Cummins Canoe (A Stepvan Story)

[PlethoraOfGuns]

Thanks! We'll see how long that braze will hold. It's in a low stress area, so I imagine it will be fine.

 

[PlethoraOfGuns]

Oh boy. It's been a depressing time lately. It appears the van does need an exorcism. Was driving through the mountains of West Virginia with my copilot lady when all of a sudden the van shot all its oil out the exhaust and lost power. Pulled over, assessed, filled back with oil, limped off the highway. Smoke was everywhere, but that's fine, only a few miles to get to a friends house. Then the transmission wouldn't shift out of first gear. Ok fine, we'll limp along the shoulder with the hazards on. But of course, the hazards broke. We then gave up and pulled into a Hardee's parking lot. My copilot went in store for some food. She came out and handed me some ice cream to soothe my distress. I go to use the spoon, and of course, the spoon breaks. I give up, what does one do?

The van as it sat in the parking lot. Another blown engine, possible blown transmission, broken hazards most likely a flasher relay, and a broken spoon in which to attempt to eat ice cream with. Called a tow truck for this one. Parked it in yard at friends house, borrowed a car, came back to the van two weeks later. That's where things get worse, way worse...

 

[bullfrog !]

How big can one’s emergency fund be? Never big enough it seems!

 

[Gr8ful]

I've always been a Cummins 6BT 12 valve fan & my last was a '93 1 ton dually 12' flatbed made the last month they made 12 valves with no computer. Your tranny may be OK as it sounds like it's in the limp home mode. I had one do that & everyone said rebuild but turned out to be a $60 switch. Was it a FedEx truck?

 

[datac]

>>> what does one do?

Ah, ..... Cleanse your desire for that darn diesel ? Sorry, Someone has to say it. Sorry, Really.

I feel really bad for you. The ultimate vehicle, And you know I know it ! .....But with a problematic powerplant. Ugh.

3 years you have been living out the stepvan dream, Seems most of the time fighting Engine troubles. Unless of course you put 20-30K on her without me knowing ?

I know you did not like my earlier views on just running a Small Block Gas V8 engine, but I would just LOVE to see the real $ math here.

Lots of people do not like to see the real math, you know, miles traveled, fuel costs, repair cost totals, compared to what perhaps a late model LT conversion with a good 4L80 might have done and its 10-12mpg. I've just never seen the diesel numbers work out for a vehicle like this.

I always got 10mph with a low powered quadrajet carbed V8. I can't imagine how nice a late model would have been, and dang,,, they are running problematic for 300K. (and dont stink doing it).

So, I'm sure we all want to know... Are you going to stick yet another 4BT in it ?

 

[KarlH]

>>> what does one do?

Ah, ..... Cleanse your desire for that darn diesel ? Sorry, Someone has to say it. Sorry, Really.

Most of the good 4BTs have been bought up by now. Even if you can find a good one, the mount design that was used when fleets installed them in Grummans in the 1990s is terrible (it shakes enough to break things) and hard to improve due to space constraints.

And the diaphram lift pump that came with most 4BTs (i.e those with Bosch VE injection pumps) is unreliable and costs about $250 to convert to a piston pump.

You can actually find some good B Series engines in South America, but I think shipping one up to the US wouldn't be economical.

 

[bullfrog !]

It seems it might be in your particular situation that this particular drive train isn’t working out for you. It might be time to “quit kicking a dead horse” as my uncle used to say.

 

[PlethoraOfGuns]

How big can one’s emergency fund be? Never big enough it seems!

That fund ran out awhile ago! Currently living on a friends lawn doing odd jobs to get by.

I've always been a Cummins 6BT 12 valve fan & my last was a '93 1 ton dually 12' flatbed made the last month they made 12 valves with no computer. Your tranny may be OK as it sounds like it's in the limp home mode. I had one do that & everyone said rebuild but turned out to be a $60 switch. Was it a FedEx truck?

No idea what's wrong with the transmission. The least of my worries as the transmission should be an easy and cheap fix regardless of what went wrong with it. But it's not possible to have a limp home mode.

>>> what does one do?

Ah, ..... Cleanse your desire for that darn diesel ? Sorry, Someone has to say it. Sorry, Really.

I feel really bad for you. The ultimate vehicle, And you know I know it ! .....But with a problematic powerplant. Ugh.

3 years you have been living out the stepvan dream, Seems most of the time fighting Engine troubles. Unless of course you put 20-30K on her without me knowing ?

I know you did not like my earlier views on just running a Small Block Gas V8 engine, but I would just LOVE to see the real $ math here.

Lots of people do not like to see the real math, you know, miles traveled, fuel costs, repair cost totals, compared to what perhaps a late model LT conversion with a good 4L80 might have done and its 10-12mpg. I've just never seen the diesel numbers work out for a vehicle like this.

I always got 10mph with a low powered quadrajet carbed V8. I can't imagine how nice a late model would have been, and dang,,, they are running problematic for 300K. (and dont stink doing it).

So, I'm sure we all want to know... Are you going to stick yet another 4BT in it ?

Luckily I haven't spent much money on engines yet. But maybe I need to save money and just buy a new one? I'm not one to deviate from stock, as that can produce even more problems.

Most of the good 4BTs have been bought up by now. Even if you can find a good one, the mount design that was used when fleets installed them in Grummans in the 1990s is terrible (it shakes enough to break things) and hard to improve due to space constraints.

And the diaphram lift pump that came with most 4BTs (i.e those with Bosch VE injection pumps) is unreliable and costs about $250 to convert to a piston pump.

You can actually find some good B Series engines in South America, but I think shipping one up to the US wouldn't be economical.

Hmmm, it seems to be a good simple mounting system on the P30 chassis. Plenty of room all around engine to work on things. One of the biggest things I like about this setup!

It seems it might be in your particular situation that this particular drive train isn’t working out for you. It might be time to “quit kicking a dead horse” as my uncle used to say.

It's not working indeed. Taking a break, going to make some money, and hopefully find a good Cummins builder to take my dead horse and make it run again.

 

[KarlH]

Hmmm, it seems to be a good simple mounting system on the P30 chassis. Plenty of room all around engine to work on things. One of the biggest things I like about this setup!

The injectors and fuel lines are definitely easy to access, much more so than they would be on a V8.

Yours is mounted at a ~7° slant to the right, isn't it? ...at least that's what I thought from your pics, and it's the way mine is mounted due to tight clearance between the VE pump and the left side of the firewall.

If so, the problem is that the 45° mounts on the P30 chassis are narrow and low, and the torque of the engine rocks it to the right. So both the vertical 2nd-order shake and the torque-induced lateral shake are pounding the right engine mount. And since the stock P30 gear ratios are too low for the 4BT, you're spending more time at higher revs where the force of that shake is worst.

 

[maki2]

You are living one of the nightmares Nomads face, costly break downs. But at least it was not an injury accident. The upside is you can still work and have a place to stay while working for funds to make the repair.

 

[PlethoraOfGuns]

The injectors and fuel lines are definitely easy to access, much more so than they would be on a V8.

Yours is mounted at a ~7° slant to the right, isn't it? ...at least that's what I thought from your pics, and it's the way mine is mounted due to tight clearance between the VE pump and the left side of the firewall.

If so, the problem is that the 45° mounts on the P30 chassis are narrow and low, and the torque of the engine rocks it to the right. So both the vertical 2nd-order shake and the torque-induced lateral shake are pounding the right engine mount. And since the stock P30 gear ratios are too low for the 4BT, you're spending more time at higher revs where the force of that shake is worst.

Everything is super easy to access, I love it! But I've actually got the engine to almost be mounted straight. It used to be clocked with the top towards the driver side. Are there better engine mounts I can get to make things better? I also cruise at about 2000rpm, so no worries there.

You are living one of the nightmares Nomads face, costly break downs. But at least it was not an injury accident. The upside is you can still work and have a place to stay while working for funds to make the repair.

Yes, I still have my health, so fortunate for that.

 

[Happy Camper]

Are you stressing the step van in ways that are unusual for them? I see the trailer behind, but I've missed some posts here and there so I'm not sure what that's for. Or how heavy it is.

I remember your initial build out and the the first engine taking a dump. The P30 also came with gas engines, so you could technically stay stock and get a less expensive drivetrain for it.

 

[KarlH]

Everything is super easy to access, I love it!

Yep There's a trick to removing the starter on mine, and some of the bolts on the VE pump are hard to reach, but just about everything else is super easy (e.g. injectors, timing case, belts, filters, lift pump, alternator, turbo).

But I've actually got the engine to almost be mounted straight. It used to be clocked with the top towards the driver side.

Yours is set up differently than mine. Did you bend the bracket that connects the engine to the mount? Or how did you adjust the angle?

Are there better engine mounts I can get to make things better? I also cruise at about 2000rpm, so no worries there.

I haven't taken the plunge yet and I'll probably make mounts from scratch*, but FarmStrong makes a mount that's allegedly better. (You have to make the chassis-side bracket yourself, though.)

They're definitely right that it's better to have the mounts close to the longitudinal center of the block. Mine uses the 3-bolt mounting faces at the front, and it vibrates more at the back, which means that it's shaking the whole driveline.

(*I'm planning to make mounts with an integral counter-balance to soak up the vertical shake and some of the torque-induced lateral and rotational vibration.)

 

[Gr8ful]

Can you make a 6 cyl 12 valve Cummins with a turbo fit? You can double the HP & torque just by manual tuning & they last forever with proper care. I thought you had an auto trans which many do have a limp mode. Would make a nice tiny house if you decide not to fix it.

 

[KarlH]

Can you make a 6 cyl 12 valve Cummins with a turbo fit? You can double the HP & torque just by manual tuning & they last forever with proper care. I thought you had an auto trans which many do have a limp mode. Would make a nice tiny house if you decide not to fix it.

A 6BT should fit in terms of length, but the oil pan might not clear.

 

[KarlH]

For what it's worth, this is what happened to the right mount on mine:



I only noticed because I happened to be working in that area when the sun was shining down through the open hood and there was daylight between the engine-side bracket and the mount. It probably shifted when I was on the highway going uphill.

 

[LargeMarge]

A 6BT should fit in terms of length, but the oil pan might not clear.

.
Modular, those engines are engineered to fit hundreds of different vehicles... including boats and stationary generators.
.
* Factory-stock -- oil pans are available in front sump, rear sump, and dry dump with remote reservoir, plus probably anything else you can imagine.
* Custom -- any machine-shop could probably fabricate a pan to fit your application.
.
This FreeInternetAdvice® comes from my experience stuffing:
* a Chevy 350ci V-8 into a 1953 Austin Healey for road-race rallies
* a Chevy 454ci V-8 into a 1958 Bentley for quarter-mile drag-racing
* Volkswagen flat-fours and Porsche flat-sixes into aircraft
* a 6BT into a [unknown year] vintage garden-tractor for the Unlimited Super-Modified class sled-pulls... with a custom eight-foot tall six-inch diameter vertical exhaust complete with flapper

... but the so-called 'judges' 'disqualified' us because our wheelie-bars offended their delicate sensitivities.
Wusses.

 

[KarlH]

Can you make a 6 cyl 12 valve Cummins with a turbo fit? You can double the HP & torque just by manual tuning...

I think that a stock 6BT would have plenty of power. My stock 4BT will pull my 15' stepvan up modest grades at 55mph with an 1,800 lb. load in the back. And that's despite it currently being geared too low and hitting the engine's RPM governor (which cuts fuel flow) at around that speed.

 

[KarlH]

* Factory-stock -- oil pans are available in front sump, rear sump, and dry dump with remote reservoir, plus probably anything else you can imagine.

I'd never seen those, thanks

I've toyed with doing the conversion, but it seemed like PlethoraOfGuns wanted to stick with a 4BT, and I didn't want to hijack his thread.

(He might actually be able to use a stock pan, but the rear sump version will come very close to the back of the crossmember on an independent front suspension P30 and also protrude below it slightly. A front sump pan will come close to both the crossmember and the steering linkage.)

* Volkswagen flat-fours and Porsche flat-sixes into aircraft

I've heard of Bug and Corvair engines, but no Porsches until now (unless you count the Bug). What did you put them into?

 

[PlethoraOfGuns]

Sorry everyone. I had to drop everything and fly to Turkey to rescue a friend from deep down in a cave.

Are you stressing the step van in ways that are unusual for them? I see the trailer behind, but I've missed some posts here and there so I'm not sure what that's for. Or how heavy it is.

I remember your initial build out and the the first engine taking a dump. The P30 also came with gas engines, so you could technically stay stock and get a less expensive drivetrain for it.

I wouldn't say the engine is being stressed. That trailer weighed 1200lbs and that engine was the second best engine we've had so far. I will surely blow the gas engine up as well.

Yep There's a trick to removing the starter on mine, and some of the bolts on the VE pump are hard to reach, but just about everything else is super easy (e.g. injectors, timing case, belts, filters, lift pump, alternator, turbo).


Yours is set up differently than mine. Did you bend the bracket that connects the engine to the mount? Or how did you adjust the angle?


I haven't taken the plunge yet and I'll probably make mounts from scratch*, but FarmStrong makes a mount that's allegedly better. (You have to make the chassis-side bracket yourself, though.)

They're definitely right that it's better to have the mounts close to the longitudinal center of the block. Mine uses the 3-bolt mounting faces at the front, and it vibrates more at the back, which means that it's shaking the whole driveline.

(*I'm planning to make mounts with an integral counter-balance to soak up the vertical shake and some of the torque-induced lateral and rotational vibration.)

Didn't bend any brackets. The engine mounts go into slots on the frame that allow you to rotate engine maybe 10 degrees in either direction. I can understand the benefit of having the mounts on the center of the engine. But I really just want a running engine.

Can you make a 6 cyl 12 valve Cummins with a turbo fit? You can double the HP & torque just by manual tuning & they last forever with proper care. I thought you had an auto trans which many do have a limp mode. Would make a nice tiny house if you decide not to fix it.

A 6bt could fit. I did all the measurements and I don't think its worth my time and energy to do all the modifications. The 4bt has all the power I need and lots of room to work on it easily.

What I need now is a way to get van from WV to KY so I can take engine out. Mostly need help finding a good Cummins shop that can fix my woes.