Catalytic Heaters

[user 22017]

Coleman fuel (a.k.a. white gas, generic name: petroleum naphtha) is a petroleum derivative (as is propane). World Health Organization lists propane as a safe indoor cooking fuel and afaik doesn't list naphtha.
Naphtha does burn hotter than propane.

Safety of Coleman heater:
Other than standard stuff (area around it clear of combustibles, don't touch when hot), the only thing I can add is do not let it run out of fuel. Roaring headache and bad taste in mouth results (don't ask how I know ).

Thanks Spiff

 

[Zerpersande]

I used these when I was younger. Older now and more careful about what I breathe. Only use propane fired appliances in my camper now.

White gas has a number of unhealthy combustion byproducts.
Unleaded gas has additives and its combustion yields almost the same byproducts as auto exhaust.

And what are these by products exactly? Not joking here, do you know what they are or are you just repeating a claim made by soneone that doesn’t understand that the combustion processes are totally different?

The study that I’d like to see? Does the current obsession with wearing rubber/nitrile glove ‘do anything’ to avoid health issues? In fact, do any of the obsessions with avoiding unhealthy things do anything to avoid health issues and prolong life?

What are the byproducts what are their concentrations and what are the EPA standards for exposure? If you are concerned with breathing these byproducts then stay out of cities. Or any area where cars and trucks come and go. My guess? It sounds like most people on here understand the need for some ventilation. How important is that? As best I remember I always had the tent zipped up and yet I’m alive. Go figure.

 

[Happy Camper]

A tent breathes. Your insulated van probably not as well. Glad you're alive.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11769918/

 

[Zerpersande]

A tent breathes. Your insulated van probably not as well. Glad you're alive.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11769918/

Yeah, but I doubt the tent was ‘breathing‘ as much air as was coming in the slightly unzipped window/door, huh?

 

[Happy Camper]

Your lungs, and your life. I'm good with whatever you do.

You asked for a study and I gave you one. I hope that helps. You're obviously smarter than I am. So you do you.

 

[Zerpersande]

Your lungs, and your life. I'm good with whatever you do.

You asked for a study and I gave you one. I hope that helps. You're obviously smarter than I am. So you do you.

I agree with you fully on the above. Take care.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

And what are these by products exactly? Not joking here, do you know what they are or are you just repeating a claim made by soneone that doesn’t understand that the combustion processes are totally different? .....

I did the research a number of years ago; the papers on the stoichiometry of burning unleaded gas in normal atmosphere are available. Since I am not interested in using unleaded gas as an indoor fire source I'm not interested in redoing the research; it is time consuming.

A good place to start is with the Safety Data Sheet for unleaded gas.

 

[wayne49]

Gasoline is highly volatile. Diesel is not.

Put some diesel in a tuna can and toss a lit wooden match into the can, the match will go out. I did that almost 50 years ago to see what would happen. I was disappointed.

Diesel will burn if a rag is soaked in it, makes a good torch, add rope and pitchforks.

Propane is similar to diesel.

 

[Zerpersande]

Put some diesel in a tuna can and toss a lit wooden match into the can, the match will go out.

As will a lit cigarette in gasoline.

Propane is similar to diesel.

Propane and diesel are both hydrocarbons and therefore burn like hydrocarbons. The similarity ends there. Propane is a gas at room temperature and pressure so have a bit of propane in an open container won’t normally work. You can fill a container with propane, say a room. Try striking a match, no luck at all. Add a bit of air(oxygen ) samedeal. A bit more, a bit more and at a certain percentage of air (I forget the exact percentage) the room will cease to exist.

Propane, being an extremely low molecular weight HC also burns cleanly. Many city taxis here in Japan run on propane.

 

[Zerpersande]

I did the research a number of years ago; the papers on the stoichiometry of burning unleaded gas in normal atmosphere are available. Since I am not interested in using unleaded gas as an indoor fire source I'm not interested in redoing the research; it is time consuming.

A good place to start is with the Safety Data Sheet for unleaded gas.

It’s not all that time consuming. I’ll agree that there are more by products from unleaded. What I won’t agree with is that the hazard is anything to be concerned about in a less than airtight situation.

 

[Zerpersande]

I did the research a number of years ago; the papers on the stoichiometry of burning unleaded gas in normal atmosphere are available.

It just occurred to me that whatever research you did was almost certainly based on the manner in which gasoline is normally used…in an internal combustion engine. And the conditions inside an engine makes this is absolutely qualitatively different in terms of pressure, reaction rate, temp of reactants at time of combustion from the reaction that occurs in the Coleman heater. And if the reactions are qualitatively different then given my degree in chemistry I would feel comfortable betting money that the products are different, again both qualitatively and quantitatively. An engine rapidly compresses the air/gasoline mixture, with the gasoline being in a mist form, thus rapidly raising the temperature. The catalytic heater doesn’t do this. Some reactions which involve the additives may not even occur under the conditions of the catalytic heater. In fact, those additives are included BECAUSE of the conditions inside the engine, some to prevent knocking.

So regardless of whatever you found in your study, you may have been studying apples and oranges.

 

[Happy Camper]

I wish there was a sarcasm emoji.

 

[Zerpersande]

I did the research a number of years ago; the papers on the stoichiometry of burning unleaded gas in normal atmosphere are available.

Did you take into consideration that “Catalytic heaters are safe to use in tents because they don’t have an open flame and produce NO carbon monoxide. They burn propane with the help of a catalyst without any open flame hence no risk of CO poisoning.”

Now, this is for propane, but catalytic combustion of White gas/gasoline likely gives similar results. (Still looking, the dog has a bone now) As for the additives, the additives are what clog up generators in the lanterns and stoves, meaning that they don’t get burned, or at least a significant quantity doesn’t.

internal combustion engines and catalytic heaters are apples and oranges.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

It just occurred to me that whatever research you did was almost certainly based on the manner in which gasoline is normally used…in an internal combustion engine .....

Your reading comprehension is a little off today or I was not clear:

stoichiometry of burning unleaded gas in normal atmosphere are available​

'one atmosphere' might have been clearer.

There are lots of studies on the stoichiometry in a high pressure environment (inside a internal combustion engine) but little on an open gas fire. Which is why it was difficult to find.
IIRC the study was done by the EPA on pollution from an open gasoline fire (gas spill, etc.)

 

[Zerpersande]

I did the research a number of years ago;

More bone gnawing…

The catalytic heaters produce little to no CO, and internal combustion engines do. Also catalytic reactions are very reactant specific. Just bc a catalyst will catalyze the oxidation of gasoline does not mean that the additives will combust. In fact, I’d bet money against it. Not just bc catalysts are very specific but bc the reason Coleman advises against unleaded gas is that it results in clogged up generators and would almost certainly contribute to clogging up the asbestos screen containing the catalyst, NOT because of the danger of their combustion and the resulting production of the nasties you Re overly concerned about.

 

[Zerpersande]

Is bone gnawing also prohibited on the forum?

 

[Zerpersande]

Your reading comprehension is a little off today

Agreed. My bad.
But it is still apples and oranges. The catalytic heater that I used operated nothing like an open pit fire using gasoline. ;-) A catalytic reaction is still qualitatively, and thus qualitatively, different from those of the study you reference. So much so as to be almost totally, if not totally, irrelevant. Thermodynamically it’s the difference between an isothermal and an adiabatic process.

 

[GoingMobile]

I used to have a Svea backpacking stove that ran on white gas. Very lightweight. It had a small reservoir around where the burner emerged from the tank You would fill that with white gas, light it on fire and give it a moment before turning the burner on, much like the method used to light the Coleman catalytic heater shown. Always used it outside. It has been suggested that the propane catalytic heaters such as the Wave 3 produce much less carbon monoxide than heaters with an open flame such as a Little Buddy heater, and that the main danger involved in using the catalytic heater in an indoor space would be to deprive the space of oxygen.

 

[Zerpersande]

I used to have a Svea backpacking stove that ran on white gas. Very lightweight. It had a small reservoir around where the burner emerged from the tank You would fill that with white gas, light it on fire and give it a moment before turning the burner on, much like the method used to light the Coleman catalytic heater shown. Always used it outside. It has been suggested that the propane catalytic heaters such as the Wave 3 produce much less carbon monoxide than heaters with an open flame such as a Little Buddy heater, and that the main danger involved in using the catalytic heater in an indoor space would be to deprive the space of oxygen.

Pretty much spot on in all aspects. But the older Coleman catalytic heater started different. You turned them upside down until a wet spot appeared on the asbestos sheet inside the wire mesh. Turned it back over and started it up. I don’t recall but maybe start up was best done outside. That may have been my choice???

 

[user 22017]

"... the reason Coleman advises against unleaded gas is that it results in clogged up generators and would almost certainly contribute to clogging up the asbestos screen containing the catalyst,..."

Didn't know they were built with asbestos. Is that the part that some people refer to as the wick? The globe that the snuffer covers?