Help! Need advice on battery and accessories ?

[John61CT]

Yes did not mean precise, but we haven't got enough to even ballpark yet.

And given limited money, trying to emphasize patience, why seek advice if you're going to jump the gun.

Sometimes an order is very easy to put on hold if you catch the vendor quickly enough.

But whatevs. . .

 

[SternWake]

I agree the battery purchase was hasty.

Actual Gelled electrolyte batteries have some other finicky requirements regarding max voltage and amperage.

Not usually an issue on Solar only recharging with a decent controller, but Alternator recharging could exceed the Gel batteries preferences rendering a portion of its capacity forever inaccessible. Seeing as how alternator charging can play such a huge part in Van dwelling especially with limited solar wattage, gel batteries do not really make the greatest of sense, and while AGM batteries might not have the total number of deep cycles available, they are not likely to be damaged instantly by alternator recharging.

UNless the laptop is going to be used 12 hours a day streaming movies, ballparking her electrical loads is possible, especially with experience, instead of just 6 months of heavy research.

Actually defining an electrical budget's requirements is wise, but requires measurement tools and some knowledge the OP does not have and performing some of those tests require the battery and usage of it as it will be used.

It is the thermoelectric cooler which should not even be attempted to be run 24/7 on solely battery power. The extra battery and solar required would cost more than a 12v compressor fridge.

I wonder who is making Renogy's Gel batteries for them, and what, if any, parameters they will say to remain within regarding charging.

Gelled electrolyte batteries can arguably be the best lead acid deep cycle batteries, as long as they are charged within certain parameters never to be exceeded. The alternator/vehicles voltage regulator, could easily exceed those parameters, and even if only briefly, might cause voids to form in gelled electrolyte, instantly, and permanently reducing battery capacity.

 

[highdesertranger]

what do you need to run off an inverter? highdesertranger

 

[FreeNmyChevyVan4/93]

If you use your 12v thermo electric cooler, assuming you started with a fully charged 100Ah battery, it will be 50% depleted in about 8 hours.

So you are stuck with Ice and a cooler, or Ice in that thermoelectric cooler, and ony plugging it in while you actually drive.

Othewise your loads should be handled by 100Ah AGM.  By the way there are Gel batteries, and there are AGM batteries, but there are not Gel/AGM.  I hope Renogy is not marketing such Unicorn tears.

100 watts will likely prove inadequate, especially portable as they only work when you set them up.  100 watts permanently mounted on the roof would harvest much more energy.

For comparison, I have a pretty refined system. My loads are this 90 watt (max) laptop, my 12v compressor fridge( extra insulated, well ventilated) computer fans LED lights and a TV, with 200 watts of solar on a 90AH high$$ Northstar AGM battery.  The battery is my ONLY battery, for house and engine turns 4 years old in Novemeber has over 550 deep cycles on it, and still performs well.

BUt My alternator can always recharge the battery as fast as possible as I control the electrical pressure( voltage), and I have a 40 amp plug in charger which can also basically charge the battery as fast as possible.  HIgher ampergae might shave off 20 minutes total from the minimum 6.5 hours from 50%.  My solar panels are controlled by a programable MPPT controller.

Your first battery is likely doomed to early failure as your recharging is not really enough, and we also do not know how much you will use the laptop, nor the fans and at what speed the fans will run which will have huge effects on battery capacity and recharging capacity required.

While my laptop can draw 90 watts, it averages about 35 when its battery is fully charged.  My laptop basically uses 3x more electricity as my 12v compressor fridge would in an hour period.

The topic of living on 12v is pretty convoluted and there is lot to learn to maximize battery life, but don;t get overwhelmed.  Less than ideal just means replacing the battery more often, and in many cases this is much easier than going to extremes to maximize battery life.

I would just recommend one keep this in mind, a happy battery is a cool and fully charged battery.  Use any and all charging sources whenever convenient to get the battery to as high a state of charge as possible.

How long the battery lasts is dependent more on its charging regimen, rather than the quality or perceived quality of the battery.  True deep cycle batteries can be a LOT better, but only when good recharging exists.  A crappy battery and a top quality battery will both be killed by insufficient recharging/chronic undercharging with the top quality battery perhaps going only a smidge longer before rolling over and giving up.

Worry about top quality battery acquiring when you can recharge them properly.  YOu will not really have that until you get some more solar on your roof, or be able to plug into the grid somewhat regularly, but you definitely should utilize the alternator.  Alternator charging is far from perfect, and the efficacy will vary hugely depending on the vehicle and its voltage regulator, but it can accomplish a lot with a depleted battery and good thickness copper between alternator and depleted battery.

A battery discharged to 50% might be able to be recharge to 80% in under an hour with a high amperage charging source, but 80 to 100% cannot be accomplished in less than 3.5 hours, and that is at ideal voltages. Vehicles usually only allows ideal voltages briefly after startup.  The voltage the vehicle allows will vary widely amongst different vehicle platforms.

Johnct51, lets not scare her by telling the OP that they need to precisely calculate an electrical budget, and to return the battery bought.  The loads can be estimated and the battery can be made to work for a period of time.  The OP is not looking to set up ideal right off the bat and does not need to be overwhelmed with your ideal approach.

The 12v thermoelectric cooler has got to go though, or only used as a regular cooler and plugged in only when driving.  100 watt of solar  could only power that round the clock if the sun never set and there were no other loads.

Thanks sooo much, I'm going to have to read a coyple of times and ill have questions.

 

[FreeNmyChevyVan4/93]

Ill have to put a real refrigerator on my wish list

 

[dr_nelson]

Ill have to put a real refrigerator on my wish list

Engel Coolers still has a sale going, I think...

 

[John61CT]

Ill have to put a real refrigerator on my wish list

https://vanlivingforum.com/showthread.php?tid=25007

Also see the Max Burton line I mentioned in that thread

 

[Gideon33w]

Anything but a danfoss powered 12v fridge will consume power far faster than any reasonable solar/battery system can handle.
I'd rather have a Dometic I unplug at night with a cheaper battery bank than try to run a thermoelectric "fridge".

 

[John61CT]

Actually many people have adapted a super-efficient mains power fridge + inverter setup.

The key is adding a thermostatic relay control runs on 12V, that powers up the inverter to run only when needed. Plus insulation, ventilation etc to optimize efficiency, as many do anyway.

Ends up being much cheaper than these specialized Danfoss style units, can pick up replacements so cheap not worth repairing the actual fridge part when it breaks.

But yes need to have DIY skills, or be very motivated to figure it out from online posts.

 

[FreeNmyChevyVan4/93]

If you use your 12v thermo electric cooler, assuming you started with a fully charged 100Ah battery, it will be 50% depleted in about 8 hours.

So you are stuck with Ice and a cooler, or Ice in that thermoelectric cooler, and ony plugging it in while you actually drive.

Othewise your loads should be handled by 100Ah AGM.  By the way there are Gel batteries, and there are AGM batteries, but there are not Gel/AGM.  I hope Renogy is not marketing such Unicorn tears.

100 watts will likely prove inadequate, especially portable as they only work when you set them up.  100 watts permanently mounted on the roof would harvest much more energy.

For comparison, I have a pretty refined system. My loads are this 90 watt (max) laptop, my 12v compressor fridge( extra insulated, well ventilated) computer fans LED lights and a TV, with 200 watts of solar on a 90AH high$$ Northstar AGM battery.  The battery is my ONLY battery, for house and engine turns 4 years old in Novemeber has over 550 deep cycles on it, and still performs well.

BUt My alternator can always recharge the battery as fast as possible as I control the electrical pressure( voltage), and I have a 40 amp plug in charger which can also basically charge the battery as fast as possible.  HIgher ampergae might shave off 20 minutes total from the minimum 6.5 hours from 50%.  My solar panels are controlled by a programable MPPT controller.

Your first battery is likely doomed to early failure as your recharging is not really enough, and we also do not know how much you will use the laptop, nor the fans and at what speed the fans will run which will have huge effects on battery capacity and recharging capacity required.

While my laptop can draw 90 watts, it averages about 35 when its battery is fully charged.  My laptop basically uses 3x more electricity as my 12v compressor fridge would in an hour period.

The topic of living on 12v is pretty convoluted and there is lot to learn to maximize battery life, but don;t get overwhelmed.  Less than ideal just means replacing the battery more often, and in many cases this is much easier than going to extremes to maximize battery life.

I would just recommend one keep this in mind, a happy battery is a cool and fully charged battery.  Use any and all charging sources whenever convenient to get the battery to as high a state of charge as possible.

How long the battery lasts is dependent more on its charging regimen, rather than the quality or perceived quality of the battery.  True deep cycle batteries can be a LOT better, but only when good recharging exists.  A crappy battery and a top quality battery will both be killed by insufficient recharging/chronic undercharging with the top quality battery perhaps going only a smidge longer before rolling over and giving up.

Worry about top quality battery acquiring when you can recharge them properly.  YOu will not really have that until you get some more solar on your roof, or be able to plug into the grid somewhat regularly, but you definitely should utilize the alternator.  Alternator charging is far from perfect, and the efficacy will vary hugely depending on the vehicle and its voltage regulator, but it can accomplish a lot with a depleted battery and good thickness copper between alternator and depleted battery.

A battery discharged to 50% might be able to be recharge to 80% in under an hour with a high amperage charging source, but 80 to 100% cannot be accomplished in less than 3.5 hours, and that is at ideal voltages. Vehicles usually only allows ideal voltages briefly after startup.  The voltage the vehicle allows will vary widely amongst different vehicle platforms.

Johnct51, lets not scare her by telling the OP that they need to precisely calculate an electrical budget, and to return the battery bought.  The loads can be estimated and the battery can be made to work for a period of time.  The OP is not looking to set up ideal right off the bat and does not need to be overwhelmed with your ideal approach.

The 12v thermoelectric cooler has got to go though, or only used as a regular cooler and plugged in only when driving.  100 watt of solar  could only power that round the clock if the sun never set and there were no other loads.

Lol, thanks again.
.i so appreciate you taking the time. This stuff is a little scary for me but I'm learning

 

[highdesertranger]

I just want to point out the Danfoss compressor is not the only compressor used in 12v refrigerators. Engels use a Sawafuji.

http://www.fridgefreezersite.com/sawafuji-compressor/

totally different type of compressor. highdesertranger

 

[John61CT]

Sawafuji is said to be a bit noisier/vibratory for those who may be sensitive.

From the pics, looked to me the Max Burton unit is straight re-badged Waeco (Dometic), which has got a great rep.

But those Engels are apparently **very** reliable long-term.

 

[FreeNmyChevyVan4/93]

what do you need to run off an inverter?  highdesertranger

Right now the only thing is my laptop. Everything else is 12volt. I might want to use a blender though.

 

[John61CT]

should run laptops direct off DC

see the specs on the power brick and match with a "universal" 12V converter from Amazon or eBay.

or get the "car adapter" made for your specific laptop

 

[SternWake]

If your laptop draws more than 60 watts, I'd recommend not geting a 'universal' car laptop converter, as only few are rated to supply more than this, though I see more on the market than a few years ago These universal ones are basically for recharging the laptop while it is off/ hibernate standby. They are not really designed to both power the laptop and charge its battery. I watched one rated for 80 watts melt and start smoking before my eyes when I first decided to bypass the inverter some 12 years ago. it was fine until I spun up the DVD player when the battery was low, but if I was not there to smell and see the smoke, well melted plastic stink might have been preferable than what could have happened..

Hopefully they are made better today, but I advise using caution when using 'Universal' laptop car adapters, and on some like DELL or HP, they will not charge the battery, only power the laptop as they require a third wire/ contact.

In addition to this is the Universal adapters seem to have even worse Ciggy plugs than other devices, and these all become compromised with use and more so and faster when asked to provide above 60 watts.

. These can also have issues with polarity or the exact plug part pulling out of the universal portion and possibly shorting out while doing so, perhaps damaging laptop.

To determine if it draws more than 60 watts multiply DC output amperage x output voltage. This will be listed on the original AC/DC power brick which came with your laptop.

One thing to keep in mind is it is more efficient to keep the laptop battery fully charged, than it is to unplug, use the laptop battery until its battery warning light comes on, then recharging it.

NOw if one is going to drive in 2 hours, then one can use the laptop battery. Or one can use the laptop battery
mid morning, as once the solar gets the battery to near absorption voltage , there wll soon be excess solar wattage available, and getting to absorption voltage earlier in the day via solar is always better for the battery.

An inverter powering the original AC/DC power brick will use significantly more battery power than will a 12v to ~19.5v DC to DC car adapter. Mine is basically 12 to 20% less juice, but it depends on the task the computer is performing and will depend on the efficiency of the inverter used at that specific wattage output.

As my laptop is basically my biggest electrical consumer, saving 12 to 20% is a considerable amount.

The issue with all car adapters is the ciggy plug. At some point it WILL fail.

https://www.bluesea.com/products/1015/12_Volt_Plug_with_Dash_Socket

The above link is much better, and is pretty easy to install the new plug, replacing the plug the car adapter came with. The spring loaded nipple tip is the (+). Its wire is usually red, but sometimes white, but double checking with a digital multimeter should be considered paramount when replacing.

got amazon electronics type in you laptop make and model and add 'car adapter'. Look for ones that look like this:

Some of the hits might just be a small inverter designed to plug your current power brick into. Avoid these.

 

[John61CT]

If I had a big gaming laptop or was editing video or something, I'd work off something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01H97ET2Q

or

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00UYBL252

Besides amps, the voltage, pin size and polarity all need to match.

Don't need to get voltage exactly either.

 

[FreeNmyChevyVan4/93]

should run laptops direct off DC

see the specs on the power brick and match with a "universal" 12V converter from Amazon or eBay.

or get the "car adapter" made for your specific laptop

Checked my laptop power cord and it's 60 watts

 

[FreeNmyChevyVan4/93]

If your laptop draws more than 60 watts, I'd recommend not geting  a 'universal'  car laptop converter, as only few are rated to supply more than this, though I see more on the market than a few years ago  These universal ones are basically for recharging the laptop while it is off/ hibernate standby.  They are not really designed to both power the laptop and charge its battery.  I watched one rated for 80 watts melt and start smoking before my eyes when I first decided to bypass the inverter some 12 years ago.  it was fine until I spun up the DVD player when the battery was low, but if I was not there to smell and see the smoke, well melted plastic stink might have been preferable than what could have happened..

Hopefully they are made better today, but I  advise using caution  when using  'Universal' laptop car adapters, and on some like DELL or HP, they will not charge the battery, only power the laptop as they require a third wire/ contact.

In addition to this is the Universal adapters seem to have even worse Ciggy plugs than other devices, and these all become compromised with use and more so and faster when asked to provide above 60 watts.

.  These can also have issues with polarity or the exact plug part pulling out of the universal portion and possibly shorting out while doing so, perhaps damaging laptop.

To determine if it draws more than 60 watts multiply DC output amperage x output voltage. This will be listed on the original AC/DC power brick which came with your laptop.

One thing to keep in mind is it is more efficient to keep the laptop battery fully charged, than it is to unplug, use the laptop battery until its battery warning light comes on, then recharging it.

NOw if one is going to drive in 2 hours, then one can use the laptop battery.  Or one can use the laptop battery
mid morning, as once the solar gets the battery to  near absorption voltage ,  there wll soon be excess solar wattage available, and getting to absorption voltage earlier in the day via solar is always better for the battery.

An inverter powering the original AC/DC power brick will use significantly more battery power than will a 12v to ~19.5v DC to DC car adapter.  Mine is basically 12 to 20% less juice, but it depends on the task the computer is performing and will depend on the efficiency of the inverter used at that specific wattage output.

As my laptop is basically my biggest electrical consumer, saving 12 to 20% is a considerable amount.

The issue with all car adapters is the ciggy plug.  At some point it WILL fail.

https://www.bluesea.com/products/1015/12_Volt_Plug_with_Dash_Socket

The above link is much better, and is pretty easy to install the new plug, replacing the plug the car adapter came with.  The spring loaded nipple tip is the (+).  Its wire is usually red, but sometimes white, but double checking with a digital multimeter should be considered paramount when replacing.

got amazon electronics type in you laptop make and model and add 'car adapter'.  Look  for ones that look like this:

Some of the hits might just be a small inverter designed to plug your current power brick into.  Avoid these.

Wow, thanks so much, Stern, great advice. I'm going to get the 12v adapter

 

[DLTooley]

Dometic is playing around with the competitive pricing, either that or they have design copycat producers.  I am not sure which is the Max Burton.  I do believe it has a warranty.  The CF/CC line is a bit cheaper than the CFX, and I just bought one of those.  Curiously $90 cheaper on this site:

http://www.dyersonline.com/dometic-...ble-electric-cooler-refrigerator-freezer.html

I am still using a my **second** Wally world 'Marine' deep cycle, after the using the warranty to replace the learning curve first.  The fridge will be run off this system, unplugged at night, until the battery goes - at which point I will upgrade to a two golf cart battery system.  Hopefully the lithium options will be competitive by that time.  Also, lead acid only off gasses when they are being charged.  I sleep right next to mine.

 

[SternWake]

Turning the fridge off at night is not a great idea.

It takes more energy to cool it back down than if one had left it continue maintaining a safe food temperature. (sub 40f)

Also when turning it back on, it will run a lot more than if it had been left on overnight. When solar is involved this basically will mean reaching absorption voltage later in the morning, or afternoon, leaving less time for the total absorption charge to complete, and it takes many hours, which is verifyable with a hydrometer, or an Ammeter with AGM's when held at absorption voltage for those who are wise enough to not believe the ' all's well just fine carry on' green light which is a bald faced liar 98% of the time when deep cycling daily/nightly.



Batteyr longevity when full time dwelling is really all about getting the battery to absorption voltage earlier in the day, and I bet turning the fridge off at night then back on in the morning would likely delay the attainment of absorption voltage, compared to leaving the fridge on if solar is to be the only charging source.

Also it is harder on electronics to be turned on and off. Heat cycling is bad for them, stressed the solder joints and capacitors and other electrirc gizmos inside. It is Likely much better for it to remain on. perhaps turn it way down to the minimum, but I recommmend leaving it on and maintaining sub 40f temperatures the entire time overnight.

The only time I turn mine off is for defrosting, or when I fly across country for a few weeks. Sometimes with my previous fridge, a Norcold whose sawafuji compressor seemed to be designed by some evil masochist in the noise and vibration department, i would shut it off at night just to sleep. Often when i would get up I would find 45+ degree internal temperatures and would turn it back on only to find it running a much higher duty cycle and often the solar would not get the battery full by sundown, and being warmer thee fridge had a harder job to do, while running uphill. it would seem that 8 hours of no fridge use would use less overall electricity but returning all the items back down to sub 40f appeared to use considerable more energy overall compared to just leaving it on.

In fact it could be argued if one is going to turn off their fridge, it might be best to do so at first light, so the solar can get the battery to absorption voltage quicker, and thus have more time to complete the true full recharge. With the coolest temperatures at night, the fridge will actually work less hard to get or maintain a cold internal temperature, so going one step further, if one were really trying to do the best thing for the battery, they would crank it up at night, allow the fridge to get near or just below freezing by the morning, then turn it all the way to its warmest setting, then let the solar get the battery to absorption voltage faster /ASAP with minimal/lesser DC loading, and then once there is a solar surplus, after absorption voltage has been reached, crank the fridge back to just above freezing.

If one is having to turn off their fridge at night to keep their battery above 50%, they have too little battery, or are using too much of it on other devices. I can see doing this if one is driving first thing in the morning with batteries on their last legs, but only then.

Your battery, your fridge, but I would place money on a fridge using more energy in a 24 hour period being turned off for 8 of those hours overnight, then forcing it to then get everything back down to sub 40F, compared to leaving it on the whole 24 hours.

I could perform this experiment, but I wont.

I always urge members to verify their battery is indeed full when their solar charge controller says so.

The time the battery requires in absorption voltage to reach full charge keeps increasing as the battery ages. if it does not get this extra time then the battery degrades faster and takes even longer to recharge each subsequent cycle. it is a very slippery slope and regaining traction is temporary, and any uphill climb is again quickly lost.

verify with a hydrometer every so often, extend absorption charging duration as required, and recheck every few months as the battery ages.

A 100Ah AGM battery can be considered full when it only accepts 0.5amps or less at the correct absorption voltage, meaning 14.4 to 14.7v. Full cannot be determined at float voltage.

They are just batteries, and just rented, but the length of that rental contract can be influenced to a huge degree when the user ensures the battery does indeed get to 100% full regularly. 98% charged is good, but only half as good as 100%