City Vandwelling Guide Needed

[citytravelfotos]

I find that a lot of vandwelling advice is most suited for people who want to live in the countryside, rural areas, like national parks and on the road and such. What about people like me and others who like to or have to live in cities? Especially large cities. There are a lot of things that a rural vandweller can do that an urban vandweller can't, so a lot of advice doesn't apply well. For instance how about cooking, having solar panels, etc... with the added need of being stealth?

I think someone should make an urban vandwelling guide. There are probably many urban vandwellers out there but they are a minority I guess on this forum. 80% of Americans live in urban areas, and many of them need to or even like to live in them. I've been to two RTRs so far and I've met only a few people with urban vandwelling experience (and perhaps one that's an actual city vandweller.)

Also it's even harder if you have to do it in an older style city like San Francisco, central Los Angeles, or heck even Chicago or New York City. Yes I know many here may wonder why anyone would want to live in them, but there are many people who like to live in the inner city. It would be nice if you didn't have to rent a room to have that experience.

 

[Lifemagician]

Why not start documenting all the details of your experiences, and those of the folk with whom you speak. That will be the makings of a book.

As for me, I try to avoid the urban areas. Lived in them all my life. Time now to see the rest of the world.

Lifey

 

[WheelEstate USA]

As for me, I try to avoid the urban areas. Lived in them all my life. Time now to see the rest of the world.

Lifey

Here too. We are equipped for boondocking and also like smaller towns.

A lot of people on this site dwell in vans in urban areas. Tons of threads here with info from experienced folks. I'd imagine that even many of them would be read a good book about the subject, as well as newbies.

 

[One Awesome Inch]

Regarding stealth and solar panels...

There is a van parked outside my condo right now that I am pretty sure is a 'live in'. What they did is take large-ish diameter pvc 'sewer pipe' and run it on top of a roof rack with solar panel(s) in the middle. You cant actually see the solar panels from the sidewalk. It also helps that its a taller van.

 

[Van-Tramp]

In most major cities, living in your vehicle is against the law and it should not be advised. In some counties/cities they WILL arrest you for doing so. In some counties/cities they have the right to arrest or cite you for simply POSSESSING "camping" items in your vehicle (no matter if they are in use or not).

If you are looking to urban-camp, you must also be willing to: Never answer a knock on your door in the middle of the night (which will anger the police) or you may be arrested/ticketd. Never answer questions from a police officer (which will anger the police) or you may be arrested/ticketed. You have every right to do both, but they will harass you anyway (in complete and total violation of your constitutional and civil rights) and more than likely get away with it too. If you are not willing to stand up for those rights, then you give up those rights and you will find urban-van-dwelling very expensive (constant tickets and bail) and tiresome (lack of sleep due to police harassment).

With all that said: Cities have limits... and that is where those city ordinances stop. You are best to camp outside those limits to stay within the law (state and federal laws are usually less restrictive than city ordinances) and commute into the cities only when needed. Camping outside the city limits will be less risky, less criminal, less harassing, and less expensive other than a few extra dollars spent in gasoline each month.

I cant imagine why anyone would want to urban-camp with all those risks and added costs. It would be cheaper (and easier) to simply rent a room in the city.

 

[One Awesome Inch]

So what happens if you dont answer a knock and they get a tow truck to impound your van.... with you in it?

 

[citytravelfotos]

So vandwelling is ultimately a bad idea if you live and intend to stay in a major city?

So thus, there is no escape from the rat race if your an urbanite.

---

Actually, what's inspired me to do urban vandwelling is because I have a friend that lives in a van in Los Angeles, as well as seeing a video from Tynan who lives in San Francisco in a small class C RV (Rialta) as well as reading about Glenn Morrisette (who started out living in the streets of Los Angeles). Thing is that the latter two have an RV, and I don't, and Tynan has a big solar panel on top that's noticeable (and way too unstealthy for me.) My friend lives in a van but only has a 2nd battery for electricity and doesn't cook, and actually doesn't move around that much.

 

[Van-Tramp]

@Unity Gain - The police to not have the right to tow from private property (dept store parking lots, etc). They may only tow from public streets, which almost always require a 24 hour notification. Basically, they cant call in a truck to tow you that night (unless you are blocking a driveway or something) if ever. Also, they can not tow a vehicle if they suspect anyone is in the van... the tow company will not do it either, too much liability and 100% illegal.

Let them suspect all they want, just do not confirm their suspicion by answering the knock. Literally, there is *nothing* they can do as long as you do not answer the knock. I know, I ignore knocks all the time and not once has anything come of it other than an interrupted dream. The police have better things to do then sit around your van waiting 3 hours for a tow truck to arrive, or questioning you when you answer the door. Let them do their job and get a good night's sleep by simply not answering the knock.

@Citytravelfotos - I'm not sure I would take it that far. Many people do van-dwell in city limits regularly (myself included) for short periods of time without much problem. To stay a night or two can be done without much hassle, but eventually the police will recognize your vehicle. They are not idiots... they will know what is going on... and the knocks will begin. If you fail to cave in and leave, they will start ticketing you. If you fail to leave again, they will start arresting you.

As I have said, if you must live in that city, do so within the laws; renting a room can be had for $300 or less in most areas. Or, if you must continue to live in the van, rent a garage space and van-dwell in comfort and safety.

 

[wagoneer]

Most of the people I know vandwell here in SF have lost their rigs because they can't get their heads out of the jug
booze booze and more booze. One guy passed on. We used to call him "cricket" old bikes and vodka.

 

[offroad]

So what happens if you dont answer a knock and they get a tow truck to impound your van.... with you in it?

You have a story. That you are hard of hearing because of service in the military. And until someone rocks the van you will hear nothing. Just be really nice and cooperative, but smart about it all.

---

Van-Tramp has the right ideas. Agree with his views on this.

Do some research on STEALTH CAMPING as bicycle tourists have to do this all the time (search for blogs about this) . You can get some tips from them. Just hard to hide a van.

Think about police jurisdictions (town line, county line, etc.) when you think of where to park. Driving 15 miles (at $4 gallon) to find a new place to park for the night every night can get costly. You may want to think about working the 3rd night shift (midnight to 8am) and sleeping at the park during the day, with some temporary job for where you will be visiting. Parks will let you visit for eight hours without disturbance if they think you are out hiking.

 

[citytravelfotos]

I think the issue of stealth largely depends on how afraid of the police and other authorities you are.

If your going to have a passive stance, of course you are going to be fearful and not want to do this.

If you have a more assertive stance, your not going to let the police stop you from doing this.

I'm not yet a vandweller, nevertheless I've had 7 encounters with the police within the past 6 years and have never been arrested or ticketed.

 

[caseyc]

Some counties have passed laws that pretty much ban "oversized" vehicles, specifically RVs in particular that are parked in city streets for long stretches at a time. For example, an "oversized" parked vehicle cannot be over 7 feet tall, and cannot be over 22 feet long. Pretty much all RVs (especially Class A and C including school buses, etc) fall into this criteria for size restriction, hence giving the authorities the ability to ticket and tow said offending vehicles. As mentioned in other threads/posts, it's unfortunate that some bad apples spoil it for the rest of us. If these RV owners could simply move their "oversized" vehicles to another parking spot on a regular basis (instead of parked in same spot for many days in a row), this would have probably avoided neighbors from getting peeved about this issue. Neighbors don't like it when an oversized RV is "camped out" in front of their house for days and weeks at a time. My opinion is that it's pretty ballsy for an RV owner to do this and think he/she can get away with it indefinitely.

---

7 times?! Wow! Would you care to elaborate on some of the encounters? I'm sure some of us could find that information useful.

I think the issue of stealth largely depends on how afraid of the police and other authorities you are.

If your going to have a passive stance, of course you are going to be fearful and not want to do this.

If you have a more assertive stance, your not going to let the police stop you from doing this.

I'm not yet a vandweller, nevertheless I've had 7 encounters with the police within the past 6 years and have never been arrested or ticketed.

 

[citytravelfotos]

"@Citytravelfotos - I'm not sure I would take it that far. Many people do van-dwell in city limits regularly (myself included) for short periods of time without much problem. To stay a night or two can be done without much hassle, but eventually the police will recognize your vehicle. They are not idiots... they will know what is going on... and the knocks will begin. If you fail to cave in and leave, they will start ticketing you. If you fail to leave again, they will start arresting you."


That depends on where you live. If you are staying in a big city like Los Angeles, there are better things for the police to do. Then again, I've seen them bully the homeless, usually around downtown though. Venice Beach is full of RV dwellers, including one that lives just outside one of my aunts' apartments.

In newer sunbelt cities, its more likely for there to be many Walmarts around that are friendly for overnight parking. In smaller cities, it's more likely for there to be a Flying J nearby, or in some cases even a rest stop. Thus, in many cases one need only to cycle between Walmarts and maybe some safe areas.

Just right now I'm staying in a very suburban area of a college city, and there's a Winnebago Rialta parked just across the apartment complex (and has been for at least a month or so) and it looks to me like its abandoned or something, it seems that either it's an RV dweller or noone has cared to call the cops on it (or the cops don't really care about it.) In California there's a 72 hour parking law that allows a vehicle to be towed if it has been in one spot for 3 days or more.

 

[Van-Tramp]

Can't argue with any of what citytravelfotos says above.

My first piece of advice for anyone (van dwelling or not) is to leave California. Why anyone wants to live there is beyond me; bad government, nanny state laws, massive crime rates, poor schools, hi cost of living, no jobs... I lived there for 37 years before leaving and I am so much happier (and safer) now that I left.

You are in a van, go drive it out of state and you will see too

 

[citytravelfotos]

7 times?! Wow! Would you care to elaborate on some of the encounters? I'm sure some of us could find that information useful.

In most cases I got away because they ran my license and found that I wasn't a lawbreaker. It seems to me that they would have gone harder on me if I had a record.

The most invasive stop was when I was photographing the city of Atlanta's skyline, I guess because I was photographing a highway interchange in the foreground (photographing infrastructure can make police suspect that you are a terrorist), the police officer threatened me into letting him search my backpack and found my prepared guide that I had for photographing many cities around the country, so thus he believed that I was a photographer and let me go. I felt like complaining to the police department or to media but didn't do so. The police do resort to threats if you don't comply with their requests, and I'm not keen in responding to aggression with aggression. It does take a lot of guts IMO resist police officers.

Two police officers used BS reasons to stop me, including The North Carolina State Highway Patrol that pulled me over insisting that I was driving too close to the car in front of me (I've always been used to keeping a large space between me and the car in front of me.) Another in Dallas, TX said that I was parking in a place that was illegal to park (it was not marked red, and the place he told me to park was marked red!)

I did park in a restricted parking area before (only for a short while), on a what I thought was a secluded area on top of a mountain at night (in Los Angeles), that I didn't even think police came there, and the police came up to me (with searchlights blazing) and I just told them I was looking to photograph a view, I guess the police just ran my license and let me go. It seems that they have a definite bias against anyone with a record.

I didn't even include in that count the time I was in Tucson, talking to somebody on the phone just outside a convenience store, three police officers came up to me and yelled at me to put the phone down, I didn't do so immediately and the police went and searched me, they claimed that a suspect was on the loose (I guess they didn't even know how the suspect looked like) and got angry at me for not putting the phone down immediately.

 

[Van-Tramp]

Sounds like you gave up your constitutional rights. The "demands to search" were nothing more than BS. You did not have to allow it. They used your own fear of angering the "po-po" to get you to give up your rights. Lesson to learn; Dont speak with then at all and never agree to a search no matter what. They may only search you if they are going to arrest you, and even then they are very limited in how and what they may search. Any search prior to an arrest is illegal and unconstitutional... unless they can scare you into giving up that constitutional right, which they will attempt to do every single time.

My story is similar; I was parked in a private parking lot, talking on a cell phone. Police rolled up and I made them wait until my call was completed. At that time I showed her my license (I would not have done this if I were not in the drivers seat of the car) and said nothing more. She was so angered by this, she called in backup who attempted to scare me. They failed. Over the next 15 minutes they even put cuffs on me to get me to talk and agree to a search. That scare tactic failed as well. They had no choice but to take the cuffs off and let me go. They got the "one finger salute" and I drove straight to the department and filed a complaint against each of them, which stays in their record and effects their chances of promotion and pay raises. They will think twice before doing that BS again, but only after people stand up to them. Don't let them scare you. Remember, THEY are your servant, not the other way around.

 

[citytravelfotos]

Can't argue with any of what citytravelfotos says above.

My first piece of advice for anyone (van dwelling or not) is to leave California. Why anyone wants to live there is beyond me; bad government, nanny state laws, massive crime rates, poor schools, hi cost of living, no jobs... I lived there for 37 years before leaving and I am so much happier (and safer) now that I left.

You are in a van, go drive it out of state and you will see too

This is an example of how opinions can contrast quite a lot between two people.

I was born and raised in California. I lived in Tucson, AZ intermittently for two years and continuously for another two. I've gone across the country several times, been all throughout the midwest, south, texas, and the lower west.

There are many nice places but not nice enough for me to want to live in. I like big cities so the only cities as big or bigger than San Francisco and Los Angeles that I've visited are Chicago and New York City, but those cities are only good for being in springtime and fall. Los Angeles especially is a year round city, and has a lot of beautiful views with hills, mountains, and lots of coastline, as well as a lot of palm trees to complement it. Los Angeles looks almost as good as Hawaii in certain areas. You don't get places as beautiful as Los Angeles on a clear day in most of the U.S.

Los Angeles may have had massive crime rates before, but crime in it and even some supposedly very dangerous cities like Compton have dropped off rapidly since the 90's. I've been many times in the night around Hollywood and downtown and have never been a victim of crime. Then again, your chances of being a victim of even an attempted crime has to do with how you look (criminals most likely are looking for easy prey, they don't like to deal with people that will fight back.)

I will say though that in the SF Bay Area, at least Oakland is still pretty dangerous.

I tried leaving California but there isn't anywhere else I'd really like to live in (other than Chicago, but the weather!) And try finding a year round region anywhere else in the country other than Southern California, where in winter the lows are in the 40's (and often with plenty of sunshine) and in summer the highest it gets is in the high 80's (mid 90's in the valleys), and thats dry heat mostly, and in fact most often marine layer comes in in the evening and morning and drops the temperatures in summer.

I've found it in so many things: you get what you pay for, including location (thats why California in general is more expensive.) Sure, Texas has more jobs, it's also very humid in the summer and it's landscapes (and cities) can't compare to California's.

BTW, California's "bad" government has been able to turn up a $4.7 billion dollar budget surplus this past year. You think governments in other states are much better?

---

My story is similar; I was parked in a private parking lot, talking on a cell phone. Police rolled up and I made them wait until my call was completed. At that time I showed her my license (I would not have done this if I were not in the drivers seat of the car) and said nothing more. She was so angered by this, she called in backup who attempted to scare me. They failed. Over the next 15 minutes they even put cuffs on me to get me to talk and agree to a search. That scare tactic failed as well. They had no choice but to take the cuffs off and let me go. They got the "one finger salute" and I drove straight to the department and filed a complaint against each of them, which stays in their record and effects their chances of promotion and pay raises. They will think twice before doing that BS again, but only after people stand up to them. Don't let them scare you. Remember, THEY are your servant, not the other way around.

I will say something though, that in cities (New York City for one) its likely for there to be corrupt police officers that could even frame you (or just lie about you) in order to get you arrested. Examples:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/13/ex-nypd-cop-we-planted-ev_n_1009754.html

http://gawker.com/officer-of-the-year-caught-on-camera-attacking-man-wh-1006842061

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fficer-caught-bragging-framing-black-man.html

 

[owl]

city, you really aren't fooled by Cali state cooking the books are you ? Unfunded pension and medical liability. Total debt $27 billion, $10 billion owed to the federal government. With that kind of debt how can you possibly have a $4.7 billion surplus ? California is on the edge of a fiscal cliff they will not be able to pull back from. Schools that don't educate, ranked 48th in the nation. That's something to be proud of, thank the teachers unions and the politicians for that. And that's with some of the highest spending per pupil in the country. Roads and other infrastucture vergeing on collapse. Business leaving at an unprecedented rate. Real unemployment rate 27%. Highest income tax rates in the nation. The new budget calls for spending increases of 26%. Yes this state is well run and healthy. Keep dreaming !

 

[Van-Tramp]

@ City

I moved to Colorado where we average 300+ days of sunshine every year. From April to October you will not find better weather for sunbathing and BBQing. Yes we got some snow but even in most of the the winter you can go outside and have a great time hiking, biking, skiing, etc in comfortable clothing. The snow mostly stays up in the mountains with the occasional weekend of snow here and there down on the front-range.

The gov in CO is in much better shape (heck, we just recalled 3 senators for not listening too us), the schools are far superior (my son is now in 10th grade so it matters), the lifestyle is much healthier (see the stats for state-obesity CO ranks one of the best), no CO towns have filed for bankruptcy (CA lead the way on that one... I know, I lived there at the time; Vallejo, CA... still bankrupt today and still no police force to speak of, in a city with rampant crime)... I could go on and on, but you get the point.

Few CO cities have ordinances making camping in your vehicle illegal. Not that it matters, drive 5 miles in any direction and you are out of the city and in national forest lands and can camp all you want. AZ, NM, TX all have everything Southern CA has minus the sea breeze (Texas has a coastline too ya know, and a better one if you ask me). I'm no fan of Eastern TX though, too much like CA but more religious (a scary combo).

CA just released 10,000 (!!!) inmates state wide because the state can not afford to house them. What ever "surplus" you were told about, does not exist. If it did, don't you think they should spend some of that money to get felons back in jail, teachers back in school, and police back to work? That is not happening. Everyone knows CA is a sinking ship... everyone.

If you can not find a place equal too or better than SoCal to live, you just haven't bothered to look. My favorite summer location is Western Montana. My favorite Winter? CO actually, it is amazing. California is a place I have to go to visit my family (I am here as I type this in fact) and do so for the shortest time possible each year. If I could, I would never set foot (or tire) in California simply for the draconian and idiotic gun-laws they think makes them safer.

I digress...

 

[citytravelfotos]

I don't have anything against Colorado, or Denver for the matter, but it's an isolated city (just like most other interior west cities) and it's not big enough to stay interesting as its own city IMO. Denver is about 600 miles from Kansas City, 444 miles from Albuquerque, and 753 miles from Las Vegas.

In terms of temperatures, the lows in winter in Denver average 16 - 18 degrees, NOT vandweller or anyone else friendly:

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USCO0105

Compare that to Los Angeles:

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/90089

Los Angeles LOWS are on average about 48 in winter, while Denver's HIGHs are on average 47 in the same time period (December - January.)

Funny, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration has recorded an average of 57.5 inches of snowfall a year for Denver: http://www.crh.noaa.gov/bou/?n=snowstat

---

If you can not find a place equal too or better than SoCal to live, you just haven't bothered to look.

Looks like you are getting angry...

Cities east of California, I have been to: Las Vegas, Phoenix, Tucson (and lived there), Albuquerque, El Paso, Dallas, Fort Worth, Austin, San Antonio, Houston, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Wichita, Omaha, Des Moines, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, South Bend, Columbus, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Dayton, Toledo, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Washington DC, New York City, Charleston West Virginia, Lexington, Louisville, Raleigh, Winston-Salem, Greensboro, Greenville, Atlanta, Jacksonville, Birmingham, Nashville, Knoxville, Memphis, Little Rock, and New Orleans.

Don't tell me that I haven't bothered to look.