rain water, rats in the hallways, and kids just shoved through the system whether they are learning or not. At the same time, we have affluent school districts with the best of everything. IMO, the kids from the poor schools should sue the government for such inequality. I worked in the school system at both the middle and secondary level, and based on my observations, it isn't the teachers to blame. I could go on about all of that, but... maybe another time. A final thought though... Paying for a good education system isn't just for our own kids, it supports an economic system that we all benefit from.

Homelessness and housing insecurity is not a cause, it's a result of local, state, and national policies just as much as it is the fault of the people involved. We can't keep dumping people with a substandard education and unrealistic expectations into our current economic system and expect anything other than what we are getting. And that is just one of the problems we have. What's the old definition of insanity? Oh Yah... "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Until we are willing to learn from people getting the results we want, we will get what we have.

 

[Carla618]

Homelessness and housing insecurity is not a cause, it's a result of local, state, and national policies just as much as it is the fault of the people involved.

So true. And with national healthcare (single payer), there would be fewer issues all around. For teens through elderly. But our elected officials cater to corporate lobbyists. Pharmaceutical and otherwise. In a nutshell, our politicians are purchased.

 

[Carla618]

The homeless people I know have a simple life. A place to sleep and stay warm (easy to find), make the rounds of the free food handouts, spange for an hour to get money for booze/drugs, party, repeat. Not much stress... compared to a job, traffic, bills, family, etc... and all the junk that must be maintained.

I used to stereotype poor people, too. Until I became a single parent. Then I discovered how incredibly difficult life can be. The depression and stress from poverty takes a huge toll. Count your blessings

 

[bullfrog !]

I taught Auto Mechanics (4 hour classes) at a vocational school in Arkansas adjacent to a high school for high school students as well as prisoners from local jails and disadvantaged adults. It was basically a two year program. Second year students worked as they would in a dealership as a starting mechanic. The vocational school had a unique arrangement with the State Board of Education. The second year students under my supervision basically worked for free on customers cars, a flat fee plus parts marked up 30% was charged and paid to classroom expenses. Bookkeeping was a nightmare but my responsibility (I almost got fired over not charging a quarter for a washer one of my students misplaced) along with an accounting/secretary student aid. Most years we made enough to take students to Vocational Clubs Of America (VICA) competitions where we had several national champions.All graduating students had to be ASE Certified mechanics in at least 3 areas and within 2 years of graduating 66% had to be working in a certified garage as a mechanic, enrolled in college or enlisted in the military. If after 2 years the program failed to meet those requirements I would be fired and the program closed. Most classroom teachers at the high school got $15 at the beginning of the year for classroom supplies. I got nothing but by working with local auto supply stores as well as the Ford and Toyota dealerships and eventually corporate insurance/training division of Ford I got $120,000 in donations and this was in 1975 dollars. Working closely with dealerships and a few local garages we custom designed the curriculum to match skills and attitudes Dealerships and garages wanted to see in new employees. Often my students attended factory training sessions and schools. Since I couldn’t screen my students before they enrolled in my class although many dropped out prematurely we barely managed to meet a 70% placement. I often got in heated arguments with English and Math teachers when they sent failing students to my program. I often wished they had student placement requirements put on their programs! Bottom line was many hours after school with student tutors helping those that needed it, it didn’t hurt they were very attractive tutors, but you do what you need to do to get people to learn!

 

[Carla618]

Trapped in paradise: how we got the homeless situation (part 1)​

Trapped in Paradise 2: how the homeless can get off the street...

 

[bullfrog !]

I watched several videos and one estimate took a look at homelessness groups. They were doing these type projects to get as many people as possible off the streets as quickly as possible so they concentrated on what they estimated was about the 60% that were willing and anxious to get off the streets. This solved a large part of the problem by simply offering housing and counseling. The group that refused was estimated to be 10% to 15% mainly consisted of people with mental health or drug dependency issues that was impossible to work with because they considered it to be the issue of loosing their freedom until laws change.

 

[dhuff]

Trapped in Paradise 2: how the homeless can get off the street...

I was about to come post these very links, but Carla beat me to it . Well made and well worth watching if you're interested in this topic.

 

[rruff]

I used to stereotype poor people, too.

I had a distorted view of street homeless until I lived with them, hung out with them, and talked to them. The ones who are somewhere on the spectrum of functionality are actually doing fine. Content, peaceful, not trying to be something or trying to get something beyond very basic needs. They aren't struggling... or at least less than the average person.

Trapped in Paradise 2: how the homeless can get off the street...

It's a sweet deal if you can get the government to pay the cost so you can live in one of the most expensive places in the country. The land that one of those tiny houses sits on is easily worth over $100,000... maybe even $1,000,000. What about the people next door with several of them crammed into a tiny apartment and struggling to pay for it? Does that seem fair to you? How do you decide who gets the benefits and who doesn't?

I actually love the idea of communities like this with simple dwellings and shared facilities like showers, toilets, washing, etc. There's plenty of land that is zoned to allow it too, and not expensive. That wouldn't be in cities obviously, but could be near enough that people could take a bus or whatever to work or shop. But it wouldn't be in the nicest part of the country, and it wouldn't have jobs paying the highest wages in the country either.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

This reminds me of a conversation I had friend back when the Clintons were pushing for universal Health Care. My friend was more concerned that some people might get more than they "deserved" rather than we, as a society, might get a better overall outcome for less money. My friend, BTW, was a highly successful man living in southern Ca. overlooking the pacific ocean. Yes, he worked for what he had, but he also came from a wealthy family that fianced his education and his business. I don't think he could relate to the struggles of the less affluent. On housing, it's not that different.

Take a drive anywhere outside the city and you will see more undeveloped or underutilized land than we know what to do with......In some cities (like Detroit) we have block after block of falling down abandoned homes.....

Unfortunately, court decisions make it impossible to force someone to locate where they don't want to. Downtown is where their resources are (drug dealers, panhandling opportunities, petty theft, et.al.)

NIMBY attitudes keep us from building low cost multiple family buildings where they are needed because it might impact the value of the Mc Mansions built nearby.

It's more about personal and community safety. People see the sh.it show that is downtown San Francisco and say they don't want that anywhere around where their children play.

For middle class homeowners their home is their biggest asset. If you reduce its value they aint' happy.

^^^you got all the problems right except states are in charge of their health insurance programs and education. Now solutions please, you gonna give Elon Musk the guy that is building a mega factory in China responsibility for creating jobs in this country? Ain’t no unions there! Again these problems affect you as noted paying taxes and not seeing the results you want, doing nothing doesn’t work so what do you propose we do?

At last count Tesla has 11 factories in the US, 2 in Canada, and a number in Europe. Tesla is an international company. They want to be a major player in the EV market in the far east.
Plus, because of Western governments being asleep China owns the Lithium battery supply chain.

Once again, I will point to Finland and other similar countries for enlightenment. If their population seems to be more industrious, maybe it is partly because they get good education through college or trade school.

Finland still has vestiges of the protestant work ethic and they have strict drug laws that are strictly enforced.
I do like the European education model where students are evaluated for college or trade school and apprenticeships. No going to college for worthless degrees that qualify one for serving coffee at Starbucks.

..... Here, we provide a paid H.S. education, as if that will get them much more than a burger flipping job .....

Around here a high school diploma and a little initiative will get you an apprenticeship in one of the trades. That will be about $25/hr starting with no experience, training to qualify for advancement, union membership and benefits. They cannot get enough takers.