buyer be a ware: Morningstar Sun Saver Duo

[safarivan]

hi everybody, this is not a rant thread but a 'my experience with' thread and Im a new guy here too so please take it easy if ive made a mis post.

I just wanted to let others know about the Sun Saver Duo solar charge controller from Morningstar designed specifically for RVs.

my experience started with lots of online study into solar (PV) systems trying to get it right the first time on my first PV system.  all research indicated the Sun Saver Duo (SSD) was it for two separate (isolated) battery systems so I bought two of these, both with the RM1 remote meters included in the kit but available with or without.

I bought two just in case something happened to one of them so I had a back up.

installed it in my van with a brand new expensive AGM house battery on bank one (B1) output and B2 output to the starting battery (also an AGM optima brand)

got it all hooked up correctly with proper wiring to spec and everything seemed to be working. cool! so a few days later the meter shows a high voltage record on B1 of 15.7 which was well above the specs and the battery manufacturers specs so I called them and spoke with their techs who said it should never do that, try this, this, this and this and see it it resolves the problem.

OK, so I did everything they said and it seemed to be OK for a week or two then the high voltage showed up again! this time even higher @ +16v

called again and told them they told me to send it to them and they would send a replacement. great! I'll just install my back up one and wait for the new one.

so same deal happened a few days later, high voltage records. hmmm. not good. but it was only happening when I didnt notice it so I called them and told them and by this time I had the new replacement so I swapped it out too and told them about it.

I also asked how I can log in realtime and they sold me a couple of components for this so that I could hook it into a laptop and log on there.

took a while to figure this all out and get it working but I did (lots of time actually, its complicated and several back and forth calls about it) I finally had a 24/7 log showing not only =16v but several +17v spikes for extended periods and one of these spiked periods popped the caps on the AGM and out gassed its contents which ruins the battery!

I was pissed now because the battery cost more than three times their controller does! I call them but refrain any emotions, they send me another one right away without requiring me to send back first. this would be the fourth one I had gotten from them.

I replaced it again and same deal! this time I had many hours logged and I was noticing a pattern. it was doing it when the cloud cover was rapidly changing from heavy clouds to full sun. not a very frequent weather condition but nevertheless, voltage spikes every time this occurs! repeatable on all three SSD controllers and have the logs.

called them again but by this time I had already begain to suspect they knew of the problems but anyway they said there is nothing more they can do. the didnt even ask for the logs or all the other weather data I had to back up my claim that these units were faulty and will ruin expensive batteries, consistently!

they just said I should return them to NAWS where I bought them but it had taken a year to figure all this out so even though NAWS is a great (perhaps the best) company, these were clearly beyond any warranty by them. when I asked them if they wanted their replacement back they said keep it. which in no way makes up for the ruined AGM batteries totaling upto over $1000. keep it?


will never buy anything no matter how good or well priced it is. the other stuff may be fine but this particular unit is defective. and all of them. I tested four of them and can recreate the fault every time these weather conditions present themselves. have all the data..

now for anyone else who has an SSD controller, it only occurs on AGM batteries and only on bank one output. bank two never spikes. just so you know and you may want to hook up you most expensive sets to bank two if not there already.

Ive seen it get spikes with wet cells too but not as high and I havnt tested them much as my rig requires AGMs due to how they are mounted. I never tested any jell cell batteries at all so I can confirm or deny the SSD will cook fry those.

to anyone else considering the SSD controller, this was three years ago now and they continue to sell these faulty units and many salemen swear by them not knowing anything except they are great for RVs

hopefully this brief write up will save someone else the hassle. fried batteries and money.

 

[jimindenver]

Is there a possibility that one of the batteries are connected to the alternator?

 

[safarivan]

Is there a possibility that one of the batteries are connected to the alternator?

thanks for asking. I forgot to mention this. I ran and logged two of these units at the same time, one in a trailer with no other charging mechanisms to further confirm the data.

same deal in the trailer, has to be a specific weather condition but when that condition is present, two separate systems do this. not to mention an alternator doesnt spike like that unless it is also defective and the engine must be running.

and Ive rewired them in every possible configuration it can be wired according to the manufacturers specs and even reran higher than spec wires through out too along the way.


 these units are defective. I wouldnt even write that if I had no evidence to back it up and could not re produce the results of the defect.

I learned alot from this and now also have the equipment and know how to data log all types of charging systems outside of PV ones. I can evaluate any type of charger performance and lots of other things now but it was a costly and time consuming lesson.

 

[Canine]

That flat out sucks.

I had a similar problem with a Craftsman 3/8 ratchet from their "Professional" line up of tools. The square drive was manufactured just a hair too large so that sockets wouldn't fit all the way on it. When I went to remove the socket, I needed a large screwdriver to pry it off. No big deal as those things happen. So I called Sears, told them the problem, and they sent me a mailing label so I could send it to them. When they received it and verified that it was defective, they sent me a new one.

With the exact same defect.

Now I was irked. I called them up and told them what happened. Sears said they would replace that one, too. I made it clear that I didn't want to go through the same routine only to have the same problem. To avoid the same thing happening again, all they had to do was put a socket on the square drive to make sure a socket would actually snap on the ratchet before they shipped it off. Easy peasy, right? No. They said they couldn't do that. I told them that was ridiculous and that they could put a socket on a ratchet. (I literally told them that was ridiculous; didn't pull any punches here.) They said they couldn't. I said fine- if this replacement has the same defect, I will never buy another product from them again. Furthermore, I would dissuade anyone else from buying their product. Sears said ok.

The next replacement also had the exact same defect. I even looked for my engraved initials to see if they had been erroneously sending me back the original ratchet. I called them up and told them what happened. They said they would replace that ratchet, too. I said with yet another one with the same defect? They said possibly. I said your ratchet is going in the trash and I won't ever buy anything from you again and if I have any influence, I will try to keep other people from buying your product as well. They politely apologized for any inconvenience and asked if I had any more questions that day. I hung up.

I've never purchased a product of theirs since that day about 15 years ago. They've lost a few hundred dollars over a $35 ratchet. How fantastically simple minded does a company have to be to treat someone like that? The problem was stupendously easy to remedy, but they steadfastly refused.

Morningstar likely won't get any of my money, either. I don't have room in my life to be given the runaround like that. Especially, at the cost of losing a $1000 battery. That's like me working a month for free to pay for someone else's mistake (I make about $1000/month). Morningstar generally makes a great product, but I won't buy a great product at the expense of horrible customer service. Yeah, they spoke nicely on the phone and sent out several new controllers for free, but that alone doesn't make good customer service. A company must stand behind their product- Morningstar did not.

I would bet $1000 that Blue Sky Energy would have stood behind their product.

 

[jimindenver]

Thank you for the report. I installed one of these earlier this year and will warn the owner of it.

 

[safarivan]

I was noticing a pattern. it was doing it when the cloud cover was rapidly changing from heavy clouds to full sun.

upon rereading what I had written here I see the need to clarify this.

since I can no longer edit that post I need to post this here.

I should have wrote instead:

it was doing it when the cloud cover was rapidly changing from heavy clouds to full sun and back to clouds.


in other words, when the breaks between clouds and full sun is changing back and forth somewhat quickly like it would on windy days but sometimes it wasnt all that windy, it was just cloud cover changing back and forth rather quickly.

If you have one of these units you should be able to verify it by watching the meter when it is set to display battery one voltage. but even if youre not watching it, it will save the high and low voltages.

if you do not have the meter then the only way you would be able to notice would be with some other voltage meter.

when I first started noticing this, I made several web searches on various forums where people discuss solar PV equipment and I found two others back then that had previously written about this issue. one was a year or more prior. but they hadnt nailed it down like I did at the time. they were only reporting the voltage spikes. I tried to make contact with them but was not successful.


without setting up the data logging equipments one can not determin how long the voltage spikes lasted either.


Im sure there are others here somewhere with these controllers, they were specifically designed for RVs and at the time they were the only ones like this. maybe still are?

 

[DLTooley]

That momentary spike may be a problem that is common to all controllers and is not necessarily harmful. Is there any evidence of battery damage?

Those are equalization voltages and MIGHT even be beneficial.

 

[John61CT]

Does your data logger show the duration of the spike, or just a single maximum voltage level?

I agree if it is just momentary and occasional, would not harm a lead bank.

Some consumer load devices are sensitive though.

 

[highdesertranger]

he said it was enough to pop the caps on his AGM and out gas the contents. see post #1. highdesertranger

 

[John61CT]

Yes, that's no good. . .

Only on bank 1 output?

I wouldn't base a design on multiple-bank charge sources, they're rare and usually fraudulently marketed.

So many other better ways to go, one based on an ACR, DC-DC or Echo Charger lets you use and swap out whatever devices you want over time without changing the system overall.

But Morningstar in general has a great engineering rep, this report is surprising.

 

[squatting dog]

I've got to take the flip side of this issue. I've got a sunsaver duo in my motorhome, and it works flawlessly. right now It's set on 80-20. 80% to the aux. battery bank in the rear of the coach, and 20% to the 2 batteries that are the factory installed coach batteries. The factory coach batteries are also charged by the alt. when running down the road, and there have been no problems with that either. On top of that, whenever I'm sitting somewhere, I slip a jumper wire onto the chassis start battery from the coach ones to keep it charged. I should also mention, that my coach batteries are all flooded wet cell, and the chassis battery is an AGM. Again, all this setup has worked now for over 4 years. I also added some 12v. batteries to my series connected 6v. batteries for some extra amp hours. Lots of people say it can't be done, but, that doesn't always make it so.

 

[JD GUMBEE]

Sounds to me like you need to have a conversation with someone above the "8.50 per hour teleprompter" level.
I would send these experiences to them.
Also, keep the defective unit and recreate the issue.
If you really have found a bug, the company will make good.
They are pretty solid.
Be a squeaky wheel with them.

 

[frater secessus]

Temp sensor installed?

DIP switches set for "sealed" type batteries?

 

[frater secessus]

Sounds to me like you need to have a conversation with someone above the "8.50 per hour teleprompter" level.

While I agree, I will say that support techs are often forced by bean-counting management to adhere to a script. 

It's as frustrating for the tech as it is for the caller so try not to beat them up too much.   A tech might stay late "on their own time and their own dime" to help out a cooperative caller;  they won't do that for a someone who is obnoxious (not talking about anyone in this thread).

 

[John61CT]

> I've got to take the flip side of this issue

That would mean putting a data logging voltage meter on your setup to see if there are any spikes over a period of time.

Saying "I have not seen any problems with this model" does not contradict the OP's observation.

 

[John61CT]

A bit of google fu turns up some previous mentions of the issue, e.g. http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/comment/67362#Comment_67362

But I don't see reports of it actually harming a bank.

 

[safarivan]

I've got to take the flip side of this issue. I've got a sunsaver duo in my motorhome, and it works flawlessly. right now It's set on 80-20. 80% to the aux. battery bank in the rear of the coach, and 20% to the 2 batteries that are the factory installed coach batteries. The factory coach batteries are also charged by the alt. when running down the road, and there have been no problems with that either. On top of that, whenever I'm sitting somewhere, I slip a jumper wire onto the chassis start battery from the coach ones to keep it charged. I should also mention, that my coach batteries are all flooded wet cell, and the chassis battery is an AGM. Again, all this setup has worked now for over 4 years. I also added some 12v. batteries to my series connected 6v. batteries for some extra amp hours. Lots of people say it can't be done, but, that doesn't always make it so.

hi Squating dog,

its only when all batteries are AGM. pretty sure I mentioned this, if not this is the case for sure.

I still use the controller I put in the trailer to maintain wet cell batteries. after several months straight of 24/7 data logging it I no longer log it and just use it for battery maintenance and for the trailer alarm system when its parked un hitched and left by itself somewhere.

I still have it in the RV aswell but bank 1 is not used at all now. when its time to replace the optima AGM starting battery I may replace it with a wet cell and use the controller on that one but this optima is still good.

if I do 'trust' it again, it wont be before logging it quite a while again then reviewing all the logs to be sure it doesnt hit +17v like it does with the AGMs

 

[safarivan]

Temp sensor installed?

DIP switches set for "sealed" type batteries?

yep, yep.

spent a whole lot of time trying everything, at first all the tecnically correct specs then started experimenting with others to see if they would inadvertently resolve the issue.

also a wide variety of custom settings, worked with the devs on improving the 'msview' software which had several bugs and then discovered it was originally an open source software written by an individual who never even worked for morningstar! now have the original open source code and several of MS forks closures of it.

 

[John61CT]

The fact that it's only an issue with AGM batts is very interesting.

It is a legacy SC design, from before AGMs were widely used for solar storage, maybe the issue lies with FLA's lower acceptance rate.

I can understand Morningstar not wanting to put resources into retrofitting such an old model, but I guess if it is a systemic design issue that isn't just triggered by something unique to the OP's setup, it should be flagged as "for use with flooded batts only".

 

[safarivan]

While I agree, I will say that support techs are often forced by bean-counting management to adhere to a script. 

It's as frustrating for the tech as it is for the caller so try not to beat them up too much.   A tech might stay late "on their own time and their own dime" to help out a cooperative caller;  they won't do that for a someone who is obnoxious (not talking about anyone in this thread).

at first with very little knowledge behind me when communicating with them I had to 'trust' that they were being forthright and honorable. then after learning more and more specific technology as I went along it started to become more apparent they were not actually trying to learn of a potential problem in these units but trying to lead me off the trail.

it became obvious that the only way the defect (and possible frauds in dealing with it) would be corrected was with legal warfare and by this time I had already invested way too much time into this already.

perhaps they have actually corrected it by now but if the msview software updates are any indication, with even the most basic and simple bugs not being addressed with that that were reported and acknowledged many years ago, it seems doubtful.