Check out my new future home.

fredcdobbs · Jul 28, 2013

I woke up this morning thinking a little more seriously about putting on a paint job on this rig before putting on the solar panels. The one quote I got was for $2700 for a one tone job. I'm kind of leaning toward flexible solar panels, the kind you stick on, so if I paint it a darker color, like dark blue, it will make the panels almost unnoticeable, though the trade off is a higher heat absorbing van. Naturally, I have to make the decision before the panels are put on. It's a terrific running van and the inside is impressively preserved. No outside dents anywhere. It has 77k miles but it is a 1988. What do you all think? I'm spending no more than a couple of days to scout around for a lower cost on the paint job. I'll do it if I can find a place that will do it for $1500, but no more $2000 tops. You think it's worth it?

cygvan · Jul 28, 2013

i think you get what you pay for with paint jobs. i have a friend with a body shop and he would say the same thing essentially. great van find.  if i were in your shoes, i would keep the top white. i lighter metallic blue for the rest would still look great and might help with temps. but white for the top for sure. also, those flexible glue down solar panels are neat but their output is very low. for example, a unisolar 144 watt model is 213" inches long by about 15" wide. so even if you were able to cover the odd shape of that top, you wouldnt wind up with much wattage. perhaps you dont need alot of watts for your system but i thought it was worth mentioning. as for a conventional panel, see if you can get a pair of 140's up there. going to be real tight either way. perhaps by removing the roof rack which is probably useless.

fredcdobbs · Jul 28, 2013

Cygvan, thanks for the feedback. I was thinking white also, but for the entire fan. Wouldn't doing top white for coolness sake be unnecessary because the solar panels will go right over it? I want as much wattage as I can get. I also was thinking about removing the roof rack to make more space, as I can't see a need for it. My niece's son-in-law works in a paint shop and does jobs on the side, preps at his home then does the painting at the shop he works at, said he can do either a two tone or mono for $1500. He said it will take him about a week. Time is a factor because I want to have it painted and solar paneled by the end of August, which is the date I have to be out of my apartment, though I can stay at the YMCA until it's move-in-ready. As far as the flexible panels, I have heard some conflicting reviews of them, and I do get the sense they are lower in output, but they sure ad to the stealth. I know it looks very camper-like now, but I don't want to ad to the lived-in look. Do you think I would be losing enough from the flexibles that I should just go with the conventionals given the amount of space I have. And btw, for anyone out there, I don't seem to have any holes on the roof other than the old tv antenna shown, which I will remove, and the screws holding down the rack. Could the panels wiring use these existing holes or will it be necessary to make more holes, or what?

cygvan · Jul 28, 2013

the solar panels (conventional) will provide shade but you wont be covering the entire roof with them really so youll have some diminished benefit. spraying the entire thing white would be great of course and if it saves money by doing a single color then go for it. i dont know if it would add prep to go with white over dark blue like that but im sure your contact would walk you through the nits and bits of it. as for panel output...it really depends on what you expect from the system. its important to know your power needs, especially from an amp hour view (in my opinion) because that helps size the battery or battery bank. form there, what you expect to realistically put back into the battery/bank from the panels. when i do my solar, i wont install anything less than 250 watt panel. i currently have a 200ah battery and will add a second.  my amp hour draw in 24 hours is around 70-80 right now. with a 250 watt panel and an mppt charge controller, i might expect to put 50 amps back into it in a single 5 - 6 hour sunny day in nj??? just rounding numbers of course. with best conditions. i have access to a/c power for now so im holding off on solar but when im off grid in new mexico (april 2014) i will have a second battery and my solar system and i fully expect to need a generator to top off the battery/bank. putting a big kyocera 315 watt panel up there would improve things. my 12v loads right now are just a truckfridge 130, a fantastic fan and a fantastic fan endless breeze. i havent used my tripplite 1250 inverter yet at all.  my a/c draw would be from my computer which is pretty efficient for the amount of power it has. it draws 1- 1.5 amps a/c which translates into 10 to 15 amps d/c ignoring inverter inefficiencies. i have an LG portable air conditioner and that will pretty much only run with a generator going once im off grid. there are lots of variables and plenty of info on this site and others. i understand that bob has a great write up but i havent read it yet. arizona wind and sun is not only a great place to buy, their csrs and techs are really helpful with any project and theyr websit and forums has loads of easy to understand info. the bottom line is know your needs, know the conditions where you are, know the capabilities of what you can install. sorry for long post. i type really fast as i think and often forget i write so much.

fredcdobbs · Jul 28, 2013

Your power needs are somewhat along the lines that mine will be with the exception an additional DC icebox to supplement my 3 way fridge that came with the van. I do a lot of juicing and blending so I need the additional refrigeration. My juicer has  a powerful hydraulic press and draws about 850 watts and I use it about every 3rd day for about 1 hour, the Vitamix blender draws 1350 watts but I only use that maybe 3 mins a day. I'm going to look into that company and the Kyocera 315 watt panel you mentioned. My concern is I don't know anything about this stuff, but I would love to install it myself and learn from it rather than let others do everything, but I'm afraid of messing things up because I have very limited construction skills. Do these companies guide you through the installation or do they install for you? Do you think it's best to let pros do the install or can a guy like me do it?

cygvan · Jul 28, 2013

well the kyocera 315 will not fit up there...im pretty sure...its a huge panel.. i think you are going to be restricted to a smaller single panel...or two of the 140 size panels.. i dont know if arizona wind sun does installs...but ive asked them a lot of questions before and after making a purchase which so far was just my iota charger. they were pretty eager to give technical info and advice but your mileage may vary... i think your best bet is their forums...then narrowing some questions down to some detailed ones. once you measure the largest surface area you have up top youll have a clearer picture of what will fit...it looks like the front half will be relegated to the vent unless you devise a way for a panel to reside over it, like a roof of sorts..and for that i can picture a custom rack...but now your talking time and money... it is very possible that you wind up being able to only put a few small square panels up there that are like 50 -70 watts each... look here....  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.solar-electric.com/solarpanels.html" target="_blank">http://www.solar-electric.com/solarpanels.html </a>there are two links there...1-100 watt panels and 100 watt + panels... check out some of them and their sizes..especially the kyocera 315...its huge lol

cygvan · Jul 28, 2013

ps...ive been interested in juicing myself...been looking into it...some of the better modesl are pricey... im dreaming that there might be a 12v decent one??? i doubt it.

fredcdobbs · Jul 28, 2013

I'm a very serious juicer and blenderer. In fact, this, along with the rest of my diet is the most important thing I do, so when I was scouting out the vehicles, all this was a strong consideration. Essentially, all I want in my rig is a place to sleep and a place to implement my dietary needs. I have a big concern about security of my juicer and blender which together cost more than the van. These and my laptop are the only possessions I care about. So I have to figure out a way to secure them inside the van, either by chaining them down or buying or have a metal security box made. The clean-up of the machines, especially the hydraulic press, necessitates a good water supply, which it has but I may upgrade it with a good pump and a hot water heater or something. I don't mind spending all my disposable income on it for now because I'm saving such a huge amount on rent. Even if I spend thousands on this van, in less than a year I will be in the black as far as expenses are concerned. I would love to hear from other serious juicers and how they deal with the issues involved with it and the mobile lifestyle.

fredcdobbs · Jul 28, 2013

And btw, I did check out Arizona panels and they are cheaper than I thought they'd be. Have any idea how much it would cost me to install about 240 watts or so, including all the other stuff, like batteries, meters, a 2000watt inverter. I was thinking along the lines of $2000.

Ballenxj · Jul 28, 2013

Hi Fred, I would bet cheaper. Also I was reading one of your earlier posts were you mentioned possibly removing the luggage rack? If I were you, I would leave them there to help mask/hide your solar panels from the side. That would be the perfect place to put a couple 100 watt or bigger panels. Just my humble opinion. <img src="/images/boards/smilies/wink.gif" class="emoticon bbc_img"> -Bruce

fredcdobbs · Jul 29, 2013

Bruce, I'm going to measure the roof areas tomorrow morning. I was thinking the same thing about 2 panels in that of the roof racks. I'll leave the racks there if the two panels fit and maybe a couple of smaller ones, one on either side of the vent, or a single one running sideways behind the vent. I'm hoping to use the hole from the old Delta antenna to run the wiring through. I don't plan on putting up another TV antenna to replace it. I know what you mean about the stealth issue, the more panels you put up, but keeping the rack would tend to conceal or detract from them. Thanks for the feedback everyone, this has been very helpful and encouraging.

cygvan · Jul 29, 2013

their prices are great but dont forget shipping...its a significant cost if you are unable to buy locally. i will be in new mexico in september checking some property and ive accounted for a leg to one of their locations to pick up. as for what the total system will cost...its hard to say really... go through their site and add everything to a cart to get a ballpark...be mindful of the shipping calculator if you have a panel in there...since most of them need to go freight...the calc is off and requires a call to them....but they are cool to talk to. each component of a system has a few options so its hard to ballpark unless you plot it out. a simple list would be: battery or batteries (type will determine cost and housing method) interconnect cables if more than 1 battery fuses distribution block (can be fused, a simple terminal block or others) disconnect switch (for battery and solar side) charger (AC) charger (solar controller MPPT or PWM) panels and mounting method cables from panels to controller inverter cables from battery to inverter transfer switch...can be optional generator there are better lists and advice here and on az wind sun forums... heres what i did...its works for me but its one of a number of possibilities. i selected AGM batteries...pro (no venting, durable, good charge profile and stats, perfect for vehicles, very low discharge rate when stored, perform well in cold, can be used in living spaces and can be shipped as they are sealed) cons (expensive). i have only one so far. Deka Solar 4D 200AH...purchased locally for $380. i will add a second. i chose separate charging devices rather than an all in one solution. i have an IOTA DLS-45-IQ4. it plugs into an AC source (shore power, house 15 amp outlet or generator) draws a max of 11 amps AC and provides 45 amps DC charging power or DC usage (like a power supply, converter). it is wired to my fused 12v distribution block. $140. i chose a blue sea 5026. it has 12 positions each with its own fuse port. it uses automotive fuses in whatever capacity you need for that particular line. it has a 100 amp capacity i think. it is fused at the battery + with a 100 amp terminal fuse. $50?? maybe $25. i cant remember. west marine has them but they have high prices. i have a tripplite 1250 watt mod sine inverter. i never used it. ill be ebaying it in favor of a pure sine inverter at some point. probably a 2000 watt samlex from az wind sun. was $150 on sale on newegg.com. i use a good quality surge protector. $20 my AC inlet is a Marinco stainless steel 30 amp twist lock. this runs to a breaker box and eventually to 3 outlets. west marine matched an online price at defender marine...i paid $75...it was important to get a good quality inlet as my supply cable is connected and disconnected several times a day. i made my own dogbone adapter for about $30. for all AC wiring, i used 12/3 SJOOW and inserted it into 1/2 grey liquid tite pvc conduit. the SJOOW was about $40 and 25' of the liquid tite is $10 at depot.  the fittings and boxes and outlets added another maybe $30? 12g wiring for 12v side of things was $30. add another $25 for some 12v outlets and switches. breaker box was $17 and breaker was $8. i havent bought my solar system yet but i estimate it to be around $900.  $300 for the panel and $600 for charge controller (i am going with a midnite solar classic 250 because i will eventually migrate it to a trailer and eventually a remote cabin...ill need the capacity it provides for more solar panels). i havent installed any disconnect switches yet but i do have one. marine type. $25 i dont own a generator yet but i am leaning towards a honda 2000 or 3000 with the propane kit. im still researching generators. i absolutely want dual fuel. i considered diesel...but they are expensive..i even researched building my own by trying to find small diesel engines on ebay...i think ill stick with gasoline/propane. having said that... figure $1000 to $2500 depending on size and propane kit i know this is the CHEAPRVLIVING forum and many of these things are expensive but the fun thing is to find the right balance between cost/quality and how it makes living this lifestyle better. i was fortunate to be gainfully employed while i did alot of this work. i lost my job in aug 2012 (BASTAGES) but because ive been vandwelling since sept/oct 2011 and got a severance and unemployment im getting by.  im very fortunate to have my best friend as a host...not a day goes by that i dont trip overmyself doing him, his wife and their kids some random act of kindness. hope this helps

fredcdobbs · Jul 29, 2013

cyg, it does help quite a bit, but the parts list and what to do with them and the connections and everything sounds very intimidating. If I have it installed I hope the installer will give me all the options available and the things I need and don't need. I don't have a lot of money but I do have a decent retirement check coming in every month and I hope I won't need to tap into my very modest social security until I'm 70. And like you said, making this lifestyle better is where it's at for me, so I don't mind pouring in whatever I can into this. The exciting part is that soon I will be free from rent, which I felt was just like throwing money down the drain.

Ballenxj · Jul 29, 2013

Hi cygvan, That is a very comprehensive list. Sounds like you have researched it well. <img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" class="emoticon bbc_img">  Have you come up with an approximate total cost for this system? Your choice of generators matches mine. Preferably an EU3000, but the EU2000 is more affordable and will probably work for emergencies. I have read about folks that don't even need a gas powered generator as their solar system gets them by just fine. I have thought about that as an option. -Bruce

fredcdobbs · Jul 29, 2013

I'd like a total cost estimate as well.

cygvan · Jul 29, 2013

well im not sure about installers or what they would charge...as i tend to go the DIY route...ive got a few people i can reach out too when i am not sure about something and theres always google...it does take some work to sift through suggestions and personal opinons and weight them against standards and quality and the "right" way... i empathize with you having a limited time frame to get the work done...it was my situation too...my only saving grace was that i daydreamed about everything for over a year before i even got my van lol... i would say i spent about $1200 so far...(im changing my inverter so sell current one and obtain new one add $400) i dont have solar yet so add about $1000 i plan to add a sencond battery so add another $380 i dont have a generator get, so add about $2000 max (thats what ive capped myself at so when it comes time to buy i gotta look for a deal) it can be done cheaper for sure...and you could spend more i dont know what you would need to add to pay for someone to do all or a portion of the work... if you are willing to deal with wet type deep cycle batteries and would like a similar capacity to mine (after i add a second) you would be at 400AH... crown batteries are what i would chose and for that amount of AH you are looking at two 6 volt 390 AH wired to get 12v at 390 AH. $546 before shipping so i would research online but try to buy locally (this battery is called an L16HC). it would be about $214 cheaper than my AGM set up. there are other combinations of batteries to get to around this AH capacity. like two 12v 215 AH from crown. wire them to retain 12v and double AH. that would be around $622. next i would recommend a good charger. you can combine inverter, charger and even transfer switch but they tend to be expensive and sometimes they dont excel at all functions...so i went with separate componentry.  IOTA 45 DLS IQ4. is my recommendation. its the model with the smart charger option so you can properly charge any battery. its about $140.  there are higher capacity models but the reason i like this one is, at its max AC draw of 11 amps i can run it from any household outlet and still have some overhead without tripping the AC source (of course it helps to know if there are any other loads on that particular circuit to begin with). next is your solar. really varies here...the size of the roof available dictates the size of the panel/s you can install which dictates your charging capacity and which charge controller you need. if you can install a 230-270 watt panel and it FITS...youll need an MPPT charge controller (because those panels are not 12v they are actually 24v or 36v or 48v even) you cant put that into a 12v battery bank without controlling it...an MPPT controller, in short, not only brings it down to the proper charge voltage at the different charging stages but has the adde benefit of taking to voltage overhead and turning it into charge amps...so if a 250 watt pane is rated at 8 amps...the MPPT controller will bring that up to (GUESS) 15 or 18?? the stats vary. once you know these capacities then you can select a controller and youll have a price...lets say $250 remember, youll only get those charing amps for a few hours a day...so you need to remember that while solar is awesome...having limited surface area to capture the sun begs the question, is the expense and complexity worth the 18x4 = 72 amps i can put back into my battery, under ideal conditions, not counting my bad math, or component inefficiencies... your juicers will really push a 400 AH system by the way...you will almost always be charging. now you have your generator expense....to me, this is a good spot to spend good money....and i think you are on right track with honda...the 2000 can be had for $1000.  add $200-300 for propane kit if you are so inclined... connect your IOTA charger to this and you could theoreticall put 45 amps back into your batter in one hour...so...see what i mean about the solar expense? if you were converting a cargo trailer, like a 6x12 or 7x16...then solar is really coming to a sweet spot in my opinion due to the roof surface area. now...if you are a total guru at conservation, and dont use those juicers...solar might be a worthwhile part of your charging plan. now you have an inverter...if you plan on using those juicers you are going to need an inverter rated at least for the peak draw of those devices. or at least one that can handle a temp upsurge... id like to say a 2000 watt pure sine (which i believe pure sine is an absolute must in your case) from like samlex $600 - $800 is in order. that may not be high enough. hard to tell unless you check out the juicer specs and your other draws. dont worry about the cost of cables as the runs for a van are short anyway...just be sure that you or your installer gets the right size, and stranded (not solid) and always check the manufacturer recommendations for wire size on each device (charger, mppt, battery, inverter etc). fusing is important as well as a proper distribution block...not expensive so figure it to be an ancillary cost...wiring and fuses, and blocks and outlets and all that stuff shouldt cost you more than $150 and thats generous. dont take this as etched in stone but i would set aside about $2500 to $3000 for all of your electrical needs with three charge sources.  add maybe $1000 for an installer??? 10 hours at $100 shop rate?? solar AC charger generator

cygvan · Jul 29, 2013

i forgot to add that just about everyone and their cousin recommends that you only draw your batteries down to 50% discharge or DOD. so your 400AH is really 200AH. discharging to a reat lower than 50% is said to shorted the life of batteries... im a skeptic here and i dont think it applies to all batteries or battery types. (something about battery manufacturers wanting to sell more batteries?) i have read that some solar specific AGM batteries dont mind going down to 20% DOD (Lifecycle brand?) but thems are gourmet chickens... my opinion is that if you have a good quality battery and charge it properly and (in the case of wet cells) change the water and monitor specific gravity....then you can safely discharge them lower than 50% DOD.  liek shaving a year off a 5 - 8 year life span will matter much?

Patrick46 · Jul 29, 2013

Whadda great score!!! I wouldn't be too worried about the solar panels ruining your 'stealthiness', as if I saw this van I'd just think that it was owned by a couple of energy concious seniors out touring.Also, $1500 to repaint a huge full size van is a STEAL!!!! I'd pay that in a heartbeat, and overlook any orangepeel or imperfections!! (It's easily worth 2x that price!!)

fredcdobbs · Jul 29, 2013

I just measured the roof spaces and it looks like I have a 69"x38" (maybe 39") space in-between the rack, 41"width with the rack removed. The front part of the roof where the vent is I have a 50"x10" area on either side of the vent and/or a 17"x45" area running perpendicular directly behind the vent. And that is pretty much it. Kyocera's 315 watt panel is listed as 65.43"x59.97", so that one is out. But their 245 Watt panel is 65.43"x39.98", so I may be able to squeeze it in-between the rack, or for sure on top of and secured to the rack, I don't know how that would look though. For added wattage, I can slip in panels that can accommodate the 17" width area or the two 10"width I described above (but I don't know whether they even make them like that). I neglected to mention my pronounced fear of heights, for what among other things I am in therapy for, so just standing on the upper rungs of the ladder to measure was a huge challenge for me, so it looks like I will have to have someone install the setup for me. I called Northern Arizona Wind and Sun but they do not install and don't know anyone to refer to in Los Angeles. He said any RV shop should be able to do it. They would have to ship the panel by freight and the cost would be about $200 plus about $25 for the rest of the gear by regular shipping. His guesstimate for installation of the entire thing was about 2-3 hundred, which sounded pretty low to me, but I hope he's right. He said it would take about 4-5 hours, which to me sounds more like a 4-5 hundred dollar job, which is still more than ok with me. This question may sound totally naÃƒÂ¯ve, but do they have to make holes in the roof to mount the panels? For running the wiring into the van I'm sure they can use the existing hole for the antenna, which I am removing. But I assume they have to make screw holes for the panel mounting brackets.

fredcdobbs · Jul 29, 2013

And Patrick, thanks for the comment regarding the paint. It encouraged me. I'm leaning toward all white for the issues of heat and general stealth, but if those were not issues, I would prefer darker colors, especially dark blue, which is my favorite color. I have about a week to decide, that's when my appointment with the painter is. In addition to my fear of heights, I am afflicted with extreme indecisiveness. So I value all the feedback from this forum in helping to know which way to go.