Drum brake job - 1993 Ford E-350
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I'm surprised that nobody guessed F = flush. I'm not certain that's what it means, but that's what I recall from the discussion just before the estimate was printed.
I was asking about correct tightness rather than saying my brakes are tight. In fact, the opposite is true. With both the e-brake and the normal brake pedal, I have to push them nearly to the floor to get the best effect. In other words, they don't seem like they're doing much until I get down in the last quarter of their range. They both seem too easy to push to me, and easier than when I first got the truck, before the brake problems appeared.
I also thought that they should begin to noticeably work at halfway through their range.
To my mind, this seems like an adjustment problem. Meaning that when the mechanic finished his job, he did not adjust them properly. I think this because it felt that way immediately after leaving the shop.
Do people generally agree that it's an adjustment problem? And if so, where do the adjustments need to be made, generally speaking?
Tom
I was asking about correct tightness rather than saying my brakes are tight. In fact, the opposite is true. With both the e-brake and the normal brake pedal, I have to push them nearly to the floor to get the best effect. In other words, they don't seem like they're doing much until I get down in the last quarter of their range. They both seem too easy to push to me, and easier than when I first got the truck, before the brake problems appeared.
I also thought that they should begin to noticeably work at halfway through their range.
To my mind, this seems like an adjustment problem. Meaning that when the mechanic finished his job, he did not adjust them properly. I think this because it felt that way immediately after leaving the shop.
Do people generally agree that it's an adjustment problem? And if so, where do the adjustments need to be made, generally speaking?
Tom
highdesertranger
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yes I agree it's more than likely an adjustment problem. there should be an access hole on the backing plate to adjust them. the wheel must be off the ground. then you spin the wheel as you adjust the star nut. adjust the brakes until they just touch the drum. then drive around the block and do it all again. actually you can drive it right on the jack stands. what you are trying to do is seat the brakes at the closest point to the drums as possible, but not touching enough to cause them to heat up. put it in gear and apply the brakes several times, make sure both tires are spinning. frankly I would take it back to the shop and have them do it. they should have done it the first time and they better not charge you for doing it. side note, my rear drums have three access holes 2 are there to check the thickness of the shoes and one is to adjust the star nut. highdesertranger
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Have you checked the brake fluid since you got it back from the shop. If the brakes weren't properly bled and left with air in the lines, it may be settled and left you with too little brake fluid in the system. They might also need to be bled again properly.
They also might be acting this way if the brakes are not actually activating.
I was feeling like I had to stand on the brakes to get a decent stop. Took it in to the shop and asked them to check the brakes while they were doing other work for me.
Turned out that the PO had had new brake lines installed (I knew that when I bought it) but one line had been incorrectly routed. Over the year or so of travel the line had been progressively been pinched to the point where it was no longer allowing brake fluid through. All the adjusting in the world wouldn't help that!! They found that when they went to bleed the rear brakes and couldn't get fluid out.
They also might be acting this way if the brakes are not actually activating.
I was feeling like I had to stand on the brakes to get a decent stop. Took it in to the shop and asked them to check the brakes while they were doing other work for me.
Turned out that the PO had had new brake lines installed (I knew that when I bought it) but one line had been incorrectly routed. Over the year or so of travel the line had been progressively been pinched to the point where it was no longer allowing brake fluid through. All the adjusting in the world wouldn't help that!! They found that when they went to bleed the rear brakes and couldn't get fluid out.
only the e-brake has adjustment. if it's going to the floor its even easier to adjust. The brake pedal on the other hand means there's air in the lines. take it back to the shop and make them fix it.
bleeding should equal flushing. To properly bleed you need to suck or push a pretty decent amount. Enough that it should drain the res at least a couple times as you go through all 4 wheels.
bleeding should equal flushing. To properly bleed you need to suck or push a pretty decent amount. Enough that it should drain the res at least a couple times as you go through all 4 wheels.
highdesertranger
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"only the e-brake has adjustment" Not true
the shoes have adjustment also. improperly adjusted shoes will cause a low pedal.
highdesertranger
the shoes have adjustment also. improperly adjusted shoes will cause a low pedal.
highdesertranger
highdesertranger said:
Good to know. And going back to the shop is exactly my plan.
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As far as my previous question regarding the meaning of "B & F brakes", I forgot to say that it could not have been back and front because they were only working on the back. I asked this question because the original estimate had that phrase on it, and then when they billed me, they added flushing the brakes as an extra $70 charge.
Thanks to everyone for the good replies. It is surely helping as I wade through the muck of this automotive swamp.
Tom
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Yes! Drum brakes have a ratchet & pawl, one per wheel equipped with a drum. Disc brakes do not.highdesertranger said:
Another point I'm surprised nobody brought up is that rear drum brakes have had automatic adjusters on them since the sixties. The way they are meant to work is by backing up while applying brakes. That's the purpose of the ratchet mechanism. For quicker adjustment, each backing plate should have a little rubber plug that can be removed to access the ratchet with what is called a brake spoon.
Ballenxj said:
Just an additional note, if it does have automatic adjusters and it gets adjusted to tight the star gear needs to be released from the adjuster to be loosened by pushing the automatic adjuster pawl away from the star gear with a small screw driver and rotating the star gear with a brake spoon as it is a ratcheting device made to only allow it to be only tightened. The emergency brake adjustment, usually a nut and lock nut needs to be loose (slack in the cable) while adjusting the brake shoes . Once the shoes are adjusted to where they touch the drums lightly the automatic adjusters should adjust them up by backing and quickly applying the brakes several times. In my experience they very seldom work as well as they should so I end up readjusting after they wear in. Then adjust up the emergency brake cable till it holds the truck on a hill at half travel. Drive it a few miles and see if the brakes are getting hot. If so check for some slack in the emergency brake cable with it released. If slack is present and brakes are still hot, adjustment is usually too tight. Jack up the truck and try to spin the wheel. You should be able to turn the wheel by hand with brakes off and in neutral.
bullfrog said:
Thanks. I'm not sure how much, if any, of this I will do myself, but this is exactly the kind of detail I was hoping for. Even if I don't do the work, it helps me understand what should be done. Two questions:
1. Normally where is the adjustment mechanism / nuts located for the emergency brake?
2. When doing the automatic brake adjustment, by reversing, should I just continually reverse and apply the brakes intermittently during that reverse drive or some other method? And how to know when I've reversed enough?
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One more factoid regarding the symptoms of my loose or under-adjusted brakes:
I've noticed that when I pump the brakes a little bit, they become tighter and more effective. For example, on the first press, the pedal may go down 75% of the range before it begins to work. On the 2nd quickly successive press, it begins to work somewhere closer to 50-60%. Maybe that means something to someone who knows a lot more about this than me. If so, enlighten me please.
Thanks,
Tom
first of all DO NOT adjust the ebrake cable. That's not what that is for. You have to unscrew the knurled knob until the pads are close to the drum...or try the reverse thing. they're pumping like that and spreading the wheel cylinder getting the shoes close to drum where they're supposed to be. its normal. when you adjust the shoes by the proper adjuster it'll stop doing that.
then and only then IF the e brake lever has too much play would you go under the frame and adjust the cable linkage. which is highly unlikely needed if it was working before.
then and only then IF the e brake lever has too much play would you go under the frame and adjust the cable linkage. which is highly unlikely needed if it was working before.
highdesertranger
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"I've noticed that when I pump the brakes a little bit, they become tighter and more effective"
your brakes are out of adjustment or you have air in the system. the driving back wards stepping on the brakes to adjust should only be done as a final finish adjustment if your brakes are way out of adjustment(which yours seem to be) you would have to drive backwards all day. highdesertranger
your brakes are out of adjustment or you have air in the system. the driving back wards stepping on the brakes to adjust should only be done as a final finish adjustment if your brakes are way out of adjustment(which yours seem to be) you would have to drive backwards all day. highdesertranger
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I'm thinking air in the system somewhere. The brake pedal should feel exactly the same "every" time with no pumping needed.highdesertranger said:
About the driving backwards to adjust, I should have mentioned this is only maintenance for an already adjusted healthy set of brakes. That part should have already been done after sliding the hub's back on.
1 Usually this means air is in the system which means the system needs to be bleed. If both rear wheel cylinders were replaced as they should be in pairs and there is no leaking at the line bleeder or under the dust caps of the cylinder sometimes tapping the cylinder lightly with a small hammer causes the trapped air bubbles that sometimes cling to the inside surfaces to release and travel to the bleeder and then can be bleed by opening the bleeder while under pressure and closing the bleeder before all pressure is released. Fluid will appear milky or white in color with air in it , clear just like it came out of the can with no air is what you want. In my experience bleeding works best if the shoes are adjusted so the wheel cylinder is not at its limits of travel. Drum brakes need a little pressure on the wheel cylinder cups to keep them sealed to the cylinder or they will allow air to be sucked back into the system. I have not worked on any medium duty truck newer than 1990. A good Haynes manual and any other factory model based manual should have pictures and diagrams along with written procedures that explain this and show locations of parts. A good mechanic spends a lot of time studying these, but to be a great mechanic there has to have been hands on experience, the manuals just help you make less mistakes. 2 Yes, every time you hit the brakes while backing it should lever the pawl if there is too much movement. Even under hard braking the pawl can only adjust the star gear a few teeth as usual wear is slight. When out of adjustment by more that a few clicks several hard applications may be necessary that is why getting shoes adjusted close to begin with and wearing them in and readjusted again manually is usually necessary. HDR is right that the most common mistake in replacing brake shoes is failure to get the initial adjustment correct and therefore the follow up once the shoes wear in or seated shoes adjusted correctly. A today's great mechanic should not let a vehicle out of the shop without a test drive. A today's good mechanic may have just missed a step in making the adjustment causing this. This is why if your physically and mentally able to work on your own vehicle today you are better off doing so while owning older vehicles that will need work. Otherwise if your like me and unable you are just gonna have to buy new or be really lucky.
bardo said:
This is true but since he has only owned it a short period of time it is best to make sure it was never over adjusted and with new shoes installed completely compressing the wheel cylinder preventing proper adjustment and bleeding. Even slightly thicker or thinner lining on the brake shoe can affect this and is why it is adjustable.
Gary68 said:
Yes, I plan to go back to the shop. Likely in the next two days, though I'm sure they'll tell me they're all full and don't have room for it at the moment. That seems to happen when the work is going to be free because they have to fix a problem they created or something they overlooked. I'm speaking generically here.
No, Gary, I didn't go to the shop you found. You were recommending as I was searching, it was all happening at the same time and I picked my place and made a reservation before I read your post.
Tom
