CAN an older rig actually be reliable?

[SoulRaven]

I've now lived in two different older vehicles that more than one mechanic praised their reliability--both broke down several times per month and ended up dead in my parents' driveway. The first one due to both alternator going out and a complex braking issue, the second due to a carburetor problem and then the starter going out for the third time in a year due to what turned out to be a warped flywheel.

I'm super skittish about going with an older vehicle again. Both of my previous experiences should have worked out. The first one was owned by a mechanic by trade, who teaches other mechanics overseas (which is why I could borrow it while he was gone--also why I couldn't get the work done on it.) The second was seen by various mechanics as things kept breaking down, and each mechanic basically said "she's all fixed up and good to go from here on out, you've got yourself a really reliable vehicle!" ....and then within the month I'd be stranded on the side of the road calling AAA again.

My dad strongly advises I avoid anything older than year 2000, purely for mechanical reliability.

What's your opinion?

From what I gather here, several seem to say that older vehicles are reliable, but then assume you can do most of the work on them yourself. I can't. What sort of mechanical reliability can I realistically expect as best case scenario from an older vehicle? And what are my chances of finding that?

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I'm not a fan of older vehicles.

I used to do all my own work when I was much younger, right up to swapping engines.  Now I'm in my sixties and developing arthritis and I don't even change my own oil anymore.

I hate to think about how many separate, individual, parts and pieces there are on a car or truck.  Tens of thousands? All of them subject to inevitable mechanical wear as you put the miles on a vehicle.  Add to that the items made of rubber that deteriorate with time even just standing still, the brake and fuel lines underneath that slowly rust over time, the miles and miles of electrical wiring . . .

Eventually, any vehicle reaches the point where it's going to be one repair after another.  Unless you're talking about a classic, highly valuable collectors car, that's been taken apart and restored from the ground up, and believe me, you don't want to know how much something like THAT costs.

I personally think the sweet spot is a vehicle about five to seven years old, with only about 50,000 miles on it.  Still close enough to new, but somebody else ate the worst of the depreciation.  That should be good for another hundred thousand RELATIVELY trouble free miles.

Such a vehicle is not cheap.  If you don't have the money for something like that, then the only other answer is to keep a repair fund and be prepared to use it.

BTW, before I bought my current 2012 Ford with 40 thousand miles on it, I used to buy used state and county vehicles at auction.  They were well maintained.  Never spent more than $3,000 on one, they usually had around 80 to 90 thousand miles on them.  I could always get 3 to 4 trouble free years out of them while running them up to 150 thousand miles, then, as the problems started to happen, I would scrap them and buy another.  To my mind, that's the best and cheapest way to deal with older cars.

Good luck.

 

[Reducto]

I think when people talk about an older vehicle that will last forever, they mean it will keep running for several hundred thousand miles without requiring major overhauls such as an engine rebuild or new transmission. They aren't taking into account minor repairs and the troubleshooting that goes with them. When I had my old Toyota it would occasionally not start. If I let it sit for an hour the problem would go away. I eventually connected the dots with the help of an online forum and it took $5 and 20 minutes replace the starter solenoid contacts. Because it was cheap and easy (for me) I did not file this repair in my head under unreliable, it got filed under fun puzzle that I got to solve. If I had to take it into a mechanic for this they wouldn't be able to reproduce it and would either not do anything or start throwing parts at it. If I were really lucky they'd throw the right part (probably a rebuilt starter) on the first try and charge me $500. Unlucky, who knows how much it could wind up costing me.

So yeah - I'd go newer if you can afford it. I agree that 50k-80k and 5 years old is a good place where it should still be trouble free but won't cost as much.

 

[poncho62]

Older vehicles are fine if you can do your own work....If not, buy something newer. But that
still doesnt guarantee that its never going to break down.

 

[lambchopxoxo]

There are probably a few issues... one, the definition of reliable and well-maintained. There really is a lot of variance when it comes to mechanics. You are far more likely to quickly and easily troubleshoot an issue with a mechanic that is expert or near expert on your particular vehicle, not just a generic "certified mechanic". Also, realize that you will NOT be out of the water with regard to mechanical issues if you buy new. You will for a little while, but depending on the vehicle you may start having problems sooner rather than later.

I would recommend used and then drive it for a year to work out the bugs. Take it to several mechanics (Ive been to every Honda dealer in my area, and I can tell you that there are differences in expertise with all of them). If you do that and they all say basically the same thing, you know you likely are not being scammed. I know people will disagree with me, but I prefer the dealer over an independent just because the dealers have to answer to Honda corporate, so if I have no leverage at the dealer if something goes wrong, then I can go to corp. That just hasnt happened though, and this isnt my first Honda.

Another thing that a lot of women seem to be opposed to is knowing their own vehicle. Get a shop manual for it and read it. It can be boring as all get-out, but you will at least know where everything is under the hood. Also, ask your mechanic to show you things or explain stuff when they are checking out or fixing things on your vehicle, and finally, educate yourself on maintenance intervals. You can expect to need a new water pump just generically speaking at about 100,000 miles, for example. If you do that and get major things replaced before they fail, you'll be in a lot better spot.

You drop 20-25K on a newer used vehicle unless you pay cash you have a new set of problems in the 5 years after you've paid it off. Personally I would rather put the monthly payment aside in an emergency fund for repairs.

 

[skyl4rk]

Expecting to have a vehicle that does not require repair is like expecting to have a dog without dogshit.

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

I'm a huge advocate of buying as new as you can afford with the lowest mileage you can find. I don't think the 80's and early 90's were very good times for vehicles in general and they produced some real crappy vehicles during those years. Newer vehicles in my opinion just ride and drive so much nicer. I think your Dad saying to go with 2000 or newer is very good advice, especially if you can't do the work yourself. There are no guarantees with any used vehicles of course, but mechanical parts being subjected to wear and tear......the newer they are and the less mileage they have is a good baseline to judge just how much wear and tear they've been subjected to. Then it's playing the role of detective from there.......finding out as much as you can about the vehicle you're interested in. Service records, owner history, major repairs or accidents, etc.

 

[Matlock]

The average age of passenger cars and light trucks on the road today is 11.5 years -- the highest ever! (source: IHS Automotive survey)
The average length of ownership for a new vehicle is now 77.8 months.
The average length of ownership for a used vehicle is now 63 months.
The number of vehicles on the road that are six to 14 years old and are most likely to need repairs is now 120 million.
The average amount motorists spend on auto repairs per year ranges from $303 to $487 depending on the year, make and model of vehicle (source: CarMD)

My opinion, most folks sell their car when it begins to have problems. Second is that most dealers do not fix things that are wrong with the car that was just traded in, they auction it and let the next owner worry about it.
Trucks are a whole other animal. Most individual buyers (not fleet) are brand partial and will fix/have fixed anything that rattles or boink's within a couple weeks of the first sign of a problem. (It's their baby and it needs some love).

I'd find a one-owner van less than 12 yrs old with under 90K. And from an individual that has the receipts for any work ever done to it.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/car_parts_replaced.htm
The link is an example of "Most often replaced parts" and roughly what the odometer reading will be.

 

[bullfrog]

Most older vehicles {1950 to 1985) got to be 5 or 10 years old with 100,000 miles on them before window cranks, heater motors, u joints, and regular maintenance parts had to be replaced. Newer vehicles (1986 t0 2000) lasted as long as 10 to 15 years old but because of developing emissions systems and attempts at better fuel economy and use of poorer grade fuels running temperatures went up and depending on makers vehicles lasted 75,000 to 250,000 miles but required more maintenance. As makers learned more and oils got better modern cars (2000 to present) vehicles can be expected to last up to 300,000 miles if maintained with quality materials. The problem today is replacement parts don't seem to be as well made and makers are not wanting to make information available to the public to maintain vehicles as they want you to buy one of their new vehicles.

 

[SoulRaven]

Such a vehicle is not cheap.  If you don't have the money for something like that, then the only other answer is to keep a repair fund and be prepared to use it.

That was the most frustrating thing...with my older rig I never had 2 months in a row without being forced to spend hundreds on repairs. With my $733/month income, I soon spun myself into debt with that. I read of everyone having an emergency repair fund and I was like, "but, if you're using it every single month, there's really no chance to save up for it..."

Also, SSI restrictions prevent my total accounts from going over $2000, so that prevents most emergency saving.

I think when people talk about an older vehicle that will last forever, they mean it will keep running for several hundred thousand miles without requiring major overhauls such as an engine rebuild or new transmission. They aren't taking into account minor repairs and the troubleshooting that goes with them. When I had my old Toyota it would occasionally not start. If I let it sit for an hour the problem would go away. I eventually connected the dots with the help of an online forum and it took $5 and 20 minutes replace the starter solenoid contacts. Because it was cheap and easy (for me) I did not file this repair in my head under unreliable, it got filed under fun puzzle that I got to solve. If I had to take it into a mechanic for this they wouldn't be able to reproduce it and would either not do anything or start throwing parts at it. If I were really lucky they'd throw the right part (probably a rebuilt starter) on the first try and charge me $500. Unlucky, who knows how much it could wind up costing me.

Ahh, that makes sense. Okay. Yeah that issue would not fly in my life--one hour would mean missed essential doctor's appointments and the difference between normal drive time and severe rush hour.

Another thing that a lot of women seem to be opposed to is knowing their own vehicle. Get a shop manual for it and read it. It can be boring as all get-out, but you will at least know where everything is under the hood. Also, ask your mechanic to show you things or explain stuff when they are checking out or fixing things on your vehicle, and finally, educate yourself on maintenance intervals. You can expect to need a new water pump just generically speaking at about 100,000 miles, for example. If you do that and get major things replaced before they fail, you'll be in a lot better spot.

You drop 20-25K on a newer used  vehicle unless you pay cash you have a new set of problems in the 5 years after you've paid it off. Personally I would rather put the monthly payment aside in an emergency fund for repairs.

I'm not opposed to it in the least--I recently signed up for an online accredited course in vehicle maintenance, and I would have bought a shop manual for my old van but my dad talked me out of it, saying there was nothing in there that couldn't be found in generic shop manuals. I'm totally enthusiastic about learning as much as I possibly can about the vehicle I'm driving and I ask anyone who knows more than me to show me the ropes any chance I get. I definitely know where everything is under the hood. I've also spent a fair bit of time lying under both of my vehicles, trying to figure stuff out. I love knowing as much as I can about my vehicle!

Sadly that hasn't actually done me a whole lot of good.

Unfortunately I can't have much of an emergency fund due to SSI restrictions, but neither can I drop 20-25K down on anything. I'm starting to realize that I simply might not able to afford reliability in a rig larger than a minivan. My current vehicle is reliable, and I want to upgrade but not if it means returning to the days where mechanics consumed the whole of my time, money, and energy.

Expecting to have a vehicle that does not require repair is like expecting to have a dog without dogshit.

That isn't what I'm expecting. To use your analogy, I need a dog that doesn't have constant uncontrolled diarrhea all over the house.

 

[cyndi]

I've always had older rigs. One of my considerations when purchasing is the number of owners and that maintenance and repair records are available from at least the current owner and that the current owner has put some miles on it.

After purchasing I change out the belts and hoses and do all the basic maintenance before any major traveling. This will give my mechanic a chance to look over the vehicle a couple of times and me a chance to get to know it's sounds and how it drives.

 

[lambchopxoxo]

Thats unfortunate on your emergency savings restrictions.

I'm very surprised that your mechanical knowledge hasnt helped you. Its true that what knowledge I have hasnt helped in every situation, but I have done a few things on my own that a dealer would have charged probably double for (A/C transistor assembly .. .part and a screwdriver). Plus it helps you to not get duped or scammed.

The mechanical problems really put a damper on all of the fun.

I wish you luck in finding a scenario that works for you and that whatever you do you'll be happy and content.

 

[donaldelectrician]

Older Vans have gone up big time in price around here . Craigs list is filled with junk at high dollar .

 I have built my own engines and have done all my mechanical work in the past .

As far as a Van that last ? It would be the Old Volkswagon with a Upright Engine .
700,000 plus miles . Yea I am old .


Darn , I miss that Van . Door Skin Mahogany finished inside like a boat cabin .
Gas millage 25 highway ... I did put a smaller size Jets in the carburetor ....

The ground clearance is awesome for crossing streams and getting back in the woods .

1960 to 1971 can take the " Upright Engine "



D

 

[Gary68]

i bought a run down but low milage 85 chevy 4x4 did top end,shocks,tie rods and have been beating to death for 15 years now,no break downs

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Also, SSI restrictions prevent my total accounts from going over $2000, so that prevents most emergency saving.

Not to suggest that you do anything illegal - Perish the Thought!  I'm sure everyone here would be Shocked!, Shocked I Tell You!, that anyone here would suggest you do anything illegal.

But, purely out of idle curiosity, how exactly would the damned government know what you have stashed under your mattress, or buried in your back yard?

 

[Txjaybird]

One thing I rarely hear others speak of but have used myself are shop or tech classes in public schools.  Also community colleges and some Tech. schools.  Depending on the courses that are taught  they may have low cost products and services........from hair cuts to plants to automotive repairs.  

Years ago right before moving from AL to TX my falcon station wagon was broadsided.  As I was driving forward I had seconds to either hit  a guy head on who was stopped at a stop sign or  drive straight down in a ditch.  I ditched it....wagon totaled & I was concussed.

A county LEO offered to sell me an unmarked sheriffs' car that needed some work....at the local automotive tech school the instructors went over the car in class, I purchased the needed parts and the labor was free.   I talked to that car all the way to TX.....I promised if it would just get me to TX I would park it in a nice shady spot and it would never have to move again.  I LIED  we made it and I drove it for 3ys.

As for savings I know how hard it is to save money that sometimes isn't there to be saved. Several years ago  I finally told a well intended family member " if I have to do without a loaf of bread for a week before my SSD hits the bank would you tell me where this money is cause I'll sure as  *&*&&*  save it.

 I always pull money out for cash purchases...........and put cash away at home.     When the banks failed at the beginning of the depression and then when the savings and loans went belly up I think at lot of people not only lost their cash but even jobs and homes....and sadly some even their lives. 

 I really hate anyone "monitoring" my spending or nosing into my bank accounts...with the internet {skynet is aware}  all of our lives seem to be accesable to too many people.

 

[SoulRaven]

Not to suggest that you do anything illegal - Perish the Thought!  I'm sure everyone here would be Shocked!, Shocked I Tell You!, that anyone here would suggest you do anything illegal.

But, purely out of idle curiosity, how exactly would the damned government know what you have stashed under your mattress, or buried in your back yard?

They track withdrawals and require an accounting of where the money went.

I've learned to avoid withdrawing cash. An audit is done every 2 years and they are completely incompetent at it. E.g. despite having the old van purchase from November 2014 well documented and on my record, I have had to explain it all over again multiple times the past 3 months, each time to someone who's acting like I've concealed it from them this whole time. I'm like "I reported it right afterwards, I also explained it to you last month, plus it's on my record, literally on the print-out you sent to me two months ago. It's also highlighted and explained in my printed notes that I returned to you to correct all the other errors a week later. Please read my case file and your questions will be answered." But do they do that? Nooooo that would be too easy...

They are an absolute nightmare to work with. Every 2 years I spend a few months pulling my hair out because of it as they threaten my income right and left and are quite rude to me. The more simplistic I can be on the books the easier it goes. During the review before this one, 4 years ago I actually had to contact my congressman for help. The appointed liaison was very helpful. It hasn't been necessary this time...yet.

I'm working on trying to patch together enough income to get off SSI without going under, as the restrictions and the stress are significantly stifling.

One thing I rarely hear others speak of but have used myself are shop or tech classes in public schools.  Also community colleges and some Tech. schools.  Depending on the courses that are taught  they may have low cost products and services........from hair cuts to plants to automotive repairs. 

Yep, last year I called around all the local schools with automotive classes and inquired about them working on my rig. Of the several I called, only one said they could do it, but it had to wait until the next school quarter. Fortunately, it was an issue that could wait that long. You can read the story in this thread.

Many automotive programs now have stricter criteria for which vehicles they work on. One that I called said they had only just recently changed the policy to only work on vehicles of the students or faculty, or direct relatives of such.

The place I managed to get the work done at is a dealer training school, they have a lot of dealership donations and are top of the line with a lot of what they do, it's pretty awesome. Unfortunately it also means that they aren't going to work on older vehicles, as it's not the focus of their program. My 2004 Sienna got in just under the wire. They also do not include Ford in their line-up of training vehicles, which I read here would be the most reliable mechanically. And, finally, the dealership donations do not get auctioned or go to worthy causes once the school is finished with them. Rather, they are crushed--with a dealership representative observing to confirm that the vehicle has, indeed, been completely destroyed. :s

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I'm sorry, Bitty.  I had no idea the bastards were that intrusive.

 

[steamjam1]

IMHO, it depends on:

The starting condition of the rig.

Your level of mechanical ability.

Your driving/maintenance habits.

Don't do what I did which was to start with junk. I bought my '89 for $800 in 2013 when I started van dwelling, and within the first 24 hours of living in it the alternator and brakes went out. Then I decided to fix-it-forward and replaced just about everything under the hood sans the engine and transmission over the next 4 months. And its been perfectly reliable ever since.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

it depends on the mileage, condition at purchase which will tell a lot about the previous maintenance and very important where it has lived all it's life. A well maintained low mileage, garaged, 25 year old rig driven in a dry salt free climate, can be in far better condition then 5 year old marginally maintained vehicle that has spent it's life outside, in the snow and salt.