Help with my electrical design?

Van Living Forum

Help Support Van Living Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

CCSummers

New member
Joined
Apr 7, 2014
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Warning: I am a complete and utter amateur. I apologize in advance if this is a super annoying post. I very well might just be in over my head.

Summary:

  1. I am adding a second battery in my van to charge devices, power lamps, etc. (I will call the second battery the house battery from here on out.) I'm attempting to design a system where this house battery is charged off the starter battery.
  2. There must be a mechanism in place that prevents the house battery from draining the starter battery while the ignition is off and I am using power.
  3. To do this I plan on using a solenoid to make sure the house battery is only charging when the engine is on. This will also ensure that the house battery doesn't draw off the starter battery.
  4. I'll be using an inverter so I can use AC, and a circuit breaker of sorts so I don't harm the battery.

Diagram:

Here is a diagram of what I have so far:
I have also attached this diagram below.
While I did my best in making this diagram, I know it is hard to follow. I apologize.

Notes:

  1. What I plan to power initially: A lamp or two, my laptop charger (60W AC), and my phone charger.
  2. What I’d like to be able to power eventually (with help of added solar panels): A stereo system with a record (vinyl) player, a small fan or two and a hot plate. I’ve been told to forget about the hot plate because they run on an upwards of 1000W and are extremely inefficient. However I would like to be able to cook in my van without opening the windows as I’d like to do some stealth camping in cities.
  3. Inverter: As of right now I plan on using a 1500W inverter. This should be able to handle my biggest future load, if I choose to pursue it: the hotplate.
  4. Circuit Breaker: I’ve been told I should use a 150 Amp fuse with the correct fuse holder. (I don’t know if Circuit Breaker is the correct term for what I need.)
  5. Wiring Size: Based on the size of the inverter I’ve been told I should not go smaller than 2 AWG between the inverter, circuit breaker and house battery. I’ve also been told it would be best to use 0 AWG between batteries to “minimize voltage differential between the two batteries.” (I don’t know what this means.) I don’t know what gauge the green wire in the diagram is as it’s already wired. I assume this doesn’t matter. I also assume that the grounding wire should be the same gauge as the wire coming off the positive terminal.

Questions:

  1. The blue wire is my mystery wire. It would be there to turn the solenoid on and off when the alternator goes on and off.
    • What gauge should this wire be?
    • This wire needs to be hot when the alternator is running. How do I do this? Splice it into a wire attached to the alternator that is hot only when the engine is on? How would I find this? I have a 2003 Ford E150.
  2. Are the other wire gauges correct?
  3. The simplest question: how do I attach the wires to the batteries, the solenoid, the circuit breaker and the inverter? Especially wondering about this for places where there are two connections to one place, such as the positive terminal on the house battery. I have been told to use a heavy duty copper lug between the house battery, fuse and inverter.
  4. I was planning on purchasing an AGM Deep Cycle battery for the house battery, maybe around the 220 Ah range. Does it matter if the starter battery and house battery are completely different?
  5. I'd like to be able to monitor how many amp hours are left in the house battery so I don't go below 50% charge and damage the battery. What would be best to do this and where abouts in the wiring does it go? I’ve been told to attach a “voltage meter with a dial.” Where does this go? The same person also suggested getting an “auto shutoff” to stop the battery from giving off any power once the voltage meter gets to 50%. How would I go about doing this?
  6. Someone said that they “recommend running house side ground wires back to a single ground lug to avoid ground loops and separating the house and car systems as much as possible.” This confused me as I only have one ground coming from the house battery. What exactly does this mean?
  7. Am I making this completely overly complicated and there is actually a very simple answer for all of this?

To anyone who reads this or who takes the time out of their day to answer any of these questions or just generally help me out: thank you so much! :D
 

Attachments

  • Solenoid Diagram2.jpg
    Solenoid Diagram2.jpg
    70.7 KB · Views: 19
I'm going to extend a welcome and leave the answers to those who explain things better than I can.
There's several here who are pretty darn good at getting you hooked up the right way.

Hey SternWake....where you is??
 
Greetings!

Here are my observations:

Wire size between the two batteries should probably be about the same size as that green wire.

Your blue wire should go to your fuse box, find a fuse that is "live" when the ignition is on, and dead when the ignition is off.

Your fuse/circuit breaker should be whatever size the inverter docs call for, but 150 amps sounds absurdly high to me. It is rare to find anything, even in house wiring higher than 30 amps. I think most vehicles use 30 amps and under too, at least in the older ones.

Your circuit breaker and your inverter may need to be grounded.

Your inverter should have explicit directions for size of wires between the battery and the inverter. The gauges you are describing seem way too large to me. I think welding cable is only 4 gauge, which should be plenty.

Forget the idea of an electric hotplate, a small camp stove can be used carefully inside without ventilation if used for only a very short time, with windows cracked, it can double as a heater, which can be helpful sometimes even in the middle of the summer. With rain guards on your front windows, you can have your windows cracked, undetected, in any weather. You will find that you want that ventilation possibility.

You will need a carbon monoxide detector anyway, and that should keep you safe for indoor cooking.

I would forget the inverter, and get the car cords for your stuff, convert your vinyls to .MP3's and play them on your computer or a small 12v player. You may also be able to download your vinyls for free, already in a computer friendly format. Vinyls will get ruined in the heat of a vehicle in the summer. You can put many, many albums on a single USB flash drive.

You can get pretty much anything you might want in a 12v format, from electric blankets to a microwave, which is much more efficient than using an inverter.

The simpler your systems, the more reliable they are.

Cheers!

The CamperVan_Man
 

Attachments

  • battery_system.jpg
    battery_system.jpg
    56.6 KB · Views: 6
An inverter is handy at times, but I've found my 400W has been plenty for our occasional needs....we don't use heavy loads. !2V charging is the way to go.

The solenoid should be a continuous duty...there are 2 types, so don't get the wrong one.

Circuit breakers beat out fuses. Re-set it rather than fumbling for fuses.
30A is plenty.

Copper lugs...yes, for sure.

The AGM will do a good job as a house battery.
A Trimetric meter is good for monitoring your system. I think it can be set for low batt warning. (I just use a volt meter and my system has a built in alarm).

I'd forget the heavy draw stuff, like hot plates and use propane, as suggested above. Go with MP3 player of music on memory stick. I'd love to have my old record collection to put under the needle and pumped thru some mondo speakers, but glad they have been sold to someone who can care for them properly.

Check out this power sipping LED interior light...
http://www.amazon.com/Gold-Stars-F3...&qid=1396973095&sr=1-3&keywords=rv+led+lights

Renology makes a good, expandable solar kit (several here use them). Usually, I recommend buying their products on Amazon, but you can buy the same kit on eBay from Renology for about $30 less, maybe less if your offer is reasonable. Extra panels are way cheaper too.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eco-Solar-K...045?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item417d97f595

Hope I've been a little help filling in some of the basic stuff. Wish I was better explaining the tech end of it all. I know what works for us by experience and you sorta get a "feel" for your system after you live with it for a while.
 
Hello. Sorry for the late reply

I see you've been given some good advice already.

I've gone into many of these topics recently. Please peruse some of my posts in other electrical threads.

I will jump on the anti hot plate bandwagon. They are tremendous battery abusers.

Lets say that 1000 watts is continuous, and we will discount peukert, and inverter inefficiency and battery voltage drop under such a HUGE load.

volts x amps = watts
So 100 watts / 12.8 volts is 78.125 amps.

A 220 amp hour battery has 110 amps to give as one should not really drain them below 50% as a rule. So discounting the Peukert effect, and inverter efficiency, your healthy and fully charged battery( not likely) could power the hot plate at 100% duty cycle for a little over an hour and a half, before dropping to 50%

Now if we add 15% to the current for inverter efficiency, and do account for peukert, it is likely the low voltage alarm on the inverter will be sounding in about 45 minutes. So one or two hot plate meals, and your battery is at 50% and crying in a corner at the abuse you just subjected to. If it is not recharged quickly, and fully, it will get all petulant and decide it is not only a 175 amp hour capacity battery, then a 150, then a 120 and so on.

Please reconsider the hot plate idea. Also cooking inside with windows closed, even over electricity, will overwhelm you just with the cooking fumes and oil mist. COnsider foods which need no heat for city stealthing, and propane with the windows open partly at all other times

Now alternator recharging is not the magical panacea that most newbies consider it to be. While a well wired and capable alternator spinning fast can indeed make a lot of amps, once the battery reaches the 70% charged zone it will accept much less current. Once 80% is reached it will accept very little current, and that last 20% can take hours and hours of driving.

There is no way around this fact of recharging lead acid batteries. The last 20% takes hours no matter which charging source is used. Many will confuse surface charge( high battery voltage upon removal from a charging source) with actual battery state of charge. Most battery manufacturers say that voltage is only an accurate indicator of state of charge after the battery has not seen charging or loads for 24 hours or more. Shut off your engine and see 12.8+, means very very little.

Now as to your wiring diagram, the green wire is the stock vehicular wiring. This is undersized for the task of recharging even the single engine starting battery. It usually has a fuse somewhere along its length, and this stock wire is usually no thicker than 6 awg.

You basically are not charging the house battery off the starter battery. In your diagram the alternator is feeding the starter battery, and the house battery is feeding off the starter battery once the solenoid is engaged. There are issues with this method. One is the voltage regulator. Having the house battery tacked onto the starter battery through a solenoid, well the voltage regulator sees the nearly fully charged starting battery and will likely prematurely lower voltage greatly reducing the much wanted charging current

Number2 is that the original wiring is too thin for a large depleted battery tacked onto the end of the circuit.

This can be remedied by adding another 'green' wire in parallel from alternator the starter battery. You do not need to do anything to the original alternator circuit for this.
Or this wire can go from alternator (+) directly to starter battery side of the solenoid. Technically this wire should be fused at both ends as it will always be hot, even with the key off. Protecting this cable from chafing and shorting to ground is very important if one decides to forgo this fusing, which I am not recommending.

So If one unconventionally runs a wire from alternator(+) to solenoid to house battery, generally the circuit length is much shorter, and the voltage regulator will see the depleted house battery more than the nearly fully charged starter battery and allow the alternator to make more current, to feed the battery which wants, and needs it more.



The continuous duty solenoid Should be rated at, at least 90 amps. 200 is better.
The wire that triggers the solenoid only needs to pass at most, 2 amps of current. It does not need to be thick wire, it does however need to be fused. The solenoid might have two trigger wires, One (+), one (-). It does not matter which is which, really. One can just go the the mounting bolt, assuming it is grounded/ Other solenoids have just one trigger wire stud as it is assumed the solenoid will be grounded and it takes ground there.

The circuit you choose to activate the solenoid is another matter. I personally do not want the house battery assisting engine starting. This puts undue stress on the contacts in the solenoid, and exposes devices hooked to house battery to starter surges which might damage them. On my Van, and many vehicles, the blower motor circuit for the Hvac is deactivated during engine cranking. I would personally choose this circuit for activating a solenoid, if I used a solenoid.

The solenoid is the least expensive way to achieve automatic battery isolation and allow battery recharging, but far from the only product and method. I like the Blue Seas ACRs
http://www.bluesea.com/products/category/Automatic_Charging_Relays

The inverter should tell you at what size to fuse it. But you are fusing to protect the wiring, not the inverter, nor devices hooked to the inverter. The Inverter should be close to the batteries, but not in the same compartment with them, though with an AGM this is of less importance. Close for minimal voltage drop. use 120v household extension cords to reach distant devices as voltage drop over AC circuits in not really a factor in this circumstance.

The Inverter should be the last resort, not the first.

Laptop DC to DC "car adapters' are much more efficient. Almost every single laptop out there has one available. Mine was 22$ and is 3+ years old at this point. PWR+ brand.

Charging USB devices through an inverter might be the very definition of wastefulness in Vandwelling.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...ds=usb+car+adapter&rh=i:aps,k:usb+car+adapter.

Your record player might humm with a 60 HZ buzz when powered by the inverter. A pure sine wave inverter might cure this buzz, but they are 2 to 3x as much. The size and weight of records, and the player is not conducive to vehicular dwelling.

As for grounding, if you do go with a battery monitor, there must be a shunt installed between the batteries and all the ground wires. There will be two big bolts on the Shunt. One stud will have 2 wires attached to it, One going to starter battery(-) the other to house battery (-). On the other side of the shunt is the load side. All stock vehicular grounds must run here, The original battery to engine ground must be disconnected. it now becomes the engine to shunt ground. Same with the firewall ground. Many alternators are grounded to the engine through the mounting bolts, others have a wire from alternator to engine ground. IF the latter, run this wire directly to Shunt.

A buss bar should be hooked to the load side of the shunt. To this Bussbar you hook all (-) from your house loads. No (-) wire can go directly to either battery (-) without going through the shunt. If any wire does, then the shunt will not be reading all the current flowing into or out of either battery, and the battery monitor becomes inaccurate. Even if you are only monitoring the house battery, no other (-) wires can go directly to the starter battery that do not go through the shunt.

Properly terminating large cabling to hook onto battery or Solenoid or alternator is extremely important. It requires the right tools and the skills to use them. I recommend those without the tools and skills to have cables made for them. The store bought cables sold at autoparts stores are NOT made well. They have steel ring terminals just crushed over copper wire.

Stereo shops can make up fat properly terminated cables for you but be weary of aluminum cables or copper clad aluminum cablesas they are not rated for the same current as pure copper. Here is an online store that will make cables with high quality parts and workmanship. Do not skimp on these fat charging cables. At best skimping causes poor battery recharging, at worst your vehicle turns into a volcano.
http://www.genuinedealz.com/custom-cables

The fatter the wires you purchase, the better the alternator can charge the battery, upto the 80% State of charge range. However the fatter the wire, the harder the alternator will be made to work when the batteries are depleted. This can shorten the life of the alternator, and many choose thinner wire for this reason, and many choose thinner wire just because it is cheaper and easier to run.
Distance also plays a big part in how fat the wire should be, as well as the amount of connections.


Circuit breakers are a great option over fuses, but I suspect many cheaper fuses, and circuit breakers will not trip the circuit at their current rating. I also suspect the circuit breakers have more voltage drop across them than a good ANL fuse. Do not shop for these by price alone.

The starter battery and house battery can be completely different, but this is not ideal. AGM and flooded batteries do have slightly different charging current requirements, and this varies by manufacturer, and can vary widely. Right now I have both an AGM and a flooded battery. I try and keep the AGM battery from seeing voltages over 14.7, and I try to never leave the batteries in parallel without a charging source keeping the voltage over 13.1, which is the resting fully charged voltage of my Northstar AGM battery.

Many will say that one battery or the other will always be over or undercharged when charging in parallel. I have not found this to be true with the many different ways I have to measure current into or out of either battery, but I have not run every permutation of battery state of charge and alternator rpm either. What I have noticed is that the battery takes what it wants at the voltages allowed at what the charging source can provide.

One thing you pretty much require is a grid powered charger and some method to power it. You cannot rely on the alternator alone to fully charge a battery, not unless you are driving hundreds of miles after each discharge. If a battery is cycled daily below ~90%, every 7 to 10 days is needs a full 100% charge, or it will suffer progressive capacity loss, and die a premature, expensive death. The higher the state of charge you can keep the battery, the better it can perform and the longer it will last.

Solar can be very good at taking the battery from 80 to 97%. Many consider 97% fully charged, but really that last 3% takes longer than there is daylight available to get it there.

AGM's basically will be fully charged when they accept no more current where as flooded batteries will always take a little bit. One can stick a hydrometer into a flooded battery to see how it fares under any given recharge regimen. AGMs require an amp hour counter/ battery monitor.

Sorry that living off battery power is not simpler. It can be, as long as frequently replacing batteries is no big deal, but keeping batteries where they can perform well and live a long life can be challenging, so one must place a line in the sand between 'ignorance is bliss' and 'battery nerd'
 
Stern covered it well but I would never use circuit breakers on the DC side of the system. They use a heating effect to open the circuit. There is a small metal strip inside that heats and bends causing the contact tips to separate. When the circuit has a short they repeatedly open and close and arcing occurs and they can then weld in the closed position. Use fuses for good protection. Don't buy cheap fuses as some of them have been know to not blow when needed and cause damage or fire. Buy BUSS brand.

http://bussfuses.net/

The circuit breaker in a 120 volt house type breaker panel is completely different. It trips and does not automatically try to close again. You have to manually try to close it and it will not close until the fault is remedied.
As said above, try to not invert as it is just another thing that uses battery power.
You will never properly charge with a vehicle alternator. You can use shore power, solar or a generator but they all need the proper charger for deep cycle type batteries. My rule of thumb became "Leave my vehicle out of it". Vehicles wont properly charge deep cycle batteries so why run the risk of draining your starting battery and the risk of damaging your starting battery. I know the solenoid is supposed to prevent that but why bring the vehicle into the the picture if it cant really do the job.
 
I'd forgotten about the self resetting circuit breakers. I kept picturing the larger type I employ.

I have one similar to this on my Alternator to manual Battery switch feed and between solar charge controller and manual battery switch:

blue-sea-systems-7104-dc-circuit-breaker-150a-waterproof-44913.jpg




One can push the button to open the circuit, move the lever to close it. It will not reclose on its own.

Then there exist these types:
colehearse_15.gif


I do not employ any of these. I do not like the self resetting aspect. If they opened the circuit, I want to know why, I don't want the circuit just to start working again after the circuit breaker has cooled back down.


In case my referral to a 'battery switch' causes confusion, Here is the manual battery switch I use to manually isolate or combine batteries. I use the studs on the back as power distribution points, as many ring terminals can fit on the studs.
http://www.bluesea.com/products/6007/m-Series_Mini_Selector_Battery_Switch_-_Red.

I actually use three of these switches. One for ignition/starter/alternator, one to switch house loads to either battery, and one to switch Solar to either battery. Putting any of the three switches to 'Both' parallels the batteries regardless of the settings of the other 2 switches though.
 
Stern, I like the black one with the red button. The other style below it is the one that I have seen weld shut.
 
Outstanding job as always Sternwake.

I wouldn't use a hot plate either, but there is a viable alternative for electric cooking. It's the induction magnetic cooktops. The are very high draw but they are so fast it is for very short times making them practical. Even at 150 amps when divided by 60 is 2 1/ amps a minute for a 5 minute cook is only 12.5 amps. Round off to 18 for all the waste and it's still doable if you have much solar.

They do require a 1500-2000 watt purse sine wave inverter so they are expensive.
Bob
 
Outstanding job as always Sternwake.

I wouldn't use a hot plate either, but there is a viable alternative for electric cooking. It's the induction magnetic cooktops. The are very high draw but they are so fast it is for very short times making them practical. Even at 150 amps when divided by 60 minutes is 2 1/2 amps a minute for a 5 minute cook is only 12.5 amps. Round off to 18 for all the waste and it's still doable if you have much solar.

They do require a 1500-2000 watt purse sine wave inverter so they are expensive.
Bob
Bob
 
Wow thank you all so much! I'm blown away by your in depth responses. I've just seen this so I will read it all now/ just wanted to say thank you! Made my night.
 
Top