Alternative Winter Heating

[DannyB1954]

For years I worked outside on the graveyard shift San Francisco waterfront. I was a reefer mechanic working on shipping containers. Winter nights do get cold there, (home water pipes freeze). We used metal sheds that were open on the front. We moved them from container to container with a forklift. I insulated my shed with sheets of cardboard. I glued several layers together.

It does rain there and is damp with fog. I sealed up the cardboard with latex paint. The paint makes it very water resistant. Probably also acts as a fire retardant. I used an oxygen acetylene torch on a regular basis. Some will say it can burn. Just about everything inside a vehicle will burn. If you don't set it on fire, it won't.

There are advantages and disadvantages to everything. I am leaning towards if it does get wet, can the water dry out easy. In most vehicles from the factory they use floor insulation near the engine area. They use a type of fiber mat, (kind of like the denim insulation). How many people have had their floor rust out, (where they don't use salt on the roads)? Not any here in Southern Nevada. The problem I see with foam is if water does get behind it, (from condensation or whatever), it doesn't dry quickly. Cloth seats, headliners, and carpeting don't seem to mold. I guess it is because they can dry out easy. put them under plastic and let them get wet. Maybe a different story.

 

[Headache]

No reason for snarkiness.

No reason to be insulting and accusatory.  I've noticed others have had issues using the PM system but I am new here so I'm not aware of everyone who can't.  Since 3 people did a similar thing right away I simply repeated my request using highlighting to make it more obvious and to keep things on topic.  Derailments are best done via PM if one can use it.  Thank you for respecting my request moving forward.

highdesertranger

a warning to anyone using a mail box or anything else not meant to be a wood stove as a wood stove.  most mail boxes are galvanized.

Many are also painted as are mine but a very good warning regardless.  These are meant for outdoor use and must be burned off before using to cook with.  They are for temporary use ONLY and wont last very long.  I have a couple of mailboxes I can use.

anewbiewannabe

So, there would be 3 temperature zones in the van---

So, since the woodstove has been mentioned too... if they're attached (?!?!) to the vehicle does that prevent them from being subject to the fire bans?

Yes I did plan to make a smaller space for sleeping using the cardboard idea and hanging some blankets but not anything reflective.  I'm only assuming that I'd be able to air things out during the day when it warms up and with the wind.  I can use light blankets to sleep under but too much clothes or heavy blankets or I start feeling suffocated while asleep and start throwing them off waking myself in the process.  I'm not claustrophobic but definitely don't like being constricted in movement or breath.

Good question on the stove being attached.  My assumption is that if it's my only source of heat and a stove is inside I *MIGHT* be able to get a pass but I have absolutely no clue about that.  Most burn bans are regarding 2 types of burning; indoor and outdoor.  This is a grey area unless there is a law or regulation specifically addressing it.  Also most burn bans that I'm accustomed to are over with by mid-November and I've never camped in this area before.  Proceed with caution.  YMMV

DannyB1954

I was a reefer mechanic working on shipping containers.

You're hired!  I used to pull them and have considered making a house out of a couple of 20 footers.  It's too bad I couldn't use the same/similar principles as the insulated boxes in my van and there is a reefer unit on them for a reason.  I won't be getting the a/c in the van fixed anytime soon.

 

[DannyB1954]

"You're hired!  I used to pull them and have considered making a house out of a couple of 20 footers.  It's too bad I couldn't use the same/similar principles as the insulated boxes in my van and there is a reefer unit on them for a reason.  I won't be getting the a/c in the van fixed anytime soon. "


The reason there is a large reefer unit on the front of those is because the shipping industry can either ship product or insulation. They figure adequate insulation would take up too much cargo space, so they use the minimum and put a huge reefer on it to keep temps down. You would go broke trying to run that reefer. If engine driven they burn about a gallon an hour, If sea-going, (electric), they require 440 volts 3 phase, 30 amps. Some shippers like Matson used 220 volt 3 phase units, they require 50 amps. Of course some insulation is better than none, but if you wanted to live in a reefer container, you would have to add more. and replace the reefer it comes with with something smaller. On the sea-going containers the reefer is the front wall and not well insulated, so you would be really replacing the whole front wall.

What is wrong with your van A/C, do you know, (leak, electrical, compressor)?

 

[Not That Bob]

If you will be travelling daily, capture some of the wasted heat/energy from your engine.

So much energy is released from gasoline is wasted in the internal combustion engine as heat, use it.

When camping I carried a 12 x 12 tile and fire gloves.Before bed I would take the biggest stone (thermal mass) I could from the fire-pit ,using the gloves, and place it on the tile in the tent.Poor-mans radiant heater. The tile kept the floor of the tent from melting!  

Apply the same principal using a Japanese Yutanpo, METAL hot water bottle. METAL is in capitals on purpose. 
They are supposed to stay warm enough all night that you can wash using the warm water in the am.

Place it under the hood near a exhaust manifold while driving. When "home", place it in it's cover using fire gloves and place it in the bottom of your sleeping bag/covers near your feet for the night.

I guess with some creativity you could use some old 1 gallon containers  filled with water for thermal mass for a less efficient version.

Good luck, stay warm.

 

[LeeRevell]

No reason to be insulting and accusatory. 

There always two sides to an argument. I was responding to what I took as an offense. No "insulting and accusatory" given.
Now back to you regular channel......
My other comments, given as constructive, will stand as delivered.
Just trying to understand the reason for certain choices. We all make our own, and mine obviously differ from yours, as do my needs. I do have the advantage of living in a normally warmish climate. North Florida humidity is getting a bit high at the moment though......

 

[kayell]

Mylar emergency blankets and bivy sacks are good to have on hand and cheap. Not good for everyday use - you'll sweat too much. Getting damp and then cold is not good. But in unexpected super cold nights, sandwiching a emergency blanket between a couple of wool blankets, and maybe even one under your bottom sheet will keep you very toasty.

 

[DannyB1954]

I thought about running my engine cooling system through a storage tank inside the vehicle. It would be free hot water. The problem being weight. Water weighs 8 lb per gallon. I think it might take many gallons to heat a vehicle overnight. You can warm a bed with a hot water bottle, but you will not keep it warm all night that way.
Marine water heaters are built so that you can use engine heat to heat your domestic water. Keep in mind, if you do not run your engine that day, you will need to run a generator to power up the heating element. https://www.mygreenoutdoors.com/wha...terior-f600/?gclid=CJ6v94rd784CFY-EaQod9xoClg

 

[rvpopeye]

The RV water heater in my old class A had a engine coolant coil to heat the water while I drove ,,,,worked great. I added a bus style heater to heat the rig interior too.
I also used those bus heaters in all of my pickup bed campers as well. Always had a warm bunk , even in super cold winter temps..

 

[Headache]

but if you wanted to live in a reefer container, you would have to add more. and replace the reefer it comes with with something smaller.

What is wrong with your van A/C, do you know, (leak, electrical, compressor)?

Oh I'd never live in one.  Sorry for being vague.  Most people who work on cans are also welders and electricians of some sort(the you're hired part).  I'd never use an insulated can because the corten would have to be cut with a torch and that insulation in it is some nasty stinky crap wafting off after being hit with a torch!  That reefer would be too expensive anyway.

Dunno on the a/c.  Since I've rarely had an actual need for it up here I haven't bothered to look into it.  Tires and exhaust were higher on the priority list.

If you will be travelling daily, capture some of the wasted heat/energy from your engine.

Not enough to warm anything up with TBH.  I'm going to "try" and spend a nice relaxing winter not doing much except a few things on my agenda and finding out what others of the human race are doing.  I've heard there are a few nice people here and there and thought I might find some!  

Mylar emergency blankets and bivy sacks are good to have on hand and cheap. Not good for everyday use - you'll sweat too much. Getting damp and then cold is not good.

I can't use them.  I get too hot and toss them off shortly after falling asleep but definitely a great idea for those who can!

No "insulting and accusatory" given.
 
My other comments, given as constructive...

To the first comment yes they were and to the second comment no they weren't.  I refer you to these for the appropriate information to clear up confusion:

The Rules of the Forum: February, 2014

https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-The-Rules-of-the-Forum-February-2014

Respect is a Requirement for Membership Here

https://vanlivingforum.com/Thread-Respect-is-a-Requirement-for-Membership-Here

Again, I would appreciate you NOT continuing this discussion in this thread.  Thank you.

The RV water heater in my old class A had a engine coolant coil to heat the water while I drove ,,,,worked great. I added a bus style heater to heat the rig interior too.
I also used those bus heaters in all of my pickup bed campers as well. Always had a warm bunk , even in super cold winter temps..

Those bus heaters worked great unless you were the kids stuck in the back of the bus!  Well, in older buses anyway.  In a pickup camper that's a fabulous idea.  Did you use some kind of quick disconnects or did you not remove the camper?


Okay!  As far as a temporary heat solution I am going to use AMMO CANS!!  There is a fair bit of construction involved however one method does NOT use welding!  Again, sorry for the videos and I promise I will be posting a build thread on my blog with details and pics of what I did.  These are the videos that have inspired me:

  (I'd love this one or a variation but no build instructions until 100 requests occur)
  (The no welding build!)
  (The insert for better burning and longer lasting cans)

I'm going to put in a window door similar to the first video, use the building methods in the 2nd and the insert shown in the 3rd one.  I'm also going to use high temp woodstove adhesive to make sure it's as air tight as possible as well as installing some kind of intake tube for fresh air from outside rather than from inside the van.  I'm using "Fat .50" cans which are slightly bigger than standard .50 caliber cans.

This is for warming up the van when temps get too cold only.  It's not for consistent burning like a house wood stove nor for cooking(with the exception of occasionally warming up precooked food and morning tea water).  I'll have a camp wood stove and Sterno for regular cooking and reheating food.  My joints will thank me profusely once they have warmed up and so will the dog.

 

[DannyB1954]

For a window I would use mica. regular glass will shatter, and high temp glass is expensive. Mica is semi transparent and can handle the heat.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00161O5UI/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

how to cut

I would also make a shower from a garden sprayer bottle and a water nozzle used to rinse dishes. This will also double as a handy fire extinguisher you can use the stove to heat the water as well, (for a shower).

For quick heating I would use a rocket stove design.

 

[highdesertranger]

Headache please be very safe and burn the ammo cans out side until all the paint and coating is removed from the can. I didn't watch the vids to see if they mentioned this. highdesertranger

 

[rvpopeye]

The PU campers were home built jobs.
24" wall on top of the bed rails , cap on top of that , plywood wall in the back with a vertical door , and the removed cap door window installed in the ply door. 2-4" of insulation , 1" over the windows in removable "boxes" and 1/4" luan finishing it up.
I had a switch on the dash for the htr fan and manual valves on the coolant hoses split off from the cab heater hoses. It was warm enough upta Maine winters and used a propane heater and a 20# tank for after that cooled off .....

 

[Tussah]

I lived in the Colorado Rockies for 15 years, and hated to spend money on heating.  During the winters, the thermostat was set at 40 degrees, except on weekend days when I was home, and not always even then.  Here's what I did to keep warm:

1) warm bedding - down comforter and down pillows.  They are light weight and awesome for holding in body heat.
2) My cats slept with me, under the covers.  They kept me warm.  I kept them warm.  
3) To keep extremities warm, it's essential to keep the torso and head well insulated.   I packed pillows around my head, and left only an air hole for breathing.  Other people recommend wearing a balaclava.
4) Bring a hot water bottle to bed with you.  If you wrap it up, it will hold its heat for hours.
 
Here's how to dress to keep warm, Chinese Style:

4) Wool, and lots of it, on your torso.   Here's how my daughter and I learned to dress in China: http://www.tussah.com/diary/1999/1203.htm   If you can retain your body heat, then your body won't avoid sending warmth to your extremities.   

As other posters have mentioned, adding a 12 volt heating pad to your bed will also help keep you warm.  Here's a link to one that was  recommended to me, but there are several out there.    RV 12 volt heating pad

 

[Headache]

For a window I would use mica. regular glass will shatter, and high temp glass is expensive. Mica is semi transparent and can handle the heat.

Mica isn't airtight and I'm making this stove so that the only air coming in comes from outside in case of back drafting.  I'm going to pay the $50 or so(depends on how big a glass I decide) for this:

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...Stove-Glass/Replacement-Stove-Glass-Rectangle

It's worth it to keep exhaust outside.  I've been dealing with mica in the insert here in the house and never again.  It seems like every time the wind blows good I'm smelling smoke in the house.  I have a 3 gallon sprayer I used for a shower and dishes last year when the power was out for 4 days so it's already got a place in the van.  The rocket stove design is a maybe; it depends on materials I have on hand, can afford and time left before leaving.  It may not be necessary as it's not going to take long to heat the inside of a van.

Headache please be very safe and burn the ammo cans out side until all the paint and coating is removed from the can.  I didn't watch the vids to see if they mentioned this.  highdesertranger

Yes all 3 of them do and it's something I already knew but good for those that don't know.  ANY wood burning appliance needs a burn period before using as a heat source.

Tussah

I lived in the Colorado Rockies for 15 years, and hated to spend money on heating.  During the winters, the thermostat was set at 40 degrees, except on weekend days when I was home, and not always even then.  Here's what I did to keep warm:

As other posters have mentioned, adding a 12 volt heating pad to your bed will also help keep you warm.  Here's a link to one that was  recommended to me, but there are several out there.    RV 12 volt heating pad

That is all good info.  Keep it coming!  You don't know who you can help with it.

On the other hand I'm weird, broke and in a catch-22:  I have to use what's available to me for now.  After I have an emergency repair fund in place(a MUST!) I'll have more disposable cash to buy nicer things, such as solar.  However, I have to leave here in order to save that money so off I go!

In the winter I get asked quite often why I don't have more clothes on and my answer is always the same; I don't "need" it!  I drove my dad NUTS shoveling snow after a blizzard in 30 degree weather in just a sweatshirt and jeans but you can bet I had wool socks and gloves on!  After living in Cleveland and the Northeast for over 15 years he learned I can acclimate to cold much better than heat.

I am not able to pile on the blankets and such even when it gets cold.  I've always felt like I was suffocating and struggled to kick everything off.  I have a few light ones I can layer but I have to stop before they feel "heavy".  For cold weather I have a light comforter and 2 fleece blankets.  Any more than that and I can't sleep either from the weight or it getting too hot.

Due to poor circulation I'm opposite of others; if I keep my feet, hands and legs warm(in that order) the rest of me is good.  I hate jackets and only wear them when I know I'm going to be out in the bitter cold for an extended period of time.  If I'm sitting I'll grab a couple of blankets before I put on a jacket.  Other than my feet I'm pretty cold tolerant but all bets are off if it's cold, windy and raining.  That gets into my bones then so I'm under the blankets at that point.  Otherwise I'm that gal shoveling snow in a sweat shirt and jeans.  Probably build a snowman that way too.

If I have the money to buy a water bottle or heating pad(don't have the battery storage for that yet) it's going to keep the dog warm.  I get too hot using them.  I can't have her in bed with me and she is the only reason I'm concerned about being able to warm up and stay warm if necessary.

I have soooo much to get done but I can hardly wait to start on the ammo can wood stove!

 

[Zizzer_Zazzer_Zuz]

Here's where I got the idea from!

http://www.elkinsdiy.com/stoves/mailbox-stove-2/

Looks very interesting.  Before you burn it inside make sure that you burn several good fires in the mail box until the color of the metal starts to change.  That is likely galvanized steal and will make you sick if you breath the burning surface material.  Once the metal is annealed you're safe and you might line the inside with refractory cement.  If you can do an inch all around all the better but at least a good inch on the bottom will improve the longevity of the stove. 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Hercules-1-2-gal-Furnace-Stove-Cement-35515/202078154

You can often find cast iron grill pans in thrift stores and the would help add fantastic thermal mass.

https://www.amazon.com/Lodge-LDP3-D...id=1473725711&sr=8-5&keywords=cast+iron+grill

 

[DannyB1954]

I found this stove and with some simple mods I think it would work good. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0155324VO/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A19XE0CFLN81HP

 

[ZoNiE]

I skipped ahead, many apologies if not previously mentioned:

If out in the boonies, how about a camp fire with a barrel of water over it, and a battery operated pump circulating water from the drum to a repurposed transmission cooler in the vehicle. The fire (wood) provides the heat, the solar panel recharged battery provides the current for the pump. A computer fan behind the trans cooler to move the heat more rapidly...

Sure, you may need to stoke that fire once in the night, but maybe not. Coals stay hot a long time, and a large barrel of water will hold heat a long time too.

Or, just loop the water lines under your mattress or around the base of the vehicle. European RV's use hydronic heat, albiet a propane or 240V powered one (Alde).

 

[DannyB1954]

If you made it a steam boiler with inside radiator, you would not need a pump.
I would plumb in a relief valve, for the steam side and have a T fitting on the return line attached to a 5 gallon water tank.
http://www.hometips.com/how-it-works/heating-systems-steam-boiler.html
You could make it a single pipe radiator, or double. Web search gravity boiler heating.

If a campfire was used, it would be an unattended fire, and anymore illegal in most places. If made with a wood stove that heated a water pipe, may still be illegal.
The system would tend to be too large to store in a van. It would also be difficult to regulate the water temp. or amount of steam produced.

 

[Headache]

I found this stove and with some simple mods I think it would work good. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0155324VO/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A19XE0CFLN81HP

Out of sheer cheapness I ordered that stove only for it to be cancelled.  Even though it's an outdoor stove meant for tents/outside use it's illegal to be shipped to WA state because it's not a certified stove.  I'll have to wait until AZ to order it so I have a different address for it to be shipped to.

My plan is to build some kind of outdoor room I can enclose with a tarp that attaches to my van, but it would have to stand up to the desert wind gusts.  Or I park next to some tall bushes/short trees that act like wind breaks for it.  The room will serve a few purposes:

1) space for the woodstove that also provides heat in the van
2) outdoor cooking space
3) a place for my honey bucket so I can stand up(very important)
4) space for my little critters to stretch their legs

It would have to be very wind resistant because I wouldn't want it to topple over taking that little woodstove down with it.  I'm still going to make the ammo can wood stoves for inside the van.

I'm bummed!

 

[Headache]

Cool looking little stove with 5 star reviews. I just wonder about the "black galvanized finish" and fumes. They refer to it's being for outside use.

Yeppers!  They use high temp paint to make them look "purty" so it has to be burned off with a couple of fires before serious usage.  That was something I had planned on doing here but my evil plans were usurped! I also wanted to have someone fashion a new door for me that had a window in it and possibly change how the pipe goes in it but I'll have to find me a welder that can/will do that sort of thing. It's not "mine" without mods.