What is best battery power pack?

[mnpaul]

[size=small]This was a question on Amazon about Goal Zero's Lithium Yeti batteries(the question seemed kinda confusing but Goal Zero answered)[/size]
[size=small]"[font=Arial, Helvetica, Helvetica, sans-serif]How does the yeti handle low battery? damage the batteries by leaving them hooked up to a load? output voltage at low bat.?max # charge cycles?"[/font][/size]

[size=small]The Goal Zero Yeti 1400 Lithium is equipped with battery protection. Once the battery is "dead" the unit will make a chirping noise to remind you to recharge. This will continue for roughly six months before any damage to the battery occurs. Shelf life from full charge to a point where damage may occur is roughly eighteen months. The optimal storage for the battery is to charge to 80%, let drain to 20% and repeat. The second best option is to maintain a constant charge on the battery via an AC outlet or solar trickle charger. The Yeti 1400 has roughly 500 empty to full charging cycles before the battery capacity drops to 80% (still very usable well beyond the initial 500 cycles). The outlet ports vary. AC outlets are 120 volts, USB are 5 volts and there is a 12 volt outlet as well. These are regulated ports so the voltage will remain consistent from full to empty. Once the unit can no longer sustain the voltage of the port in use it will turn off and require recharging. see less 

By Goal Zero MANUFACTURER  on June 14, 2017[/size]

Wow, only 500 cycles b4 20% decline for such an expensive battery doesn't seem great.  Another person asked if they had replacement batteries once the original died: 
There is currently no lithium replacement option at this time but we were advised that there may be one in the future. If you have any other questions you can reach us at 877-548-3387. 
By Earthtech Products SELLER  on April 24, 2017

 

[IGBT]

The manual does say there is a replacement battery available, at least for the 1000 watt version from Costco.  It is probably very expensive though.

They are using Lithium Manganese technology so they should get more than 500 cycles.

Their version that uses a AGM battery also says 500 cycles.  I wonder if they just use that figure to CYA as it is probably more cycles than someone would undertake during the 2 year warranty period.

Also, 500 cycles at at an average of two cycles per week is five years which is plenty for me and probably more than I will use this in the sailboat or while camping/working at remote location or just using it in the truck.

Like I mentioned, the big thing for me is we can use it to recharge our sailboat's main battery without having to have a generator running for several hours. I did this on the trip we just did in the San Juan Islands of Puget sound. We sailed for three days, anchored out, I fully charged the sailboat battery with the Goal Zero, then we took the Goal Zero Yeti with us into a hotel and charged it back up and I used it again a couple of days later while at anchor to recharge the sailboat battery again. I have a little bit of solar on the sailboat but it is not a large boat and the sails shade the panel constantly. Compared to the size of the Honda EU2000i we have, the Goal Zero yeti is small, clean and you can leave it running inside the berth while you sleep.

 

[John61CT]

Yes if you know the inverter is what you need, would have bought anyway, AND it is indeed from a quality maker,

then yes becomes better value.

The cycle life is a worry though, market price these days on a decent 12V 100AH LFP that can be made to last 10x longer is $400-600.

Would be great if you could custom-order the chemistry, inverter and charger specs.

I still would prefer a Firefly G31 in an ArkPak 730, same 80% DoD and withstands PSOC, but it is heavier, both inverter and charger too puny.

 

[IGBT]

Yes if you know the inverter is what you need, would have bought anyway, AND it is indeed from a quality maker,

then yes becomes better value.

The cycle life is a worry though, market price these days on a decent 12V 100AH LFP that can be made to last 10x longer is $400-600.

Would be great if you could custom-order the chemistry, inverter and charger specs.

I still would prefer a Firefly G31 in an ArkPak 730, same 80% DoD and withstands PSOC, but it is heavier, both inverter and charger too puny.

See, people say these things but all I hear is crickets when I ask specifics like warranty, sources, return policy.

Where can I go tomorrow to buy a $400 12V 100AH LFP battery that has a two year warranty and can be returned locally with no hassle?  Also the battery would need to be in a case with a BMS.

Yeah, crickets...

 

[RVTravel]

IGBT, thanks for the info on your lithium battery. Those lead acid guys will be on board soon ; ).

 

[Scott7022]

IGBT.
I heard Jimmy the cricket whisper.....Battle Born 100ah, 39 pounds, made in the good ol USA, 3 year warranty, 300,000 amp hours expected lifecycle. One of the most robust battery management systems for an internally mounted BMS. All in a group 31 sized case. Ah sorry it is 899 but I have seen them on sale for 8 and change. You get what you pay for. https://battlebornbatteries.com

No reason this couldn't be adapted to an ark pack or goal zero. Charge profile on the battery charger might have to be changed but perhaps not? Call and ask. I talked with them from way over here before I made my purchase with much harder questions. Like:
Ok My custom Mechman alternators are pounding almost 350 amps at 14.5 volts (externally regulated and sent down 3 OO gauge cable) will a bank of six handle that charging capacity?

 

[IGBT]

$899 is not $400

$899 is nearing the price of the whole goal zero thing, which does include a 1500 watt inverter, about the same size as the inverter in a EU2000i.

I want the $400 made in America lithium battery with 2 year warranty that I can pick up at Walmart, Autozone or Costco.

 

[John61CT]

Yes the Battle Born G31 slides into ArkPak 730 perfectly.

The charger may not be current-limited enough for LFPs high CAR.

 

[John61CT]

Where can I go tomorrow to buy a $400 12V 100AH LFP battery that has a two year warranty and can be returned locally with no hassle?

You are correct, if such warranty issues are worth paying more to you that's the way you should go.

Most 12V LFP are drop-ins, internal BMS, which I hate.

I prefer bare prismatic cells, and would not pay more than 10% extra for a local warranty.

I definitely don't want a BMS that does any kind of balancing, and prefer the other protections be off the shelf and non-proprietary.

But that's going a bit off-topic to discuss LFP specifics.

 

[IGBT]

$899 is not $400

$899 is nearing the price of the whole goal zero thing, which does include a 1500 watt inverter, about the same size as the inverter in a EU2000i.

I want the $400 made in America lithium battery with 2 year warranty that I can pick up at Walmart, Autozone or Costco.


Edit:  I am having a hard time trusting the battleborn site already because they state their battery has a lifetime capacity of 300,000 amp hours while they give a capacity of 30,000 amp hours for the lead acid (which they say costs $450).  30,000 amp hours at 100 amp hour cycle is 300 cycles.

For $450 you can get a Lifeline AGM which I know from experience and the manufacturer has data sheets which show 1000 cycles at 50% DoD.

So they are straight up lying or Lifeline is lying.   Lifeline has been in business way longer and has many many users.

 

[John61CT]

I want the $400 made in America lithium battery with 2 year warranty that I can pick up at Walmart, Autozone or Costco.

Nobody said that was available.

I have seen many $5000+ LFP installs, and never heard of anyone even considering American made, why would that be important?

Good quality bare prismatic cells, no BMS, no local warranty but top quality, 2000+ cycles in real life if treated well.

I doubt the Yeti give a long life, and would never buy a unit over $100 where the replacement cells weren't readily available.

Not saying they're not good value for other people, just not for me.

 

[IGBT]

Nobody said that was available.

I have seen many $5000+ LFP installs, and never heard of anyone even considering American made, why would that be important?

Good quality bare prismatic cells, no BMS, no local warranty but top quality, 2000+ cycles in real life if treated well.

I doubt the Yeti give a long life, and would never buy a unit over $100 where the replacement cells weren't readily available.

Not saying they're not good value for other people, just not for me.

I just think it is not fair to say something is not a reasonable cost because you can get similar for $400 and then backpedal and say "well that is for bare cells not including duct tape, wire, fire extinguisher, Chinese translator, etc."

I think the Yeti will give more life than 500 cycles but they are being conservative while the Chinese LFP manufacturers state 2000+ cycles with no real threat of consequence if their product does not actually deliver that.

Also I seem to remember the LFP cannot deliver very high current although maybe it can do 1C which would be enough for most situations, just not enough to give the 1500 watt inverter in the Yeti its 3000 watt surge capacity.

 

[John61CT]

No, LFP has much higher charge and discharge capacities than lead. Some claim a spec only 1-2C (200A for a 100AH batt, but in real life many EV users report 5+C without problems.

And no, the lifetime cycles with quality LFP is actually turning out to be **much longer** in real life than the manufacturers claim for House bank usage, as long as "properly cared for", you avoid the SoC shoulders both top and bottom.

And that means **not** using their charging equipment or specs. I'd be curious what the Yeti charger voltage setpoint is, likely over 14V, which is not conducive to max longevity, if the Yeti batt is actually vanilla LFP though, could be another lithium-ion chemistry?

We're talking likely 15-20 years, to the point yes higher cost up front but lowest per-cycle cost.

And get away from thinking "cheap Chinese", all the top LFP vendors are there, including for military applications worldwide, in fact I think it's likely they **all** are, you wouldn't try looking for a made-in-usa smartphone would you?

 

[IGBT]

No, LFP has much higher charge and discharge capacities than lead. Some claim a spec only 1-2C (200A for a 100AH batt, but in real life many EV users report 5+C without problems.

And no, the lifetime cycles with quality LFP is actually turning out to be **much longer** in real life than the manufacturers claim for House bank usage, as long as "properly cared for", you avoid the SoC shoulders both top and bottom.

And that means **not** using their charging equipment or specs. I'd be curious what the Yeti charger voltage setpoint is, likely over 14V, which is not conducive to max longevity, if the Yeti batt is actually vanilla LFP though, could be another lithium-ion chemistry?

We're talking likely 15-20 years, to the point yes higher cost up front but lowest per-cycle cost.

And get away from thinking "cheap Chinese", all the top LFP vendors are there, including for military applications worldwide, in fact I think it's likely they **all** are, you wouldn't try looking for a made-in-usa smartphone would you?

But all of the Lithium battery comparisons try to say they are so much better than lead because you get the full AH rating as usable capacity where in lead you only drain 50%.   If this is true, then you would blow through both SoC shoulders top and bottom to get 100AH out of a 100AH lithium and compare it to a 200AH lead acid.

 

[Scott7022]

Part of the reason you can't find a Lithium system or battery for 400 dollars as they The big four or five manufactures were price fixing. They were accused, found guilty in court and paid the fine. Didn't hurt them much as sailors and others on the bleeding edge of this tech were paying the prices even if they had to wait months for products. Not a conspiracy theory, but a fact https://www.law360.com/articles/870246/lg-chem-to-pay-39m-to-settle-battery-price-fixing-claims. So when companies try to abuse customers I tend to not supply them with anymore money. My choice, won't affect the company, they probably spend more on staples but it was part of my decision.

 

[frater secessus]

But all of the Lithium battery comparisons try to say they are so much better than lead because you get the full AH rating as usable capacity where in lead you only drain 50%.   If this is true, then you would blow through both SoC shoulders top and bottom to get 100AH out of a 100AH lithium and compare it to a 200AH lead acid.

All of the Lithium battery comparisons?  The most aggressive claim on the first page of google hits is that LFP has "about twice" the capacity of AGM.  I would argue that this is not equivalent to recommending 100% DoD for LFP.  For longest life the sources I've read suggest working with the middle 80% of capacity.  Maybe 90% for the attentive.

LFP are typically underrated so pulling out even 100% of the nominal (not actual) capacity after testing does not necessarily require blowing through the shoulders.

 

[frater secessus]

Also I seem to remember the LFP cannot deliver very high current although maybe it can do 1C which would be enough for most situations, just not enough to give the 1500 watt inverter in the Yeti its 3000 watt surge capacity.

Lithium batteries (including LFP) have massive current throughput, enough to smoke alternators and break belts. 

Having said that, many folks who run "barefoot" (no BMS) LFP do keep dis/charging under 1C.  This is called "Fractional C" use, intended to keep cells from getting out of balance in the absence of a BMS.

 

[John61CT]

But all of the Lithium battery comparisons try to say they are so much better than lead because you get the full AH rating as usable capacity where in lead you only drain 50%.   If this is true, then you would blow through both SoC shoulders top and bottom to get 100AH out of a 100AH lithium and compare it to a 200AH lead acid.

From 5-10% at the bottom, to 95% at the top is safe. much better than lead, and lots lighter, less bulky to start with.

The rare earth materials remain rare, and demand will be skyrocketing, so even as worldwide production ramps up, don't expect pricing to come down much on bare cells.

Those overpaying for the bespoke BMS systems (7x the price of quality lead banks) will benefit though.

 

[John61CT]

All of the Lithium battery comparisons?  The most aggressive claim on the first page of google hits is that LFP has "about twice" the capacity of AGM.  I would argue that this is not equivalent to recommending 100% DoD for LFP.  For longest life the sources I've read suggest working with the middle 80% of capacity.  Maybe 90% for the attentive.

LFP are typically underrated so pulling out even 100% of the nominal (not actual) capacity after testing does not necessarily require blowing through the shoulders.

all depends on where YOU set the shoulders.

BMS vendors invariably push the limits, also charge too high a voltage.

Vendors don't want banks to last twenty years.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

This has been and continues to be hashed out in a massive thread on Crusers Forum by people who have way more money and technical knowledge that most of us:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...or-those-using-them-as-house-banks-65069.html

And some testing and comments by MaineSail:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats&page=1

 . . .  For longest life the sources I've read suggest working with the middle 80% of capacity.  Maybe 90% for the attentive.

LFP are typically underrated so pulling out even 100% of the nominal (not actual) capacity after testing does not necessarily require blowing through the shoulders.

Sources I have read claim longest life for the smallest discharge cycles. "[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cycling in mid-state-of-charge would have best longevity."[/font]
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries 

Another good comparison between LA and LiFePO4:
http://www.psebatteries.com/media/datasheet/lithium-ferro-phosphate-batteries-vs-vrla-batteries.pdf

I continue to follow this with interest and hope that by the time my FLA batteries die all of this will be sorted out.

 -- Spiff