Help choosing between passenger and cargo van

[becca]

Good day!

I'm looking for input, concerns, etc. between the top two candidates to become my camper/home on wheels:

1997 Chevrolet Express 2500 Cargo Van (dealer owned via trade, no service records available) asking $3495
   5.0L V8 engine
A plus is no side windows but windows in the back

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/ctd/6173697595.html

1997 Dodge Mark III Van (private seller who has owned for about 4 years) asking $3100 (price dropped since posted)
  Two VIN searches indicate this one has the 5.9L 360 (although owner originally posted as 6 cyl)
The carpet is nasty, plan would involve removing all rear seats and "pretty" side panels for insulation

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/cto/6161196969.html

They have a comparable number of miles (146k and 150k)

I've been to see the Dodge and have an appointment to see the Chevy tomorrow.

This will be my first conversion project after investing time over the past few months researching.

I've read the very well-written post elsewhere on CRVL comparing/contrasting the main aspects among Chevy/Dodge/Ford.  

Background on my vehicle experience:  SO owned a 1999 Chevy Silverado 1500 (4.3L V6)  from new until it was totaled late last year; we replaced it with 2016 Ram 1500 with the 5.7L Hemi.  I own a 2001 GMC Jimmy SLE (also 4.3L V6), since new, this will be posted for sale soon.

I do have a very trustworthy mechanic I will ask for inspection/repairs.

My trips over the past few years have been in a 2002 Winnebago Vista 21' Class C mini motor home that will be posted for sale once the van is acquired and road worthy.  The Vista was a great choice based on what I knew at the time but my thinking and plans have since evolved, and a full-size van makes more sense for the dispersed camping I do). 

My plans are to start with the van only and eventually be able to tow a converted 14'-16' trailer.

Thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts, experience, etc.  General input between passenger and cargo van very welcome!

 

[user 37446]

You have to decide, as Bob Wells puts it on his blog video posts, if you want to insulate much or not. The midtop Dodge is nice looking inside but most of that may "go away" and that can be a lot of work, while the cargo van is already prepped (except for the lift and wood side rails) to be insulated and paneled. The cargo is also a lot easier to install a fantastic fan type vent in, as you have no finish ceiling to contend with.

Pluses for the cargo are the "blank slate" effect and you understand GM's. I'm not too thrilled with the 5.0 (305?) as opposed to a 5.7, I'll leave it to others more knowledgeable to comment.

The Dodge 5.9 has some kind of valley pan gasket issue common but otherwise is a good motor. The midtop gives you some extra roo but you likely cannot stand fully up inside it. The paint is oxidized a lot (red doesnt take to that extreme sun well) and the white cargo would be cooler as opposed to a red paint.

I prefer the midtop for the room but wouldn't like to rip the walls out. The cargo is a lot quicker to fix up but low top.

That's just a quick gut reaction. Your mechanic may nix one or both. Check for rust and front end wear/steering on both. I'll be glad to follow and see what you decided to do.

 

[becca]

Thank you much for your input and confirming my line of thinking of the Chevy being a relatively clean slate vs the removal of stuff from the Dodge. 

I'm concerned about how well the 305 in the Chevy could handle a trailer going uphill.  

The Dodge's much oxidized "red" color looks even more brown in real time than is seen in the pics; I suppose a perk is that it's pretty easy to spot body damage from the past few years!  And you're right about the height -- I'm 5'7" and was surprised the midtop didn't offer more room than it did (inset lighting effect up there).  

The Chevy, I did a search on the VIN from the seller (1GCFG29M7V1060415) and the top results were about salvage auctions (including an place in GA that simply shows the auction for it has ended); I've sent a message to see if I can get confirmation for where it was auctioned and whether it did in fact have a salvage title -- it's being advertised in AZ with a clear title.  I'm not sure it's a deal breaker but may be a good bargaining point.  I'm curious about what kind of damage it had.  

I have frequently camped in places where the temp drops to freezing and below so insulation is important for me.  My thoughts are that insulating a cargo van would be better in the long run than covering the windows in a passenger van with reflectix.

My Vista has a very thin layer of styrofoam insulation and when the low outside is freezing, it's 40 inside.  Thank goodness for my buddy heater!

I'm also considering whether I'd be better off selling something first and spending more money for a newer vehicle up front . . .

 

[user 37446]

Uhh, yeah. I read your post, that cargo was definately a write off in some way, I searched with the vin and even though the "salvage auctions" have ended, the similar type vans are all serious collisions, fires or flood damaged. So, do you want your next home to have that background?  That and the 305 engine, I think not... Better move on and save up for a better example of a cargo with a 5.7 instead of the 5.0.

Shows the value of running the vin and getting the auto check or carmax, and the propensity for sellers to do "title washing", which could have fooled you and left you with problems.

Keep looking...  :-/

The Dodge can be used if you like it, see threads about van conversions, including YouTube videos about people who have stripped out the van interiors... I know its more work but sometimes you get the power windows, locks, cruise and nicer front seats than any cargo would have, as well as the slight (12") increase in headroom.

 

[becca]

I'm a big fan of searching previous posts (part of why I have so few posts here!); my searches yesterday yielded no results -- yet behold the Possibly Related Threads below! *sigh* ah well . . .

Some additional considerations:

Solar:  I do have plans to install two panels on the roof (would this even be a good idea on the Dodge?)
Windows:  I like having windows to see out (scenery enjoyment as well as security) but am thinking the windows in the back and the the side door of the cargo van will be sufficient and allow more options for layout design.
Ventilation:  Also plan to install a fan in the roof

Hmmmm, even if not the specific van in my OP, looks like a cargo/panel van may be the better fit for my plans.

 

[becca]

Uhh, yeah. I read your post, that cargo was definately a write off in some way, I searched with the vin and even though the "salvage auctions" have ended, the similar type vans are all serious collisions, fires or flood damaged. So, do you want your next home to have that background?  That and the 305 engine, I think not... Better move on and save up for a better example of a cargo with a 5.7 instead of the 5.0.

Shows the value of running the vin and getting the auto check or carmax, and the propensity for sellers to do "title washing", which could have fooled you and left you with problems.

Keep looking...  :-/

The Dodge can be used if you like it, see threads about van conversions, including YouTube videos about people who have stripped out the van interiors... I know its more work but sometimes you get the power windows, locks, cruise and nicer front seats than any cargo would have, as well as the slight (12") increase in headroom.

Very much appreciate your input; I didn't see this come through as I was writing my additional considerations post 

What are your thoughts about mounting solar panels to the Dodge?

 

[Ballenxj]

My thoughts,
The Dodge already has a hi-top, although a paint job may be in order. I avoid Red for that reason.
Both having comparable miles, but neither has had the transmission rebuilt. They are both approaching the mileage that transmissions tend to fail.
Do you want to roll those Dice? Either way, make sure you have money set aside for the inevitable mechanical issues that may arise.
Foot note, I rarely get a used vehicle that doesn't need something, including tires.
 Good Luck.

 

[user 37446]

Ballenxj had some good points, anything that mileage/age needs a serious emergency fund, trannies are expensive...

As far as installing solar on a fiberglass roof, its perfectly doable, there's dozens, (well, several) YouTube videos about installations, some specifically onto fiberglass roofs. Now mind you some fiberglass roofs are single thickness, some doubled, some doubled with wood reinforcement... they vary.

If you look at the conversions and modifications sub forum, I had posted a thread a couple months back about the best conversion van redo that I'd run across.  It was a couple who purchased a conversion van mid top and tore everything out as well as installed solar. They walked the viewer through everything, I mean lots of pictures. If you just read that one by itself it would answer a lot of your questions. Now with that in mind, you still have to determine if the work they went through to remove everything was worth what they ended up with. They wanted the mid top roof and some extra windows, there are those who will tell you that isn't enough gain for the trouble, but it's your project.

CVRL poster AbuelaLoca is doing much the same type project, she has a thread under "Conversions and Modifications", 27 pages worth, that you should read. https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-1993-Ford-Club-Wagon-Juanita-born-again.
If you benefit a lot from all of her work and documenting, give her a +1 on the reputation tab. She's a tireless newcomer greeter and has made it a very friendly and informative place for new van owners.

Mine was called something like "another pic heavy conversion" or something like that, under the same sub forum. Try reading those before you post again, likely they will answer some questions and give you others. 

Now if you find a newer, cleaner cargo that works, disregard all of the above and watch some YouTube or BobWells videos on converting cargoes... 

 

[caretaker]

you sound like you lean chevy, you sound like you trust your wench, ask him see what he thinks, you know each other, we can give you advice(and good advice, if i do say so my self), but he can give you eyeballs on vehicle, are you gonna full time?ect.ect.?

 

[caretaker]

i forgot to add thats a well written disc. of what you want, direct to the point not too wordy, regards, caretaker

 

[akrvbob]

[font=arial, sans-serif][size=small][font=arial, sans-serif]They both have strengths and weaknesses and only you can decide which is your priority and must-have. [/font][font=arial, sans-serif]Here is my real world experience:[/font][/font][/size]

[font=arial, sans-serif]CARGO VANS PRO:[/font]

1. Much more room in the living area because of the huge amount of wasted space lost to plastic trim. You can easily lose 2-6 inches off both walls
2. No ductwork in roof makes it much higher than passenger vans.
3. Okay stealth in residences, much better stealth in commercial/industrial areas
4. Much better stealth with a ladder rack to hide your solar panels and vents
5. Cover your ladder rack with plywood and your roof is in the shade all day--staying much cooler.
6. Easier to insulate which is essential in cold areas
7. Easy to finish just how you want.
8. Much better privacy. All windows on a passenger van must be totally covered for privacy and stealth. You can't keep frost from forming on them.
9. A divider wall in a cargo van 1) seals off the living area totally for privacy and 2) allows easy insulation keeping frost from coming in on the front windows and heat from coming in from them 3) allows you to lock it from mechanics and other intruders.

[font=arial, sans-serif]CARGO VAN CONS:[/font]

1. Feel like a cave without windows.
2. They don't look nice, it takes much more work to make them look nice, but then they look just how you want them to look.
3. Less stealth in residential areas.

[font=arial, sans-serif]PASSENGER VAN PRO:[/font]

1. Better stealth in residential areas as long as you totally cover the windows so no one can see in or no light can get out.
2. The view with windows is great but comes at a high cost: it kills 1) privacy, 2) stealth and 3) keeping a comfortable temperature.
3. No work required inside to make it look nice.

[font=arial, sans-serif]PASSENGER VAN CON:[/font]

1. Much harder to keep a moderate temperature unless you find opening windows, which is very unlikely. All the windows allows[font=arial, sans-serif] heat to pour in during summer and pour out in winter. [/font]
2. Much harder to insulate making it cold in winter.
3. All the plastic or wood trim steals a huge amount of space and lowers headroom. 
4. Nearly everyone I know covers the big side windows on a passenger van with styrofoam insulation or Reflectix to stay cool or warm. But then you lose their main advantage and worse that takes up more space of carrying the Reflectix and creates the hassle of taking it on and off.

[font=arial, sans-serif]To me it was an easy decision, I'm in a cargo van.[/font]

 

[Ballenxj]

I prefer a cargo van for the above reasons. Too much glass is not good for insulation reasons.
Plus, I feel a cargo van is slightly more secure.

 

[Gideon33w]

Glad my sticky on full size vans was helpful. Don't buy a Dodge. If I was given one I'd sell it and buy something else. Transmission and suspension issues will cost you in the long run.
I lean towards cargo vans and low tops but interior height can be a deal-breaker for some people. If you're worried about temp extremes window vans will be a pain in the butt.
Honestly ... I don't like either. You want a Chevy with the 5.7 so that when you switch to a trailer you can tow uphill in elevation without issues. The 305 is a bit of a dog.
There's no shortage of vans on Phoenix craigslist and unless you're in a rush just wait for the right one to pop up at the right price. You'll be happier.

 

[user 37446]

+1 on above, why settle for a 305 when there's a million 5.7's... the newer 4.8 and 5.3 motor (GM) is an good choice as well. Fords have issues from 1998 to 2008 with plugs and cam phasers, doesn't affect all engines yes, but enough that its become a problem (roll the dice).

There's plenty of Dodge supporters, as long as you stay 94' and up (improved Magnum motor) or 96 and up (OBD2 on all brands). Use FR's vin checks that he has left (see his new thread) and make sure you dont get those tricky washed titles/salvage wrecks!

 

[Ballenxj]

There's plenty of Dodge supporters, as long as you stay 94' and up (improved Magnum motor) or 96 and up (OBD2 on all brands).

I like my 3/4 ton Dodge cargo van. Plenty of pep (318 Magnum). Mine is an 03. I do like Chevy too. Can't go too far wrong with a good ole 350.

 

[caretaker]

isn't the 350/5.7 the most produced engine in history? is that true?

 

[gapper2]

Hi becca,
  I'd like to throw in my 2c.  I'm in the middle of converting a 2012 GMC Savana 12 seat passenger van.  Well actually beginning really.  I really only took the seats out a couple or three months ago.  Bob posted a good review a few posts ago on the pros vs. cons of each van type.  I originally purchased it to use as a tow vehicle.  I've got the 6.0 Liter engine and believe it will tow anything I care to tow and then some.  When I was doing my search I found that the difference in the posted mpg was only about 1 or 2 mpg.  My brother is more experienced with tow vehicles and suggested the larger engine and I'm glad I went with his advice.

  For me it was more about the windows.  A 360 degree is pretty awesome.  I've got the maximum factory tint on all windows except windshield, driver, front pass. and rear doors.  I have tilt out windows 1 each on left and right side. and both rear windows.  The first thing I noticed when I took the seats out was how much wasted space there was.  2 inches on the floor wasted by the 2 inch seat rails and mat.  Removed those.  More work than I anticipated.  Then I removed all the pretty plastic on the walls.  At least 3-6 inches wasted side to side.  Then I removed the front and rear headliner.  Another 2-3 inches recovered.  Sooo much more space.  BUT after driving with everything removed,  OH SO NOISEY.  I'm just getting to the noise dampening insulation stage.  I am reading all I can and trying to anticipate some of the problems mentioned on this forum.  I will start a build thread soon but I am sooo SLOOOw.   Lots of helpful people here and I think you can make either van work for you. Take your time.  Good travels.

gapper2

 

[user 37446]

Linked below (some forum feature) are 4 threads that address the cargo vs passenger van debate.  I have read through all 4 and just when I think I am convinced to go one way, someone posts how they went the other way and it works for them... sheesh!  

This is such a personal decision, and to make it harder, when you are looking on CL or AutoTrader, you may find someone selling the opposite choice vehicle for such a good price that you go that way!  

Ex., on a walk this morning I passed by a van in someone's driveway with a for sale sign. 2003 Windstar with 200K kilometers, no rust (that's 120,000 miles), clean. The ad said everything else worked but the transmission is slipping. $300 OBO...

Well, for $300 you could buy it, try a transmission fluid change and if it still slips, scrap it. If the transmission fluid change fixes the issue (which it sometimes does), you've gotten a basic van for a very low investment.

Was I looking for a Windstar? No, but there it is.  Maybe you'll run across your "Windstar" find someday too! 

 

[gapper2]

I'm sorry I threw a monkey wrench into the works TWIH but it really is just a personal preference.  The main thing is reliability and something that can pull a tt or converted cargo trailer for me.  I know that eventually I'll want more comfort.  Doesn't take much to keep me happy.  I don't need stealth.   I was always the kid in elementary and high school that was staring out the window.  Why stop now?  I'll figure the other few inconveniences out.  I plan to travel with favorable weather.

Remember Becca, reliability, something you believe won't let you down. just my 2c.

 

[user 37446]

Ha ha, I never figured out any "wrench"... everyone's ideas are good so far. All I meant for becca was that plans can change, kinda like people watching... "ooh, that one looks nice but wait, lookei over there!..."