When You Need More Battery

Van Living Forum

Help Support Van Living Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

matrixdutch

Well-known member
Joined
May 4, 2014
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
Hey all,

I currently have a single 250 amp hour battery (and two 100 watt panels) and have realized that it's not enough.  I know that when setting up a solar system setup that one should not attempt to just add another battery.  It's preferable that if one has two batteries, that they should be from the same manufacturer and also bought at the same time.

Is there a work-around for me to increase my battery storage?
 
also 200 watts is a little short for a 250a/h battery. especially if you take it down 50%. highdesertranger
 
Also, can I ask why you assume it's a battery shortfall and not a solar panel shortfall?  How many amp hours do you use in the daytime, and how many at night?
 
A higher solar wattage to AH capacity  is certainly more desirable. Any charging source applied whenever possible is beneficial, but just enough on good sunny days, usually is not on any other day, and the poor batteries bet beaten into a overdepleted corner asking for  break and a few days of full charge to catch its breathe

Pretty easy to just add another battery on the Blue seas switch, but perhaps less so, to add more solar.

Plan on both, just choose your order of upgrade.

The Blue seas switch can still be useful on the next bank of house batteries.

According to MaineSail, flooded 4 d and 8d batteries are not actual deep cycle batteries.  If your '250AH'  battery is a flooded  8d, it is likely just a starting battery and severely capacity compromised from deep cycle duty.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/deep_cycle_battery

Note to those already familiar with this link, It was updated a few months ago.

Mainesail's knowledge and experience eclipse mine.

Final Thoughts:

Can 12V Group 24, 27, 31, 4D & 8D flooded batteries work? Sure, absolutely, and they do in the tens of thousands on boats every day. The question here is of value and are you getting what you paid for, or were sold, when you bought what you thought was a deep cycle battery...?

When a 12V flooded marine battery is sold for more money and with half the rated lab cycles my answer is a flat out no.


When purchasing house bank deep cycling batteries always consider cycle life. This is the part most everyone buying batteries forgets or entirely leaves out of the decision making process. The battery buying process is not just about Amp Hours and $$$. It is Ah's, $$$ and cycle life when you are buying deep cycle batteries. 


By labeling "pseudo" batteries as deep cycle the battery maker wins because you buy more batteries in a shorter period of time. Do your home work and don't get bitten by the marketing mumbo-jumbo...
 
highdesertranger said:
also 200 watts is a little short for a 250a/h battery.  especially if you take it down 50%.  highdesertranger

Yeah, definitely.  I learned the hard way.   :(
 
that is one bear of a battery. 8d. 154 pounds in one lift. AGM or Gel. You could only build a separate house bank and use one at a time to prevent worst battery syndrome. To keep charging parameters the same, use agm or gel battery for the side system. Then you can switch between then as posted by others.
My 230 amp hour wet cell are about 124 pounds, but divided into two 62 pound six volt batteries. :)
 
These UPG batteries are not very impressive in my opinion.


Besides being sealed, the biggest advantage of AGM is the ability to accept high recharge currents, yet these UPG batteries always list a maximum initial current of 30% or less of battery capacity, and their internal resistance is 2x that of higher quality AGM.

They do not have the very low self discharge rates, and are barely any better than flooded batteries in this regard.

All AGMs really dislike partial state of charge cycling and walk down in apparent capacity each cycle where they do not get back to a true 100%.  The better AGMS can be returned to their original capacity before too much of a beating occurs, with an extended absorption charge cycle, but these lesser AGMS seem to have to kiss that capacity goodbye.

Initial price is always a factor, but does not mean the battery is a good value.

Really with AGMs, to keep them somewhat happy in regular deep cycle usage, they need well more than a 2 to one  Solar wattage to AH ratio.  Otherwise one needs to be able to plug in and feed them from their most depleted state at near that 30% charge rate every so many cycles with about 15 being the maximum before the lead sulfate hardens to the point where it cannot ever be redissolved into the electrolyte.

When the AGMs do not get this, then recharging to apparent full, Which means holding absorption voltage until the amperage tapers to 0.5% of capacity, takes longer and longer.  And if they do not get this longer and longer, the capacity shrinks faster and faster.

Far too often, the price and limited gassing potential of AGMS equate them in the minds of the buyers, with super battery status, but reality is, in daily deep cycling, they need higher amp recharges and recharges to full more often than their flooded counterparts, or they lose capacity at a faster rate.

When the average user notices this capacity loss, the battery capacity is already likely in steep decline, and accelerating, with reversal basically impossible, and even a levelling off of capacity decline from that point requires more charging sources. Charging sources which if present from cycle one, would have prevented the premature capacity loss.

So if getting an Expensive AGM, even a bargain AGM, the charging sources should be larger. More Solar, fatter cable to alternator and a plug in charger that approaches the 30% charge rate for those times one can plug into the grid to recharge, or fire up the generator.

These things all cost more upfront, but will have the system be much more reliable for much longer, and will pay for itself in less stress to owner and le$$ battery replacements.

The UPG 8d battery in this thread might benefit greatly from an extended absorption charge.  NExt time it is depleted, if one can apply 75 amps until 14.9v is reached, and then hold 14.9v until amps taper to ~ 2.5 amps, it is likely the battery capacity will be restored some percentage. It could take 2 hours before 75 amps gets this battery to 14.9v, and another 10 hours before amps taper to ~2.5 amps. It could take 20 hours. If the battery were new, it would take 3.5 to 4 hours.

This 75 amps applied regular from the most depleted state, every 10 to 15  deep cycles would very much slow the capacity loss of the battery, likely doubling the total cycles the battery is able to deliver before capacity loss becomes  apparent to average owner. 

The High amp recharge also reduces the time it takes on the next recharge cycle for amps to taper to X amount at 14.X volts.  Basically it will take less time to fully recharge the battery, and a fully recharged battery is a happy battery that can deliver its capacity for much longer and many more total cycles.

So what is acceptable to the owner is highly variable.  How far they are willing to go to get the most cycles per $$ is also variable, but some minimums should be met.

Hail mary attempts at restoring capacity, well the equipment required for them, if regularly applied from cycle one, would largely prevent the issue from occurring in the first place.

Everything is a trade off and a compromise.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with the 2 to 1 or better even for a flooded jar. That can really limit your bank without a huge roof. I'm closer to 1.5 to 1 with 1000w total and 675 Ah. It works even with just the 750w main system but only because my system is designed to be a daytime generator and I use so little power at night that it doesn't burn off the over charge. The bank does provide for short term high amp loads like the microwave but it's real job is to be there in that week of bad weather.
 
jimindenver said:
I wholeheartedly agree with the 2 to 1 or better even for a flooded jar. That can really limit your bank without a huge roof. I'm closer to 1.5 to 1 with 1000w total and 675 Ah. It works even with just the 750w main system but only because my system is designed to be a daytime generator and I use so little power at night that it doesn't burn off the over charge. The bank does provide for short term high amp loads like the microwave but it's real job is to be there in that week of bad weather.

So then, would it be fair to say that these are some rules of thumb for sizing?:

  • 2 to 1 ratio - solar panel total watts to rated/labeled total battery Ah
  • 4 to 1 ratio - solar panel total watts to usable total battery Ah (50% discharge)

If those are correct, then it suggests not just a ratio, but a design sequence.  Instead of doing what seems normal -- beginning with the biggest battery you can afford or fit -- a buyer should first figure out what amount of solar panel watts he/she can afford and can fit on the vehicle.  That watt number would determine the battery size.  Does that make sense?

If anyone knows of such rules of thumb listed in another thread, hopefully in one place vs. spread out, please say where.

Thanks,

Vagabound
 
Vagabound

Solar is part of a system that balances your needs, conservation when possible, battery to cover you when the sun doesn't play nice and a back up means of charging for when the sun doesn't play nice for too long. OR You can put as much panel on the roof as you can, as much battery in the box as you can and learn to live with it. Every one has their view of balance and it only has to be good for them.

I like 2-1 because it can get the battery to snap to attention. 1-1 barely raises the voltage of a 8-D at 50%, it's just painfully slow. My big bank will never see 50% but if it did it would take my full system a good long summers day to bring it back up to full charge. That system puts out 60 amps total vs the roughly 350 Ah's it is trying to replace.
 
Most people have smaller systems and smaller needs, I still think 1 to 1 works for most people if you use good power management and are reasonably frugal. I would give thought to 2 to 1 but with nothing less than a pair of golf carts as the minimum battery for most people.

3 to 2 (300 watts to 200 ah of lead acid is) probably ideal for the average vandweller.

I have two systems, 200 watts to 200 ah and it is has performed perfectly for 5 years now. The other is 380 to 400 ah, I am 100% satisfied with it as well.

I think 4 to 1 is totally unwise and would not recommend that to anyone.
Bob
 
akrvbob said:
...
I would give thought to 2 to 1 but with  nothing less than a pair of golf carts as the minimum battery for most people.

- and -

I think 4 to 1 is totally  unwise and would not recommend that to anyone.

If you're referring to my post above about 'rules of thumb', your two statements are actually equal (so, either both good, or both not good).  

My 4 to 1 wasn't "panel to stated battery capacity".  It was "panel to useful capacity" (50% of stated).  Probably best if I/we stick with stated capacity so as not to muddy the water (2 to 1 vs. 4 to 1 version).

Vagabound
 
Top