College?

[offroad]

To simplify -- if you know how to WELD METAL you will find a job, and sometimes a place to stay. If you know how to SHORT ORDER COOK you will find a job and food. If you know how to tolerate silly people and help them with obvious ignorance then you can be a SALES PERSON and a manager. --- all assuming you do not have the patience for developing STEM skills, or developing other extreme talents (like music or teaching which I label useful but talent required).

 

[RobBob]

I have a son in a similar situation.  I sent him this:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/04/dr-sherri-tenpenny/better-than-college/

Best article I have read about this issue in a long time.  Hope there are some useful ideas here for you!

RobBob

 

[ZoNiE]

Go to a trade school and learn a trade. If you are gonna be on the road at such a young age, learn a skill in a trade where you can find work anywhere. A bachelors degree in liberal arts or something similar will do nothing for you and only saddle you with loans.

Trades are ideal for someone living on the road, Like Electrician, or pipe fitter. You will do better than as a general laborer.

Machinists are also in demand. Young machinists are hard to find. I wish I learned how to be a machinist, and I am an Electrical Engineer.

There are so many trades screaming for skilled people. Most kids your age only want to sit in front of a computer. Forget that. Those jobs are either overseas or behind a phone in a call center where you will be treated like crap.

 

[mconlonx]

Random thoughts on college:

Sometimes, just having the paper for a 4-yr degree does matter. Mattered when I was rising up the ranks of my current job, mattered to a friend in the IT field when he was looking for a first job -- a tech company he started with didn't care if you had a tech degree and he got his foot in the door with a BA in Russian studies. He's now mid-40s and retired comfortably. I have an English degree, possibly only more useless than a philosophy degree, but I work in publishing and am making a decent professional salary.

But...

I worked in a grocery store and learned meat cutting while working my way through college, and that particular skill has paid off in times when professional gigs went south. At one point in my life, recently, I also learned to be and worked as a bicycle mechanic, another handy skill. Both of them, I still employ on a part time basis, keeping my skills fresh, making extra money, and knowing that wherever I might end up, I can probably find some kind of work making more than minimum wage.

Having graduated with a 4yr English degree, one of the things that opened doors for me more than the Liberal Arts BA, was non-credit courses I took in graphic design and industry specific programs/apps like InDesign, Photoshop, and Adobe Illustrator. I also minored in both Business and Studio Arts - Woodworking and am continually amazed how useful that has been. If you do go the 4yr college route, explore other options and interests available to you, and focus on practical things you could be doing to line up work in your chosen field once graduated that are not necessarily related to a major or core curriculum requirements.

If I were granted a life do-over, I'd go to a 2-yr trade school and learn something like plumbing, HVAC, welding, or machining. Or nursing. And stick with it as a career with an eye toward retiring... just about now, in my mid-40s, instead of working the job I am.

But vandwelling opens up possibilities. You don't need to follow any traditional path. Working menial jobs can get you by. Or focus on finding a job/trade/vocation which is portable -- either you can move around the country and find gigs wherever you end up, or it is completely untethered to location and you can do your work on the road. Vandwelling might also open internship opportunities you might otherwise not be able to afford to take.

Big picture: what is it you want to do? Do you want work to be your life, or do you want to live your life outside of work...?

 

[Almost There]

A piece of paper matters more than you could ever know. And WILL matter for the rest of your working life!

I worked in accounting for 25 years before switching careers and I can't begin to tell you how many thousands of dollars I DIDN'T earn because I had no little piece of paper. Inside of the accountants' office I trained future degreed accountants during their articling year - they went on to earn 3 and 4 times the money I was making.

My father is another prime example. He worked in the aerospace industry for 40 years. He retired as head of the packaging design engineering group for a major player in the aerospace industry. That is where they take all the little components and make them fit inside the box whose size has been designated by the purchaser - as in 'we want it to work this way but it has to squeeze into a spot THIS small'! While he was paid well and highly respected in his field he still had to have his drawings signed off on by a degreed engineer that worked FOR him, particularly for military applications which was most of his work.

When I moved back to Canada after 14 years of living stateside I found that in today's world I couldn't even get a job here as a front desk clerk for a hotel because I didn't have a piece of paper. I worked on design of accounting systems and have excellent sales and people skills but still wasn't 'qualified' to answer phones and check guests in and out of the hotel!

Whatever you want to do in life - get the piece of paper!!

 

[akrvbob]

Or, you could decide you don't want to be another ant in the hill or drone in the hive and actually live for your happiness like you were an actual human being.

This is a quote from Aldous Huxley in “A Brave New World Revisited”

“Biologically speaking, man is a moderately gregarious, not a completely social animal—a creature more like a wolf, let us say, or an elephant, than like a bee or an ant.

In their original forms human societies bore no resemblance to the hive or the ant heap; they were merely packs.

Civilization is, among other things, the process by which primitive packs are transformed into an analogue … of the social insect’s organic communities.”

Do you want to be a wolf or an ant?

This website is devoted to embracing the life of a wolf!!  And I suspect that part of the reason you are all here is some part of you longs for the life of a wolf. But it is very frightening to let go of everything you've ever known.

Learn from the many bad examples around you, Don't be an ant--Be a wolf.
Bob

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

For an alternative theory, see Aesop's Fable re: the Grasshopper and the Ant.  And ask yourself if you REALLY want to be a grasshopper when winter comes.

Regards
John

Who thinks the words "One Size Fits All" are right up there with "The Check Is In The Mail" and "We're From The Government and We're Here To Help You".

 

[akrvbob]

My answer is 100% I would rather be the grasshopper and not the ant.

40 years of 9-5 grind misery in the vain hope of MAYBE getting 10 good years before my body starts to fail me is the single most absurd thing I've ever heard and it is a reflection of just how sick our society is that we worship the idea. IT IS INSANE!

I wonder how my good friend VonBrown feels about that stupid idea after just having a stroke at a young age. Or my good friend Scott who was killed in an auto accident 2 months ago after retiring at 60. Or another friend who is 58, living out of a Prius and just had a tripe by-pass at 58. Or my father who died at 62 who worked at a job that he hated his whole life and then retired at 60 with all the money he could ever need and was dead 2 years later.

The "One Size Fits All" idea is 40 years of preparation for the hope of 10 years of happiness. It works for a few people, but not many.

Even worse, our economy has changed so much that it works for less and less people every day. Pensions are almost gone, Social Security is woefully underfunded and the Baby Boomers are going to overwhelm it just as the workforce is shrinking drastically. Our low wage, high debt economy means the future is very, very grim for those hoping for "golden years in 20-40 years like the OP.

College used to be a good idea if you wanted to be an ant. Today it is a bad idea for nearly everybody especially if you want to have a happy life instead of just be a "good, productive member of society" ie. an ant.

Bob

 

[Almost There]

Unfortunately it's not a case of being a wolf, a grasshopper or an ant nor dare I say a chipmunk.

Having a way to support oneself at whatever level of income for how many months out of a year one chooses to work is still required unless one is intending to live completely off the land which is an entirely different situation altogether.

No one is suggesting that this young person spend the next 40 years slaving away at a grinding misery at all.

Some of us are suggesting that getting a diploma/certificate in 'something' will enable one to earn sufficient income to be able to do as they please.

Even if one chooses to live on a rather spartan budget, (which is a good thing IMO) it still remains that the money has to be earned in the first place. Earning said money at minimum wage is definitely harder than earning it at a much higher rate of pay.

Some kind of job training/certificate will allow for more freedom to choose than no education!

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Anyone notice that we haven't heard from Elizabeth since her initial post?  Wonder if we've scared her off?

Regards
John

 

[GotSmart]

Anyone notice that we haven't heard from Elizabeth since her initial post?  Wonder if we've scared her off?

Regards
John

No, She has been back and reading the thread.  Even given some thanks to a couple of posts.  Just not much to say I guess.  

Elizabeth, and comments on the discussion you started? :-/

 

[GotSmart]

My answer is 100% I would rather be the grasshopper and not the ant.

40 years of 9-5 grind misery in the vain hope of MAYBE getting 10 good years before my body starts to fail me is the single most absurd thing I've ever heard and it is a reflection of just how sick our society is that we worship the idea. IT IS INSANE!

I wonder how my good friend VonBrown feels about that stupid idea after just having a stroke at a young age. Or my good friend Scott who was killed in an auto accident 2 months ago after retiring at 60.  Or another friend who is 58, living out of a Prius and just had a tripe by-pass at 58. Or my father who died at 62 who worked at a job that he hated his whole life and then retired at 60 with all the money he could ever need and was dead 2 years later.

The "One Size Fits All" idea is 40 years of preparation for the hope of 10 years of happiness. It works for a few people, but not many.

Even worse, our economy has changed so much that it works for less and less people every day.  Pensions are almost gone, Social Security is woefully underfunded and the Baby Boomers are going to overwhelm it just as the workforce is shrinking drastically.  Our low wage, high debt economy means the future is very, very grim for those hoping for "golden years in 20-40 years like the OP.

College used to be a good idea if you wanted to be an ant. Today it is a bad idea for nearly everybody especially if you want to have a happy life instead of just be a "good, productive member of society" ie. an ant.

Bob

My daughter has a 4 year degree.  

She just got a job offer from her university.  

She has no desire to go on the road.

 

[ZoNiE]

I Have a Bachelors degree in Business, got it at 40. I also have an Associates degree in electronics. Got the AA degree in my 20's and have worked as a non-degreed engineer since. The Business degree hasn't gotten me anything other than the skills to run a business. Didn't open doors that my work ethic didn't open already.

I can't complain, If I had gotten the BSEE back in the 90's, I wouldn't be where I am now, skills wise or income wise. I'd have been drawing lines instead for about half what I earned most of my formative work years. Sometimes getting the basics and working with your hands pays off better in the long run. Sometimes it does not. I also paid for my community college as I went along, delivering pizzas, so it took me 3.5 yrs to get the 2 yr degree, but I came out with savings, a paid off little truck, and no debt.

If I were to get a do-over? I'd have joined the Air Force, stayed 20 years, then with retirement at age 38, learned to be a machinist, and in 10 years of doing that, at a young 48, would be able to work anywhere any time and as much as I wanted to or not and have a cool skill in a dying art.

I certainly would not have wasted the money and gotten student loans to get my Bachelors degree in Business. If I had gotten it 10 years earlier, perhaps it would have made a difference in the job path, but not when I did (at 40).

Do whatcha want, but at least get some sort of formal training or certificate at something you are good at, so you can earn more than the guy next to you with nothing.

 

[sprintersnale]

There was a guy living full time the a '66 VW Bus on my college ghetto street in the '80's. His living expenses were $100 a month. The two passions can be combined into a no debt education.
An education is the only investment that cannot be taken from away from you and is easily carried around by a minimalist.
I have been self employed/freelance in my major since '95. The technologies are so different than what existed in my field at that time, but, I learned how to learn, grow and morph with the changes. No employer has ever seen my diploma, but I value what's in my head.
Alas, I am a mere yearner of a completely free cheap RV living lifestyle... so I hope it's ok to post :s

 

[ilovemyvan]

Bob,
I'm sorry you hated your working years so much. That must have been terrible for you to go there every day. I'm glad that at least you have a regular pension from that place and that it helps you live the life you love. At least something good came out of it all. You hated it so much that it is difficult for you to see that not everyone feels that way about what they are doing. My husband truly enjoys is work. He gets a lot of satisfaction from it. He will turn 65 in Jan. and decided that he will cut down his hours (he physically can't do 40hrs/wk much longer) but not walk away entirely. He would miss it. Me I had both kinds of jobs. Some I really, really hated, some I really enjoyed but none I liked so much that I would choose it over retirement. There are so many possibilities out there. As mentioned several times already: No one size fits all. If you can find something you enjoy doing, work is not a misery. The trouble is to find that job.

Just my 2 cents.

Nicole

 

[Elizabeth]

Anyone notice that we haven't heard from Elizabeth since her initial post?  Wonder if we've scared her off?

Regards
John

I can assure you, none of you have scared me off I've just been trying to listen to what everyone is saying.  This has been an extremely hard decision to make for no other reason than my family wants me to happy and the only way they see that is if I go to college. They are the ones how would be paying for it, though I really have to say I hate that they'd be paying for it. It's my education (should I choose it to be) and I have no intention of letting them pay for it, which I'm aware may seem kinda silly but if i go to college, it will be something I did for me. Not something my family pays for while I question if its even worth it. 

Right now I am thinking I will classes I see some value to, like accounting and such. But I don't ever want school to be my focus, travel will always be the goal. 

Oh! And thanks for your input it's all been very helpful

 

[Elizabeth]

If you really want vandwelling to be your lifestyle , consider what you want to do that will support you out on the road and seek training that would get you that kind of work.
Is someone paying for college or do you have to find your own financing?
At 19 there is a very long roadtrip ahead of you.......................................>>>
Is this what you see yourself doing for the rest of your life or will it be temporary until you find another path?
What you decide now will control what you can do as you get older.

I see myself doing this forever, I see no other future and I couldn't be happier about it!

 

[rvpopeye]

I feel the same , fulltime forever !
Hope to see you out on the road.
Post any questions you have about getting set up.

"Live long and prosper"

 

[GotSmart]

I can assure you, none of you have scared me off I've just been trying to listen to what everyone is saying.  This has been an extremely hard decision to make for no other reason than my family wants me to happy and the only way they see that is if I go to college. They are the ones how would be paying for it, though I really have to say I hate that they'd be paying for it. It's my education (should I choose it to be) and I have no intention of letting them pay for it, which I'm aware may seem kinda silly but if i go to college, it will be something I did for me. Not something my family pays for while I question if its even worth it. 

Right now I am thinking I will classes I see some value to, like accounting and such. But I don't ever want school to be my focus, travel will always be the goal. 

Oh! And thanks for your input it's all been very helpful

My daughter had a 4.0 GPA, and a 33 on her ACT.  After 4 years she is $28,000 in student loan debt.  It would be twice that but a lot of scholarships. One semester in England.  She saw Paris, Rome, Stonehenge and Amsterdam on weekend trips with her friends.   It was worth all the money I had put out for her.

If your family wants to give you a education, concentrate on the grades.  Do that for yourself.  Just figure out what you really enjoy doing that is an in demand skill. Enjoy this period in your life.  Young, healthy, and single.

 

[Seraphim]

The world we live in is very different than than the world your parents grew up in. We are now in an era of low-wage jobs and most college graduates end up in those low paying jobs!!! 

Much worse, that college education comes with an enormous debt that the low-wage job you end up with can never pay back. 

I say jump right into vandwelling unless you have s specific job you want to train for. 

Getting a degree for the sake of having a degree is almost certainly a mistake in 2015. Either go to a school that will give you a specific markateble skill that you KNOW you can gt a job in, or forget college.




Here is a chart comparing the educational attainment of Low-Wage workers in 1979 and 2013.  44% of low-wage orkers have some college in 2013

Here's a chart that shows the cost of college which is sky-rocketing, and the average wages of college graduates which are dropping like a rock:

In 2015, college just isn't worth it.
Bob

You can't just make a blanket statement saying its "not worth it."  It depends on what you expect to get out of college, which also depends on the field you want to get into.

College isn't strictly about trying to earn a higher wage. If that's the only reason one is going, then it's worth considering the current situation.  There are fields out there which require college, and which are starving for new talent: engineering and math fields come to mind. Try to become a symphony conductor without advanced education in music.

Each person has to choose their goals and find the best path towards that particular goal.  College may not be the best path for many.  For many, as well, it's certainly 'worth it', whether as a hedge to financial security or not.

So, OP, the real question here is what do you WANT to do?  What's your priority in life. Only you can answer that question. Tell us what you want to achieve, and how quickly, and perhaps we can help you attain that goal.