Drum brake job - 1993 Ford E-350
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here's what rockauto offers
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1993,e-350,5.8l+v8,1117718,brake+&+wheel+hub,drum,1744
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1993,e-350,5.8l+v8,1117718,brake+&+wheel+hub,drum,1744
here's something
on my 77 chevy dually the rear leaf springs are so close to the wheel backing plate that i dont see how you could get to the wheel cylinder bolts without dropping the rear end but since i dropped my rear end... there is barely enough room to get a wrench in there to bleed the brakes
on my 77 chevy dually the rear leaf springs are so close to the wheel backing plate that i dont see how you could get to the wheel cylinder bolts without dropping the rear end but since i dropped my rear end... there is barely enough room to get a wrench in there to bleed the brakes
Great ... something else to worry about.
Well, they're finally might be a bright side to my leaf springs being worn / worn out. Maybe they're hanging down out of the way so I can get to all the stuff that you couldn't get to.
Tom
Well, they're finally might be a bright side to my leaf springs being worn / worn out. Maybe they're hanging down out of the way so I can get to all the stuff that you couldn't get to.
Tom
highdesertranger
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a note, ask for the country of origin. they know. go through all the major brands Bendix, Raybestos, Wagner. they can get them all don't settle for what they want to sell you. highdesertranger
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For another reference, try Summit Racing... I will be ordering all 4 struts for my mother's caddy soon. Best price anywhere.
https://www.summitracing.com
https://www.summitracing.com
Looking through my build-out photos, I realized that I had pictures of my brake drums, at least from the outside. I'm wondering if those non-lug holes in the drum might be the holes we've been discussing in which to insert a bolt to pry the drum off?
Photo attached.
Tom
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Photo attached.
Tom
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Attachments
highdesertranger
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that appears to be a slip on drum and I don't see any threaded holes. actually I have never seen those threaded holes on a 1 ton full floating axle. spray a lubricant around the studs and hub then tap it a few times with a hammer. it should pop right off. if it comes loose but won't come off you probably have a ridge. if so you need to back the adjuster off, then the drum will come right off. highdesertranger
UPDATE:
I think I got Bardo's joke now. Those holes in the drum are huge; much too large to be the ones for bolts to break the drum loose.
-----
Progress:
A lot was accomplished yesterday, but the job didn't fix all problems. I'm going to explain, as briefly as possible, but it might be a bit long-winded. I'd appreciate opinions from anyone who can hang in there and read it.
Yesterday, despite it taking over 10 hours and dodging thunderstorms, I replaced the drums, shoes, and all springs, so those parts are new. Had a friendly extra set of hands (seemed mandatory) and I had to also get some professional help involving a larger hammer to get one of the drums off. Unfortunately, I could not replace the wheel cylinders. More on that below. It is now all reassembled and working, mostly. I think there is air in the lines, despite not changing the wheel cylinders. That is a mystery and needs to be fixed soon.
Obstacles:
I'll include a couple of photos below. As it turns out, this drum brake setup didn't match any that I saw on YouTube, including the one that I learned from. The springs were difficult to get off and nearly impossible to get back on, even with four hands working on it. However, the biggest difference, on mine, is that there is a bolt at the top of the drum hardware that holds some of the hardware to the backing plate. That bolt gives the parking brake lever a pivot point and secures the parking brake cable among possibly other things. That bolt, when in place, also prevents the wheel cylinder from being removed.
The first obstacle is that the hardware retaining bolt cannot be removed easily or maybe not at all. It has a nut on the back side of the backing plate and that nut is corroded in place. I also suspect corrosion along the bolt within the bolt hole. That is a special bolt (of course), so if it has corrosion along it, it will likely be hell getting it out.
To complicate matters further, to some degree, the nut on the brake line going into the wheel cylinder is also corroded such that it likely won't spin freely on the brake line. There was some concern that trying to loosen that nut would twist and maybe sever the brake line, creating a big new problem. Although I had the parts and really wanted to do it, for those reasons, I did not attempt to replace the wheel cylinders. And that is a problem because one of them began leaking during the brake job.
So, at the moment, my brakes work, but are very squishy. Most of the currently available braking power comes in the last 2" of the pedal range. Despite that, I don't seem to be losing brake fluid. I've been checking the reservoir often.
-----
It seems to me that the following things must be done and also that I cannot do them myself:
1. Replace the brake lines to the rear brakes. That is needed to facilitate the replacement of the wheel cylinders and to allow proper function and future maintenance. I've been told that you can't just buy them, but rather that they have to be made.
2. Remove that retaining bolt, one way or another. I hate to contemplate it, but I'm wondering if it will have to be drilled out, sort of like drilling out an old rivet.
3. Replace the remaining brake hardware (parking brake cable, etc.)
4. Replace the wheel cylinders. Should be a piece of cake after the hardware retaining bolt is removed and the brake line is replaced.
5. Replace that retaining bolt and nut. Easy after the old one is gone. One oddity: In the Ford diagram, it shows the nut on the front side. My installation has the bolt head on the front side and the nut on the back. The Ford tech who I consulted said my installation position is correct, but the diagram makes more sense to me (easier access to the nut).
6. Bleed the brakes. It seems that this step needs to be done ASAP, and then again after the brake lines and wheel cylinders are replaced.
----------
According to the parts guy at the local Ford dealership, that hardware retaining bolt looks like this:
http://ebayimages.nexpart.com/images/3501897_53d17acb58222.gif
It is sort of funny (now) and typical that the bolt can be ordered, but the nut for it is obsolete. I've got the bolts on order and will get some compatible locking nuts from the hardware store. I'm getting these bolts to have them on hand just in case I find a way to finish this job.
-----
Challenges:
1. How to fix the immediate "squishy brake" syndrome. My plan is to bleed the brakes and see if that helps. If that doesn't help, I'm sort of stuck on ideas.
2. How to manage the leaky wheel cylinder (drivers side) until such time that it can be replaced.
3. How to select the right type of person/shop to replace the brake line. Apparently, that isn't done by people who ordinarily slap on pads and shoes. I assume that I'd get the same person to replace my wheel cylinders at the same time. I don't know what kind of person or shop to look for.
4. How to do this and not get scalped. Big O Tires originally quoted about $750 to do this brake job. They did that without knowing about the corrosion and the likely need for a brake line replacement. I thought that was exorbitant and that the job could be done cheaper and without a lot of fuss. I was maybe half right. I've got about $230 invested in this job so far, but I'm not out of the woods yet. Just for comparison, a shop in Phoenix quoted $2,000 for the brake job, which was totally insane, but they estimated it thinking it was the type that required removing the axle (it isn't). So, that's the range of insanity around pricing, and adding the vehicle's age and challenge getting parts, I need to be very careful picking the mechanic to do this.
OK, I guess that's enough for now. l look forward to any ideas or suggestions. See photos below.
Tom
----------
Front side showing the retaining bolt at the top (flat head on that bolt -- the ridges on the bolt shaft hold it still when tightening the nut, etc):
----------
The back side showing the two wheel cylinder nuts, and above them, that one corroded nut for the hardware retaining bolt in question:
I think I got Bardo's joke now. Those holes in the drum are huge; much too large to be the ones for bolts to break the drum loose.
-----
Progress:
A lot was accomplished yesterday, but the job didn't fix all problems. I'm going to explain, as briefly as possible, but it might be a bit long-winded. I'd appreciate opinions from anyone who can hang in there and read it.
Yesterday, despite it taking over 10 hours and dodging thunderstorms, I replaced the drums, shoes, and all springs, so those parts are new. Had a friendly extra set of hands (seemed mandatory) and I had to also get some professional help involving a larger hammer to get one of the drums off. Unfortunately, I could not replace the wheel cylinders. More on that below. It is now all reassembled and working, mostly. I think there is air in the lines, despite not changing the wheel cylinders. That is a mystery and needs to be fixed soon.
Obstacles:
I'll include a couple of photos below. As it turns out, this drum brake setup didn't match any that I saw on YouTube, including the one that I learned from. The springs were difficult to get off and nearly impossible to get back on, even with four hands working on it. However, the biggest difference, on mine, is that there is a bolt at the top of the drum hardware that holds some of the hardware to the backing plate. That bolt gives the parking brake lever a pivot point and secures the parking brake cable among possibly other things. That bolt, when in place, also prevents the wheel cylinder from being removed.
The first obstacle is that the hardware retaining bolt cannot be removed easily or maybe not at all. It has a nut on the back side of the backing plate and that nut is corroded in place. I also suspect corrosion along the bolt within the bolt hole. That is a special bolt (of course), so if it has corrosion along it, it will likely be hell getting it out.
To complicate matters further, to some degree, the nut on the brake line going into the wheel cylinder is also corroded such that it likely won't spin freely on the brake line. There was some concern that trying to loosen that nut would twist and maybe sever the brake line, creating a big new problem. Although I had the parts and really wanted to do it, for those reasons, I did not attempt to replace the wheel cylinders. And that is a problem because one of them began leaking during the brake job.
So, at the moment, my brakes work, but are very squishy. Most of the currently available braking power comes in the last 2" of the pedal range. Despite that, I don't seem to be losing brake fluid. I've been checking the reservoir often.
-----
It seems to me that the following things must be done and also that I cannot do them myself:
1. Replace the brake lines to the rear brakes. That is needed to facilitate the replacement of the wheel cylinders and to allow proper function and future maintenance. I've been told that you can't just buy them, but rather that they have to be made.
2. Remove that retaining bolt, one way or another. I hate to contemplate it, but I'm wondering if it will have to be drilled out, sort of like drilling out an old rivet.
3. Replace the remaining brake hardware (parking brake cable, etc.)
4. Replace the wheel cylinders. Should be a piece of cake after the hardware retaining bolt is removed and the brake line is replaced.
5. Replace that retaining bolt and nut. Easy after the old one is gone. One oddity: In the Ford diagram, it shows the nut on the front side. My installation has the bolt head on the front side and the nut on the back. The Ford tech who I consulted said my installation position is correct, but the diagram makes more sense to me (easier access to the nut).
6. Bleed the brakes. It seems that this step needs to be done ASAP, and then again after the brake lines and wheel cylinders are replaced.
----------
According to the parts guy at the local Ford dealership, that hardware retaining bolt looks like this:
http://ebayimages.nexpart.com/images/3501897_53d17acb58222.gif
It is sort of funny (now) and typical that the bolt can be ordered, but the nut for it is obsolete. I've got the bolts on order and will get some compatible locking nuts from the hardware store. I'm getting these bolts to have them on hand just in case I find a way to finish this job.
-----
Challenges:
1. How to fix the immediate "squishy brake" syndrome. My plan is to bleed the brakes and see if that helps. If that doesn't help, I'm sort of stuck on ideas.
2. How to manage the leaky wheel cylinder (drivers side) until such time that it can be replaced.
3. How to select the right type of person/shop to replace the brake line. Apparently, that isn't done by people who ordinarily slap on pads and shoes. I assume that I'd get the same person to replace my wheel cylinders at the same time. I don't know what kind of person or shop to look for.
4. How to do this and not get scalped. Big O Tires originally quoted about $750 to do this brake job. They did that without knowing about the corrosion and the likely need for a brake line replacement. I thought that was exorbitant and that the job could be done cheaper and without a lot of fuss. I was maybe half right. I've got about $230 invested in this job so far, but I'm not out of the woods yet. Just for comparison, a shop in Phoenix quoted $2,000 for the brake job, which was totally insane, but they estimated it thinking it was the type that required removing the axle (it isn't). So, that's the range of insanity around pricing, and adding the vehicle's age and challenge getting parts, I need to be very careful picking the mechanic to do this.
OK, I guess that's enough for now. l look forward to any ideas or suggestions. See photos below.
Tom
----------
Front side showing the retaining bolt at the top (flat head on that bolt -- the ridges on the bolt shaft hold it still when tightening the nut, etc):
----------
The back side showing the two wheel cylinder nuts, and above them, that one corroded nut for the hardware retaining bolt in question:
Attachments
there is no room between the brake bracket and wheel cylinder?
the brake line nut in the pic looks fine,on those i use vice grips(dont have the wrenches) just enough to get a grip,dont crush it and tap hammer or whatever,will come right loose
shock will loosen bolts/nuts easier then muscle
i do gravity bleeds,fill master cylinder,leave cap loose so no vacuum occurs,open bleed valve on wheel cylinder and wait
the brake line nut in the pic looks fine,on those i use vice grips(dont have the wrenches) just enough to get a grip,dont crush it and tap hammer or whatever,will come right loose
shock will loosen bolts/nuts easier then muscle
i do gravity bleeds,fill master cylinder,leave cap loose so no vacuum occurs,open bleed valve on wheel cylinder and wait
highdesertranger
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first off if you have a leaky wheel cylinder you have a leak. there is no way to get rid if the squishy pedal or to bleed the brakes if you have a leaking cyl. if it leaks enough it will soak the shoes ruining them. if it leaks enough and brake fluid gets on the hub seal it will ruin that to and you will have a whole new headache.
that cyl. should come off without messing with that bolt. get the correct wrench to take the line off, a flare nut wrench. if you mess up the line so be it have a spare ready to go.
BTW if in an emergency you need to drive it pinch the rubber line with vise grips. you will only have front brakes then, drive very carefully. highdesertranger
that cyl. should come off without messing with that bolt. get the correct wrench to take the line off, a flare nut wrench. if you mess up the line so be it have a spare ready to go.
BTW if in an emergency you need to drive it pinch the rubber line with vise grips. you will only have front brakes then, drive very carefully. highdesertranger
Quality line wrenches have the inside corners drilled out so the wrench contacts the center portion of the flat surface of the nut, it can not round off the corner without completely shearing the nut off the line. Think SnapOn not Craftsman or Mac. Lots of penetrating oil and abuse your new expensive SnapOn line wrench by hitting it with a ball peen hammer. The same thing works for the bleeder screw as well. If it is in good shape then it may be possible to lightly hone the wheel cylinder in place and replace the worn rubber cups and seals hopefully fixing the leak. I would think there would be enough room to wiggle out the wheel cylinder and replace it, but if not try to rebuild it in place.
highdesertranger
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I forgot if you pinch the rubber line with vise grips it's a good idea to replace it. highdesertranger
