What’s causing these van /trailer fires?

[Rocky Road]

CiCi’s stepvan at Jamie’s van build just burned up and Randy the Mobile Traveler’s trailer burned up while on the road in Wyoming. No cause determined yet for CiCi’s fire but she didn’t have solar. Randy blamed his solar installer for his fire but who knows. Any thoughts?

 

[bullfrog]

In vehicles There are several areas that can get hot or create sparks. Exhaust systems especially ones that leak or with convertors can catch tall grass, trash blown up off the road, leaking oil or fuel or hot embers of carbon or unburnt fuel emitted out the rear. Brake systems especially on overloaded vehicles can and will become so hot they glow. Electrical systems especially ones added on with improper fusing can short or get hot enough to ignite if the wrong gauge wire has been used. With RVs you additionally have propane stoves and heaters, solar, generators and especially refrigerators which creat a lot of heat. When I was in service they gave us a fire starter kit to put in the vehicles for emergencies if we became stranded. I just laughed and told them I did think I would have any problems starting a fire with somebody else's broken down vehicle if I was about to freeze to death. In fact I told them I more likely would need a good shovel in order to put out the fire!

 

[highdesertranger]

vehicle fires are pretty common they happen everyday. like bullfrog pointed out there are many causes for the fires, most have nothing to do with solar or conversions. however in RV's the 3 way refrigerators are a common source for fire to start. highdesertranger

 

[crofter]

FEMA sez:  https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v19i2.pdf

"Approximately one in eiIght fires responded to by fire departments across the nation is a highway vehicle fire. This does not include the tens of thousands of fire department responses to highway vehicle accident sites. ĵ Unintentional action (38 percent) was the leading cause of highway vehicle fires. ĵ Eighty-three percent of highway vehicle fires occurred in passenger vehicles. ĵ Sixty-two percent of highway vehicle fires and 36 percent of fatal highway vehicle fires originated in the engine, running gear or wheel area of the vehicle. ĵ Mechanical failure was the leading factor contributing to the ignition of highway vehicle fires (45 percent). ĵ Insulation around electrical wiring (29 percent) and flammable liquids in the engine area (18 percent) were the most common items first ignited in highway vehicle fires. ĵ Sixty percent of fatal vehicle fires were the result of a collision."

For an RV you can add propane systems and 12v electrical systems as possible sources of ignition.
https://www.nps.gov/articles/p52-rv-fire-safety-101.htm

With a self made dwelling, you do have the opportunity to do it right, and not cut corners on materials or design. However, many of us just get on the road with what we have, and may have cut a few corners that later create an unsafe condition in our dwelling.  ~crofter

 

[Gypsy Freedom]

as previously stated, lots of reasons for things to catch on fire in autos and RVs.

now throw in the DIY van dweller and many of the "conversions" out there are veritable death traps

the vast majority of new DIY people are jumping on a project cabable of burning their rig to the ground with little or no knowledge/experience other than what they heard on youtube or around a campfire or on a forum.

one example i see/hear/read all the time is about charging from an alternator. 90+% of the time the question gets answered with "just use a constant duty solenoid" next thing you know you have someone hooking the house bank to the starter bank with undersized wire, bad connections, no chafe protection and no fuses.

yes i said fuses as in plural.

a reasonable installation of this kind would consist of reasonably heavy gauge cable rated for the current one expects to be charging. then there MUST be a minimum of 2 fuses sized to protect the weakest of 3 links. look at the max rating of the alternator, the max continuous load rating of the solenoid and the max current carrying capacity of the cable based on how long it is. chose the fuse size that is same size or smaller than the lowest rated of these three. then install one each as close as is feasible to EACH battery. you also need to be certain the wire that activate the solenoid when the engine is on is fused properly. if you tapped into a 20 amp circuit but used 14 or 16 awg wire, you are not protected. these size wires need smaller fuses or could cause a fire if they happen to get shorted.

all the connections need to have properly made crimps with appropriate insulation.  this goes for every connection you ever make on your rig. bad crimps/connections can and do cause more over heat situations that can lead to fire than you can imagine. and a proper sized fuse will NOT save you.  (SIDE STORY---- a few years ago at a well attended van dweller gathering i was asked if i could help as someones compressor fridge was not working as good as they thought it should. upon a cursory inspection i noticed a haphazard piece of electrical tape covering what looked to be a crimped terminal. when i asked they said they had done that because it got hot and had started to melt the insulation of the terminal/connector. under the tape i found a distorted insulator on a poorly sized and crimped terminal. i didnt have tools with me and was just there briefly so i instructed them to disconnect the unit till they could make repairs. they had food in the fridge and said that it had been like that for a while and left it running but promised to make repairs as soon as they could get the to the tools and parts. so far as i know, they did get that repaired. but if there was enough heat generated (with about 3.5 amps of current for the fridge) to melt the insulator in open air. imagine if inadvertently a dry towel had been set down on this and insulted it so the heat could not dissipate in the air. the temp of the bad connection could have easily risen to the ignition point of the dry towel. end result, rig goes up in flames, quite possibly when no one is there to do anything about it)

then we need to look at chafe protection, most of these charge off alternator installations will have cable routed through holes in body work and running through engine compartments and along frames or body sections. these wires need to be secured so they do not rub back and forth on something hard due to bounce or jiggle while rig is in motion. then anywhere that the wire makes hard contact or comes close to a sharp or thin edge like where it goes through a drilled hole in the frame or body some sort of physical barrier to wear needs to be used so the wires insulation does not become compromised leading to a short

look at all the places a diy project can easily miss something critical and it is no wonder with thousands of diy projects going on out there we have a few devastating disasters. and i just went over most of the basics. i didnt even get into making sure you used the right type of wire with insulation rated for the exposure it will have. wires in engine compartments need a higher heat rating. wires exposed to water, like under a rig need to be rated for such, old lamp cord from your house probably wont be rated for that. where does that wire/cable run? does it come close to anything that might impact it? i have seen power wires lying directly on top of catalytic converters. and the customer wondered why their aftermarket rear flood lights kept popping the fuse...

the same type of problems arise all the time, not just with electrical, but with propane lines, tapping into gas/diesel lines or modifying suspension systems

this is one reason folks like HDR, myself and others that have worked in these fields and seen the insanity and carnage first hand often sound like pricks when chastising or pointing out possible problems. it is not because we want to insult or chase off people from doing it. it is that we have done this enough to see the devastation when things go south and we care enough to try and prevent others from suffering the same fate.

 

[crofter]

Are the walls fireproof? I have always wondered about all the reflectix I use in the van.

https://www.reflectixinc.com/about-reflectix/frequently-asked-questions/


Their site lists the following under Fire Rating:
"Reflectix® has a Class A/Class 1 Fire Rating on our Reflective/Bubble Insulation. It also meets all fire and smoke safety requirements of federal, state and local building codes (Satisfies UL 723, NFPA 255 and UBC 42-1)."

to further translate, thank you Google:

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]"A [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]Class 1[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif], or [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]Class[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] A, [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]fire rating[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] means that the building material is highly resistant to [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]fire[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] and does not spread flames quickly. In the flame-spread [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]rating[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] test, a score of 0 to 25 constitutes a [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]Class 1 rating[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]. ... Other [/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]Class 1[/font][font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif] building materials include brick, tile and cement."[/font]

[font=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]So I guess Reflectix on the walls is not a fire hazard.  Mounting a couple fire extinguishers would be good too, one in the cab and one in the house by the stove.   ~crofter[/font]

 

[Qxxx]

Randy's TT was very old, 1969 or so, so no telling what might have worn out over 50 years. Wires scraping on stuff and the insulation worn off? That happened to me years ago with my first van. Also, as HDR mentioned, refrigerators in those rigs have both propane and electrics, and Randy was always going down nasty rocky BLM roads, which would cause a lot of vibrations. He recently had a couple of cracks in the frame of his TT, no doubt related to off highway bumping.

Seems to me, compressor mounting might be the weakest link. Sounds like a good idea to have a frig shock-mounted if ever contemplating going off the asphalt.

The fire at the van build was in a converted bus, and they were apparently just getting it fitted out ... ready to install solar at the build. Maybe things weren't mounted in a permanent way as yet. Plus the gal had apparently just driven 10 miles or so out bumpy Shea Road. BlueVanDan has a good look.


Likewise, the road to Scaddan Wash where RTR has been held in the past is just terrible. It's a wonder there aren't more problems given the places people are taking their rigs.

 

[1shemp]

People need to slow down on rough roads.Sometimes that's hard for me to do when I'm thinking about that first cold beer in camp.

 

[highdesertranger]

I have to agree with shemp. just because you CAN drive 60mph on an improved gravel road doesn't mean you SHOULD. equipment is always happier if you don't push it to its limit. highdesertranger

 

[Qxxx]

You'd think that slowing down on rough roads would be obvious, wouldn't ya.

Randy is a smart guy. I can't see him doing 60 MPH on the roads he would have pulled that old 1969 TT along.

 

[user 423]

Last year in Sierra Vista a young couple lost their 80's moho to a fire. It was a carbed engine and the previous owner had replaced the steel gas line to the carb with rubber. You can have a leak with either but it's more likely with a cobbed up rubber line.

 

[Qxxx]

In Randy's case, his ancient TT that he was towing went up in flames for unknown reasons. He was traveling on the highway and it just ignited. He barely got the pickup disconnected in time or he'd have lost that too. The cause was apparently something other than the propane tank per se, because that didn't ignite for quite a while after the fire started. Who knows what kludges people put into 50 YO rigs.

With the gal's bus this week, who knows?

 

[Cammalu]

By the way, there is a go fund me for Cici to help her get back on her feet. She’s in a borrowed tent and her clothes and everything went up in smoke. I can’t find where I donated to anymore but if someone has the link perhaps they could post it here. Every little bit helps.

 

[ByeBye]

By the way, there is a go fund me for Cici to help her get back on her feet. She’s in a borrowed tent and her clothes and everything went up in smoke. I can’t find where I donated to anymore but if someone has the link perhaps they could post it here. Every little bit helps.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/getting-...edium=copy_link&utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet

$7,331 raised
The organizer has currently disabled new donations to this fundraiser.

 

[Qxxx]

Too bad this thread is in the wrong section. Should be in Safety on the Road.

 

[highdesertranger]

your right I moved it. highdesertranger

 

[jacqueg]

The frustrating thing to me is that this thread provides no answers, just a feeling that my vehicle is liable to commit suicide by fire with little warning.

Here I am, with very basic mechanical knowledge, dependent on pro mechanics, driving a 20-year-old van. Exactly what should I be looking for/asking about in terms of helping my van keep a healthy mental attitude about life?

 

[Qxxx]

The frustrating thing to me is that this thread provides no answers, just a feeling that my vehicle is liable to commit suicide by fire with little warning.

In post #5, Gypsy gave a lot of good advice on how the innards of your van should be built out for safety reasons. Start by doing a thorough look through at all the systems, electrical and propane. And get a fire extinquisher, CO and smoke detectors.

 

[Gypsy Freedom]

as broke van dwelles trying to live in 20(+) year old rigs one of the best things i can recommend is going back to school. this is a DIY life, most of us can not afford to pay someone for every little thing. we need to become self sufficient and learn how to care for our rigs and equipment.

most local colleges and and often high schools will have "adult" programs where you can take a class on basic auto mech, or basic electrical and or electronics (not the same) these are often quite cheap and may be 1 or 2 nights a week. of course you have to be in the same area to go to the same place for the duration of the course. but learning the basics and fundamentals can be much easier in a class room setting with a live instructor t assist and where they provide the tools and equipment. you can of course do the google and youtube thing, but unfortunately there is a lot of bad info or missleading info out there and with out basic knowledge and some skills you may have no way of knowing if what you are learnng is right or even safe. once you have the basics, then learning from youtube and the internet becomes much easier.

if you cant take a course, then try to aquire the text book for some basic courses and work through those. at least, for the most part if a text book is being used in a formal education course, the info will be reasonably accurate. much better than a lot of what you stumble upon the internet

 

[Qxxx]

Following up on what crofter wrote in post #4, I did some more looking.

First, that nps site she linked indicates 20,000 RV fires per year. Out of 8 million RVS, that means 1 in 400 will burn on average. So if 5,000 people come to RTR, then the statistics indicates 12 will possibly burn, this year.

Search found the following site, albeit 10 yo data.
https://www.arprv.com/rv-fire-cause-and-prevention.php
"It is reported that the number two cause of a fire is the RV refrigerator[2]. The number one cause of fire is reported to be within the RV engine compartment, often in the electrical system".

#1: engine compartment, especially[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] electrical system.[/font]
#2: frig compartment.

That site was selling a frig leveler of some sort, apparently because the older frigs (at least) needed to be level for safe operation. Hopefully the problem has been addressed over the years. However, that page also has a number of guidelines indicating what to stress regarding safety analysis, and probably especially applicable to older RVs.

There is a reference to the original Chris Bloom report, "Refrigerator fires05", but I couldn't seem get a direct link with my browser (duh).
https://www.google.com/search?q=RV+Refrigerator+Compartment+Fires,+Chris+Bloom,+2006

My general feeling is that refrigerators need to be shock-mounted, especially if the RVs are driven on bumpy BLM roads, and electrical wires should be tied down to prevent flapping around.