Debunking Solar Myths?

[BradKW]

Ok, so I've spent some time studying the information "Bob" has put up at:  https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/the-rv-battery-charging-puzzle-2/

Its isn't short, and takes some time to work through. The guy definitely has a chip on his shoulder, and the recurring theme of "Don't Believe The Lies" really has the tone of someone who's preaching with an end goal of trying to sell me something. He repeats a number of times "I'm not here to sell Anything", which honestly kept making me think there was going to be something at the end where he tried to sell me something.

However, he did not. In fact, even a link to an available publication (by another person) is a free download.

I would certainly suggest reading through this whether you're planning on solar or already have it. I'm attaching a poll above, because I'd really like some feedback on what he's saying. Much of it seems common sense, but there are many things that I don't know nearly enough about to even judge...especially in regards to charge controller adjustable voltages and converters.

 

[IGBT]

He says you don't need a generator.

We were deep in the woods in a state part in the Northwest with 1100 watts of solar panels. During the day I got about 18 watts. Tall trees in the Northwest = no sun. If we had not had a generator, we would have needed to move to recharge after a couple of days.

 

[TMG51]

I've never felt the need for a generator, although if it rains for several days consecutively my batteries start getting low. I make it work. I find generators to be a bit obnoxious.

 

[LeeRevell]

His opinion does not trump someone else's reality.  What works for him may not be a "One size fits all" proposition for others.  Read his stuff, read others, do your due diligence in studying, and make your own choices.  A good solar system is too expensive to just take one guy's word.  Research it!

 

[BradKW]

His opinion does not trump someone else's reality.  What works for him may not be a "One size fits all" proposition for others.  Read his stuff, read others, do your due diligence in studying, and make your own choices.  A good solar system is too expensive to just take one guy's word.  Research it!

I certainly agree that one should do their homework...which is of course what I'm doing

But what really stuck me about this article was his claims that many of the people who are supposed to be Pros, who people look to for answers, including product reps from known suppliers, really don't know what their talking about. And he really seems to build a solid case for it with lots of examples. And his premis definitely strikes a chord with me, for while I am just learning about solar, I can absolutely draw parallels to many experiences of my own with product and manufacture reps that I deal with in my field. I've both seen and been a part of their disasters.

So while I agree with you to an extent, I'd also really like to know (for example) how valid his breakdown of charge controllers is? What about adjusting input voltages? aabout amp/volt meters in effect lying? Are converters really as useless as it would appear?

These strike me as things that go beyond "opinion" and should have factual answers it seems to me...

 

[ldmccain]

I had no knowledge when I first started playing with solar.  When I found his page I started testing what I had. (45watt kit from Harborfreight and a 12volt "deep cycle")  Everything I tested matched with what he was preaching. Kits have poor charger controllers, winging is to small, the battery I had wasn't really deep cycle...  

Now in the RV I have real 6volt deep cycle batteries, 2 100watt panels, a way to expensive controller, and a battery monitor.  From MS to ND and back last summer I never felt the need to run the generator. 
I only ran a cell booster, 2 laptops 10 hours a day weekdays, water pump and led lights as needed.  

Parking did take some planning to make sure the panels were in direct sunlight as much a possible. When I head out Jan 1st I am adding a 110 coffee maker and a 1.1cubic foot 12v fridge; will see what happens.  I expect if anything I will add another 100watt panel first.

Making it past the preaching took some work, but all the information I've tested has been spot on.
I still don't know anything about solar, but what I've installed works for me.

 

[lterry]

I'm trying to grasp it all but my brain...I don't even know how a light switch works. What my brain is able to grasp is buy big wires, make them the right length, position them properly.

 

[johnny b]

While some of HandyBob's site goes back a few years, he has updated sections in 2014 & 2015.
Lots of good info to incorporate into overall research.

 

[Canine]

Damn,I voted "angry old man"before I realized the poll wasn't about me.

 

[Reverse Engineer]

The key is minimizing your electric usage. I can work on one 250W Solar Panel for communications and lighting with no problem. Refrigeration takes another panel unless it is cold outside. The wind turbine contributes decently if its a windy day.

Generators are invaluable additions for days with poor sunshine or wind. You also want a good Deep Cycle battery.

When you get down to the nitty gritty, have a pedal power generator to keep your cell phone and diode lights charged up

 

[SoulRaven]

I think any advice against having a generator, even if just for a backup, is highly questionable. I camp in the forests, and have spent winters in places where you might not see the sun for a month a more.

For nearly 2 years now, I have been charging my house battery solely while driving, without the need for my generator or any solar panels. BUT... I have used my generator numerous times for other uses during that time, like for running A/C while selling fireworks in 110°+ weather. Since my A/C is 12v, I suppose solar would have worked, but it would have been a huge pain setting it up to work inside the fireworks stand. With my generator it was very easy to keep the batteries charged that were powering the whole stand.

 

[Matlock]

I'll pass on the pole taking but will throw in my 2¢ on solar reality.

Advice given on the net is most often a broad-brushed statement that does not apply across the board, around the world. Yesterdays breakthrough is today's history. And I'm sure you've noticed on the web that many folks are doing some scary stuff that Darwin will eventually correct.

Unfortunately the journey into solar energy requires the individual to sort through the maze of terms, defining their requirement to their location (s) and the ability to pay. Once there, it's a piece of cake.

My advice is the same as was given to me, I eventually called a solar controller manufacturer. Tell them what you think you want to do with solar and ask them what components they think you need and why. Don't buy anything yet. Repeat with the next manufacturer.

As to generators...... you might have a use for one in your application/location but that would be the last thing on the list to purchase.

 

[IGBT]

If you run a compressor fridge vs propane and you camp in the woods, you will need *something* other than solar.   Maybe if it is just running your vehicle alternator a couple hours every other day.

Alternatively, you could climb up to the top of the trees (about 150 feet here in the Northwest) and put your panels up there.

 

[jimindenver]

Just remember that Bob isn't the last word on solar, in fact it really is just an opinion on how it should work. Jack Mayer has another and on and on. No one can be the last word because no one is in the same conditions, with the same needs, budget, roof, etc.

Once you have a grasp the forums are the real gold nugget. Many many people doing the same as Handy bob, just in a easier to swallow fashion. They will tell you what they have, why they have it and how it works. My own concept of a solar generator instead of a battery charger you will not find on any blog. Now that I've done it some are listening but others will still say that's not how it works for them.

That's why you don't want to limit yourself to just one source of info and you are not going to digest it over night.

 

[lterry]

I never saw where he said not to have generators, just to only use them judiciously and that you don't need them 99.9% of the time if you have your battery bank set up properly.

 

[jimindenver]

A generator is part of a balanced system. We haven't needed our generator in three years, Our bank can hold us for at least a week. Our solar can produce enough in overcast conditions to cover the rig but there will be a time and place when the conditions stay bad for long enough that we will need the generator to catch up. I am not risking damaging a bank that would cost 2 grand to replace over a concept or because someone told me to.

 

[BobBski]

I've never used solar but have spent many headachey hours the last couple months studying it. . Probably too many hours . I do know that once I come up with what I think might be a well balanced and efficient setup, I'll be posting it up here before purchase. Kinda figure I'll also have a generator too in case I decide to stay in a warmer climate for extended periods in the summer...or even a winter in Alaska where the sun doesn't shine much. Location of where and when we stay dictates a lot on type of power we need. BTW...I did enjoy Bob's article as well as many others I've read...as well as many forum posts. I'm thankful to all the authors who took the time to write on the subject. Thanks for the headaches y'all . I enjoy them.

 

[ccbreder]

The blog says Bob doesn't need a generator. NOT you don't need a generator.

 

[SternWake]

The entire issue with living off lead acid batteries is they must be fully charged regularly, as often as possible, and stay as close to fully charged as possible, for as long as possible, whenever possible, and 99% of people can't be bothered to do anything more than look for a green light to determine if the battery is actually fully charged.


Achieving a full charge takes time, at absorption voltage.  There is no way around this.  ALL charging sources do not hold absorption voltage for long enough, unless they can be programmed to do so, or are manual chargers which must be monitored. 

 Ideal absorption voltage and duration at which it is held is a moving target, depending on the specific battery, its temperature, and the depth of its discharge, and how long it has been since the last equalization charge or an actual true 100% recharge.

Getting to absorption voltage earlier in daylight hours via solar has a much better chance of allowing absorption voltage to be held long enough to actually fully charge the battery, before the next discharge cycle begins.

Any process/method/technique/product which allows the batteries to reach ( the correct) absorption voltage earlier in the day is going to make for happier batteries, which perform better for longer.


A battery as it ages is like a gas tank which keeps getting smaller.  Eventually that gas tank is going to get too small to meet the user's needs.

When the gas tank is still big enough, the user declares everything 'just fine'.  It is 'just fine' until the day it is not, and for most this happen unexpectedly.  One day it is just fine, then next day it is not.  This can be a big deal, or an event barely worth a shrug, depending on the user.

If/ when the batteries fail to meet longevity expectations, then the user either blames the battery, or very Unhuman like, they realize their charging regimen/equipment/ knowledge was lacking in the first place, and perhaps try and remedy it.

I've not read Handybob's rant in a long while, What I took away from it years ago was to use a higher absorption voltage, use fatter wire for less voltage drop, and move the charge controller closer to the batteries, again for less voltage drop.  All very logical and does not break any laws of Physics.

All of these take aways effectively recharge the batteries better, allowing them to perform better for longer and yield a better $/Cycle ratio.

Not having a solar charge controller which allows one to change absorption voltage......unideal.
A plug in charging source which prematurely drops from absorption voltage, is a 5 fingered prostate exam.
Thinking 95% charged is good enough, has one's gas tank shrink much faster than one who gets to 100%

What gets 12v lead acid battery newbies into trouble is the belief in blinking green lights, that when a voltage regulator/charge controller/ automatic charging source drops from absorption voltage to float voltage, that this means the battery is fully charged.

It does not mean the battery is fully charged, it only means absorption voltage was held as long as it was programmed to do so.
  The blinking green light mocks any human who believes it.  Faith in the green light is supremely ignorant, unless one can actually test it and verify.

With a hydrometer on a flooded battery, or with an AGM battery, when amperage required to maintain absorption voltage decreases to 0.5% of battery capacity. or .5a amps per 100Ah of capacity.

This is the only way to actually know when the battery is full.  There is no electronic wizadry commen in any product sold today which occurs within a charging source, which can determine that a battery is actually full or not.  Some will proclaim they can do this, but it is entirely voltage based and since one battery can be 13.16v fully charged and the next one be only 12.62, voltage based claims as to state of charge are meaningless.

Beware of claims from the 'just fine' brigade.  Their batteries could fail tomorrow.

Now 'Just fine' for X amount of time/ accumulated cycles, that carries some weight, but keep in mind human proclivities when making internet claims.

Achieving excellent battery life is no simple exercise.  It can be taken to extremes which make no financial sense, or cause so much worry that it makes no sense from a sanity point of view.

One can achieve acceptable battery life with less than Ideal.  Most people who do research can and do.  

The lead acid battery's biggest enemy is ignorance on the part of the person cycling the battery. 
 
Second is the fact that so many batteries with a 'deep cycle' sticker are much much closer to a starting battery in construction than compared to a real deep cycle battery like a golf cart battery.

Third is Adherence to the beliefs/claims  of the 'just fine' brigade and human tendency to believe what they want to hear.

Use a hydrometer, or an Ammeter to determine 'just fine'.  

Any claims as to 'just fine' take with a large grain of salt, as it means "Okay, so far", for these people might be surprised than tomorrow or next week, it is not.

 

[Canine]

OK. I'm usually too timid to offer my opinion but I'm going to jump in anyway.I have to confess I know nothing about float voltage vs charge voltage vs absorption voltage.I don't see how monitoring what is happening would benefit my situation.My input current is constantly changing due to the action of my controllers.My outgoing current is constantly changing due to whether the Refrigerator is running,the dishwasher is running,the clothes washer is running,the ceiling fans are running or tvs or various other things are in operational mode.There have been many days in rainy weather when I suspect my batteries have operated between 60 and 80 % for a week or more.They are Deka GC batteries and if they have lost any capacity,it is too small for me to notice.They still max out at 14.3 volts after 4-5 hrs on a sunny day and provide me with all the power I can use.There may be a difference in the long run(I've only had these batteries since June /2010)If they die a year before they would if I obsessed over them,so be it.Life is too short and I have better things to do.