Yea or nay, good batteries to start a growing system?

[John61CT]

None of those are true deep cycling in that sense.

Rolls Surrette is at the top, routinely get 12-15 years proprly cared for.

US Battery, Crown, Superior are the next tier

Trojan and Deka/East Penn are IMO now pretty close, with Trojan getting a bit suspect lately, lots of marketing falsehoods out there.

That's pretty much it for good FLA.

Now a Lifeline AGM that costs $500+ per AH may last longer than an FLA costs $150 per AH, but the less expensive lines don't, and certainly the brands posters here usually buy don't come close.

Sternwake had Northstar BTW.

Right there in the cycles vs DoD charts, but likely Vmax doesn't publish theirs.

 

[Trebor English]

what??? why in the world is connecting batteries in parallel "bad"?? I need an explanation for that

I have seen two examples.  

I worked for a company that did maintenance on a radio system at a Canadian gold mine in Guyana.  They had 8 sheds each containing 7 VHF radio repeaters.  Each shed contained 7 8D size starter batteries commonly used in the mine equipment.  The batteries were parallel tied together with short fat cables.  About once a year a cell would short causing the defective cell to spew.  The other 6 batteries delivered lots of watts.  All the sheds got plastic shower curtains to keep the acid out of the radio repeaters.

In 8 years of school bus driving I saw the same thing once.  The school buses all had 2 starter batteries paralleled.  Now they come with 3.  When the bus is pulled over to the side of the road and the mechanic is disconnecting the stinking spewing batteries the mechanic's butt is exposed to traffic.  

There is also the thing where paralleled batteries get wired wrong and they don't get equally discharged and charged.

 

[WalkaboutTed]

Using a hydrometer is great. But a thing to keep in mind is that many vandwellers are older or disabled. I'm 58 and with significant arthritis. I can barely get out of the bed some mornings and laugh at loud at the thought of creaking on the floor down to where my battery bank is, armed with my hydrometer and jug of distilled water. Yeah, there's a reason why doing routine battery maintenance, just like sticking with a strict diet often does not work, we're human. That road to Hell is paved with great intentions.

Aside from other reasons, I'm lazy and know I wouldn't do as I should do. Flossing my teeth is literally in my face. Battery maintenance? Below my ass. Give me my AGMs.
Ted

 

[willprowse]

Yeah same here Ted. That sounds like way too much work.

I couldnt imagine putting gloves on, going out to a battery compartment, having baking soda ready, and checking the water levels of a flooded battery..... 3 times or more a day. Do people actually do that here? Man that would be horrible.

And I would gladly pay more for maintenance free sealed batteries. If you really need to know the SoC, just buy one of those nifty little shunts that calculates it for you.

 

[TinyHouseSolar]

Yeah same here Ted. That sounds like way too much work.

I couldnt imagine putting gloves on, going out to a battery compartment, having baking soda ready, and checking the water levels of a flooded battery..... 3 times or more a day. Do people actually do that here? Man that would be horrible.

And I would gladly pay more for maintenance free sealed batteries. If you really need to know the SoC, just buy one of those nifty little shunts that calculates it for you.

What about lithium batteries?  Aren't they a better bet all around because they are lighter and you don't have to worry about keeping them charged at 50%?

If I am going to install ~750 watts of solar on my RV, shouldn't I go for a lithium ion battery bank?

 

[John61CT]

Doing it right is very expensive $500-1200 per 100AH just for good cells, and also technically challenging, requires specialized charge sources, protective electronics.

If you want to get into the details, ask in an existing LFP thread, or start a new one.

 

[John TF]

Lots of bad info , in order to discuss the subject of batteries , we need to start from a base of facts / knowledge .
Then we can discuss the advantages / disadvantages of any type of battery .
A source of good battery info [ generally all types ] , there can be more specific deeper discussion of specific battery types / manufactures - but then we are limited to just a specific manufacture .

http://batteryuniversity.com/

I would say you can go a couple of different ways , the most common today is I do not want to be a technician / know all that is needed to get the most out of a system , or do maintenance ---- This is going to cost you the most [ if you find a good / quality source for buying and having installed ] - but then you pay for that , and can easily get stuck when an issue arises .
The other is to get known info - link above , so that you can design / build your own system , generally better performance , less money spent , longer lasting , and more efficient - because it is build for your needs , vs. a package from some where .

 

[WalkaboutTed]

"Lots of bad info"

Yes, going to that site is helpful. So, we should tell the original poster that, "sorry, we can't give you any specific, evidence based information on what we personally know, have seen, experienced, vis à vis FLA vs AGM batteries".

So, let's just not answer questions posed and refer them only to other "expert" sources? Uh...I thought this was a forum, not an educational institution.
Ted

 

[John61CT]

And in fact that site has lots of, inaccurate info, not a resource I would recommend

 

[WalkaboutTed]

Hey John,
After reading your post above, I took a closer look at the site referenced.
"The information is compiled from specifications and independent test laboratories as well as crowdsourcing. Average readings are used when practical rather than citing research papers, as lab results are often not repeatable in real life. This differs from scientific papers published by academia and research laboratories for scientists."

I think CRVL qualifies as "crowdsourceing".
Ted

 

[jimindenver]

Okay, my turn.

I would not suggest buying the only disposable item in your system if you are not ready to use them. There are always "new" batteries on craigslist that the seller bought with the intentions of building a system and never did. They might be a great buy IF the seller knew how to and did take care of them, otherwise they are usually good as cores.

Mixing a new battery with one that is a few months old and not abused may not be optimal but will likely be okay. Get them too far out of whack and the newer battery will constantly be trying to raise the voltage of the weaker battery until the newer is at the voltage of the older.

The first battery on my trailer was a 95 Ah Interstate grp 27 that I used and abused via testing my systems for six years yet had no problem running the trailer until I gave it away at the RTR. That person used it for months until he bought into the 6 volts are better concept, he killed those in short order. Right now he is trying to save the replacements for those 6 volts.

So proper battery management can make a horrible marine battery last years and the lack of can kill 6 volts in no time.

So what can a pair of marines do that a equal sized set of 6 volts not do? Try running a microwave or starting a engine on two 6 volts and you will see that they are not designed to do what we do with them. They are designed to be used in series with others so that the draw is limited and the resistance that the thick plates have is not a issue. Put four together and you can run a microwave.

Last time I was at Solar Bills in Quartzsite he showed me a stack of Trojans and a stack of Interstates saying they came from the same factory. I guess sometimes the name is worth more.

No matter the battery you chose, learn the proper care and feeding of it and stick to that. Amp counters are great IF you know the true capacity of your bank to start with. Otherwise you know what comes and goes but not what is in it. Meters are good if you use them, know how to use them and understand what the results mean and what to do. I have seen people using both that just knew something was up, had no idea what should be done yet are going to do something frying their bank in the process. It can be a mine field for beginners.

My Lifelines are now 7 years old. Bet me they will not last longer than most of the 6 volts I am seeing out here that are much newer.

So when you buy a battery understand the trade offs. A advantage that does not benefit you is no advantage at all. A disadvantage to someone else may not affect you at all. It all starts with you understanding what you need and what will provide it for you no matter if it will for others or not.

Last thing is the generalization of battery types is misleading. A telco AGM is more like a FLA in charge rate where as my Lifelines can take more than I can ever hope to produce. A true deep cycle has thicker plates and deeper wells to collect sludge but that CAN be had in a 12 volt version. You just have to know what you are picking from.

 

[highdesertranger]

I have my doubts about what they told you at Solar Bills. about 15 years ago we installed an electrical vault at the Trojan Battery Assembly plant in So Cal. we had free range of the plant, the only battery cases I saw where the Trojan purple and generic black for off brands. I saw no Interstate white/greens. now maybe something changed since then I don't know. highdesertranger

 

[Almost There]

Me too!

When I picked up my Trojan T105REs in Phoenix it was at a big battery warehouse. They  had every brand and size ever made in that place. There were skids of batteries lined up like little soldiers. And more skids up on racks in the back. Each skid with a different brand and size of battery!

I suspect that what Solar Bill was talking about was that they came from the same distributor, not the same manufacturer. Easy mistake to make or he was getting a much bigger % off the interstates and was trying to sway a customer...not saying he would try to mislead or anything...

 

[John61CT]

First off, Interstate is just a marketing / distribution co, no manufacturing.

Below is not 100% sure, some from NDAs.

They don't pay what Trojan would have to charge them to OEM, all Johnson Controls, ho hum.

Trojan makes all their FLA themselves, new AGM lines they're blowing smoke about are Chinese, which doesn't mean bad by definition, e.g. Full River makes Rolls Surrette's under crazy QA filtering.

 

[John61CT]

> That person used it for months until he bought into the 6 volts are better concept, he killed those in short order.

No one is saying all 6V are good.

And even a $4,000 bank of any lead chemistry can be murdered in a few months if mistreated badly enough.

Those Duracells made by Deka are at the very bottom of True Deep Cycle definition, but just about all that is available from mass consumer channels and excellent value for the money.

The 12V models from the better mfg are usually half the rated duty cycle of the lower-volt cells. Very few lines are as good, speciality items, e.g. ​Trojan J150 or T-1275.

Dino and Rolls also make a couple good 12V, 4D and 8D sizes, but need a very strong back.


Yes a Walmart or Autozone pseudo-deep cycle can be coddled to last 2-3 years but AH capacity will be way down and subject to unexpected sudden failure.

A true DC under the same treatment will last 3-5 times longer with better capacity at the end - all batts should be scrapped when SoH is 20-30% down

> Try running a microwave or starting a engine on two 6 volts and you will see that they are not designed to do what we do with them.

A single pair of those Duracell or better at 200+AH in good shape will have no trouble with any usage a mass market 12V can handle. Yes of course doubling that is even better with help from Peukert.

Deep cycle Lifelines are a top brand AGM by any measure, and their lower resistance will drive the high loads with less voltage drop. LFP a lot more so, really what big inverter loads need.

 

[everett ruess]

The only intelligent thing I can add is that,being from Colorado, when I read the title I assumed the OP wanted to start a pot "growing system". Electricity is key to these people 

 

[John61CT]

I thought by now doing personal quantities outdoors is fine?

 

[everett ruess]

I think it's fine, but there are security issues then. They seem to prefer indoors.

 

[jimindenver]

John, there is a reason four 6 volts are recommended for running a microwave. It is a trade off of the thick plates and the advantages you get from them. So if you have room for two batteries and two 6 volts will not do the job, it kind of limits your choices.

Yes the Lifelines are the top dog in AGM's but I would not suggest them and the really high price if something more reasonable can do the job. Even the perceived advantage of AGM's is a myth because you may not have to vent them for fumes but you do have to for heat. (really, you should vent them for fumes too)

As for Bill, who knows except he was told I had a better bank than what he had sitting there. He knew he wasn't going to sell me anything. Then again a lot has changed in the business world. Companies are doing things for the profit line and you see big brands slapping their name on crap. Anymore I wouldn't put it past any company.

The biggest problem out here is education and equipment. It isn't that a cheap marine battery only last three years. It isn't that people are not buying the respected types or brands of batteries. It is that they expect the charge controller they got with a kit or that offers no means of setting the parameters to do a job that it can not. Honestly if given a choice between a quality PWM that can be set verses and cheap MPPT that can not be set or needs a dongle that doesn't come with it, I would suggest the quality PWM controller. The MPPT will blow it away with available power but what good is it if it isn't at the voltages that will bring a bank up. What saved my grp 27 was a $100 MPPT with a display and the ability to set the voltage to what was needed and for as long as was needed.

The other thing is understanding how much power is needed and the relationship to how much power is produced. Generalizations like everyone will be fine if they buy this much solar, this many batteries, etc doesn't cut it. Neither does just run the generator for a while and let that 100 watt panel take over because it doesn't take much after the bulk cycle. These are easy answers when what is needed is a in depth discussion of needs and how to fill them. It is a lot of effort on both parties but it brings better results than "my brand is best".

So back to the OP. I still do not think you should buy batteries until you are ready but now is the time to have the discussion not of what I think of the batteries but why you think they will fill your needs. Have you researched to see what it takes to keep them up and are you willing to buy the gear that can do it. Come to think of it, what are your needs. How much power do you use or expect to use? Are these enough power to get you through the night or through a few cloudy days? I think it is possible that by the time you work out the answers that you will not need my opinion but I will be glad to help you along the way if you are willing to put in the effort.

 

[JohnnyK]

Oh my! I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by information overload. I deeply appreciate all of the diverse data and opinions of how to go. I'll reread it again (and probably again and again, *lol*) and go from there. I did go to my RV and pull the original, bring it home, 2 amp trickle charged it for 24 hr. and it's resting now. I'll check the voltage tomorrow. It's an Interstate marine/rv FLA. I didn't note the numbers on it and it's bedtime. I don't have a hydrometer, perhaps I can find one tomorrow. Thanks for all of the suggestions.