Wash water/showering using pressurised water

[XERTYX]

I've been away from the forum for a while but the wheels in my mind continue turning... (although squeaky and in need of grease at times)

*Note* If there is a better placement for this thread that I have overlooked mods please move it to the appropriate secrion.

I've been pondering this for some time. Most folks that want running water seem to only think about using water pumps.... although for showering some use a weed sprayer adapted to a standard sink hand sprayer... I have built one of those as well..

What about a fresh water tank that is pressurized with air rather than a vented tank that requires a pump?

The first issue that comes to mind besides the complexity and space would be that plastic tanks (besides weed sprayers) arent designed to hold pressure to the best of my knowledge.

I have thought of using a couple of daisy chained weed sprayers but at 2 gallons per sprayer and if I remember correctly roughly $12 each not including the hardware this could quickly become a costly endeavor. 

Also I have yet to find an reference for the maximum psi for my OR any other comparable weed sprayer on the market. Last thing I want is to wake up to an explosion in the middle of the night and water everywhere. 

Then it hit me. Many years ago I got into home brewing and bought a few "cornelius" kegs for home brew beer. I have the kegs and related equipment as well as nearly a full tank of Co2 gas laying around. So why not try and adapt these to water storage and pressurize them for off grid usage.

*Disclaimer* Pressurized Carbon Dioxide gas and related equipment can be hazardous. A pressurized container CAN explode under the right OR wrong circumstances and all safety precautions should be observed. If you have any doubts as to your own safety DO NOT ATTEMPT to replicate this method. It is also of notable mention that Carbon Dioxide Gas especially in an enclosed environment WILL displace oxygen. </disclaimer>

Ok legal mumbo jumbo aside. My theorem is to take a clean Cornelius keg and pressurize it with Co2 at first because I have it available, but later to use a 12V air compressor adapted to the kegs to dispense water so that I have a constant PSI of water. I also plan to later connect this setup to an "instant" propane hot water heater for the purpose of showering. 

I would need a good pressure regulator, an air storage tank, and compressor, as well as accompanying hardware. The compressor I found is 12v and has an automatic shut off much as well as storage tank like a DIY type 120v air compressor (its marketed for tractor trailer air horns). I'd need to adapt it to the ball lock disconnects on the kegs which shouldn't be an issue.

My chief concerns are during testing using Co2 the water will become carbonated which may affect its ability to clean the body of soap/dirt. Also if successful once I begin using compressed air oil from the compressor could get into the water which I could cut down on using a moisture trap much like youd find on an air brush/paint sprayer. As well as introducing oxygen into the tank could promote the growth of bateria.

Advantages would be that I already have the bulk of the expensive equipment and as the kegs are stainless steel they could be removed periodically from the system and sanitized.

I think I've covered the basics of my idea. Thoughts? Concerns? Advice? References?  Please comment.

 

[highdesertranger]

first off welcome back. that's the way they used to do RV's they used pressurized tanks. but there are several issues as to why they went away from that and to water pump.

the primary reason is cost. a non pressure tank and water pump is pretty cheap.
second is simplicity a non pressurized tank and water pump is pretty straight forward easy to fix and simple to understand.

let me explain.
if you pressurize the tank with air pressure you need a stainless food grade tank. it sounds like you got that part.
but you also need an oil-less air compressor suitable for providing breathing air or food grade. this is very important you cannot use a regular air compressor. let me repeat that you cannot use a regular air compressor and just because it says oil-less does not make it ok. the compressor they use for Hookah diving are ok but are not cheap and the ones that run off of 12v electricity are very expensive.

then all the air lines and tanks must be food or diving grade, again not cheap.

can you see how this is getting very expensive as compared to a non-pressure system.

back in the day the pressurized water systems were plagued with problems and the water that flowed from them was nasty.

highdesertranger

 

[XERTYX]

Seems a very well thought out reply. I'm glad you took the time to read my post. This is exactly why I posed the question. Apart from the oil issue is there an issue present in your mind if used only for the purpose of bathing other than water quality? I would still use store bought and or purified water for cooking. I have had algae growth issues using only just weed sprayer showering. This was using only the built in hand pump in the weed sprayer. I have looked for methods to rinse my clothes in my washing machine already in the small dryer cycle as well as personal bathing. I have in the past used the weed sprayer with the handle detached to provide rinse water to some success. 

I'm less concerned with water lines but of course that is still a concern. 

I do appreciate your knowledgeable response.

I was unaware the issue had been approached in this manner.

 

[highdesertranger]

well for me and this is my opinion, if I am going to carry water into the back country I want it to be potable. if something wee to happen I want to be able to drink my water.

what type of compressor are you thinking of?

compressor that use oil(inexpensive) are going to introduce oil into your water. I don't want to do dishes or to wash myself with oily water. you could use a dryer on the system but this is more money and requires almost daily service to keep it working right. or you can get the throw away version but them you are spending a lot of money.

so now you are looking at oil-less which is going to be a breathing compressor(expensive) or a paint sprayer type. of the latter who knows what goes in the water. most pro auto painters still use a dryer on an oil-less.

with any type of compressor you not only compress air but the moisture in the atmosphere too. the more humidity the more water mixed with the air and that is some gross stuff if you let it sit for to long in the holding tank or lines.

I don't know but it seems to me that you are trying to make a relatively simple system and make it overly complicated.

highdesertranger

 

[XERTYX]

You make some excellent points there. I hadn't really thought about humidity in the air to be honest. The compressor I found that I like is on "the wish app" it would take some time to recieve it as everything on there does but I like that compressor. Its 12V and 150PSI, has an automatic off when full as well as an auto off temperature sensor which would be crucial if an air leak developed while I was away. I like the idea of having an on board air compressor for other things as well. Inflating tires, using air tools like grinders brad nailers etc. I had considered using a paint ball tank to pressurize the system as they're commonly available and there is a hack to refill them using dry ice which is available at many grocery stores but I dont want to ever run out hence the compressor. The only variable I hadn't counted on was air quality from the environment. The kegs only hold 5 gallons and are refillable from the top so I would carry additional water and would see inside the tank every refill to make sure there wasnt any hair growing on anything.

This is more of an experiment really to see if its viable. I really do appreciate the input. Where I am right now I have shore power but no running water so showering is done with a hand pumped weed sprayer connected to a sink sprayer nozzle. It gets the job done but 2 gallons max capacity and stopping to pump the handle mid shower is annoying. 

Even food grade tubing in a CO2 water system grows critters. I've worked in restaurants before and even the squeakiest clean ones have algae in the water line going to the soda fountains I assure you. So I'd like to keep everything easily accessible and visible thru the tubing also having the ability to flush it with bleach periodically. 

While researching if anyone had stored water in a corny keg before I found a Florida based company that had recommended home brewers store drinking water in spare kegs so I'm not the first one to think of it but I'm sure I'm the first to want to build a system around it.

 

[XERTYX]

If you're unfamiliar with them I found a couple of images of cornelius kegs. They are about groin level from the floor and not quite as big around as a soccer ball I would say.

 

[XERTYX]

Oh also I forgot to mention the MAIN reason I would want a pressurized system over a pump is the hot water heaters I researched reccomend not to use with a pump as it needs a constant PSI. They warned that even well pumps may not work with them.

 

[XERTYX]

Sorry to overpost but I thought maybe some people may have never seen or have been interested in a weed sprayer shower. This is a pic similar to one I built and I'll post a link to a how to video I followed on YouTube. I like this method as there is NO cutting or drilling like some methods. The video recommends not to remove the filter on the bottom of the straw that goes into the tank. So long as you're adding clean water I recommend that you do remove it. It makes a tremendous pressure difference. I spent about $25 total to build mine including hardware and a spool of teflon tape for the threaded hose barb.

 

[highdesertranger]

well be sure to keep us posted on the progress and the results.

RV water heaters both tank and tankless have no problems with pumps.

highdesertranger

 

[XERTYX]

Thanks. Right now I'm just cleaning a keg. Its been sitting overnight with a bleach solution in it. It was very dirty. Obviously this wouldnt be an ideal solution for everyone but as I have 2 5 gallon tanks just sitting around it seems to me that I should try it. I havent made any home brew for years so I figured I'd give it a try. If it turns out to be a failure I could always make some of my famous sparkling apple cider. XD I wont post a link to any brew forums as I know some here have (as I do as well) issues with alcohol abuse, but store bought apple juice can make an excellent wine. Apple champagne I call it. But one could search if so inclined. There is a whole internet full of information available on home brewing.

 

[grummy]

Oh also I forgot to mention the MAIN reason I would want a pressurized system over a pump is the hot water heaters I researched reccomend not to use with a pump as it needs a constant PSI. They warned that even well pumps may not work with them.

Do not forget that there are other pump options for you. For example, the simple diaphragm compressor which is just a rubber sheet moving up and down in a chamber. Usually these deliver under 50psi max at max head. When used with air brushes, they often just crack a bleed hole to adjust the pressure desired at the brush. I have seen these in all sorts of sizes, with some really small low voltage ones made for medical devices and can be found in Surplus circles.

THOMAS Industries makes numerous small piston pumps that are not only oil less, but use ceramics for pistons... no metals end up in the air.

Another might be a rotary vane pump. GAST is one common brand. They are generally sold as vacuum pumps, however many are used for lower pressure higher volume air delivery. The vanes are carbon and are essentially inert. I used to use one to feed a conventional spray painting air mask for years (with a simple filter to catch any carbon dust). These generally self limit the potential PSI, meaning obstructions can come and go and the pump will never develop higher pressures... only change volume delivered.

ALL are available in small dimensions and also on the surplus markets. Just search for them prefaced with the word surplus

 

[Minivanmotoman]

https://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-15-gallon-spot-sprayer-9583.html
Fully self contained and ready to go, plug and play.
What advantage does a compressor give you over a pump?

One can find examples of homemade 4-6" ABS pipe roof mounted solar showers with Schrader valves to pressurize online. Many just use gravity feed.

How many psi (pounds per square. Inch.) of pressure do you think you need? Wouldn't it be low, and pump sprayers do develop maybe up to 10-15psi?
More pressure and the faster you will run through your water supply. How much water can you carry?
Thus, wouldn't low pressure be all that you would need?
How constant or continuous do you think you will have to pump water and how much air pressure or cfm ( cubic feet per minute) of air to achieve this?
Air volume wouldn't seem to be much of an issue for occasional sink and shower use.
Wouldn't the real limiting factor be water volume before you run out and how much that you can carry? Not air pressure. And aren't small 12v auto compressors oil less anyway?
As for nasty lines, that is a frequency of flow vs stale lines and heat. Separate issue of usage and storage temperature which will happen no matter what you have.
You have the tanks, just try a small, low cost 12v air compressor and see how it works. Oil, algae and frequency of use/ water volume required would quickly determine utility and function for you.

 

[XERTYX]

Thanks for the replies. My ideal scenario would be to outfit an old camper from craigslist as a tiny home and put it on a small parcel of property. But also to put in a vehicle. I'm gonna test it using Co2 for the moment to see how it works and then make a decision. I have thought of using a throw away type compressor to try it but I'll need a pressure regulator. The cornelius kegs have a blow out valve set at I believe 40psi. The water heater I found for cheap online needed I believe 30psi. Using a "navy" (I'm told) shower head i could limit my usage. They have a piston that almost closes them off. Only enough water comes out to lather up then you push the piston the other way and have a fan of water. I used one years ago to limit usage when i had a mobile home T'd onto a family members water supply.

 

[XERTYX]

Sorry I didnt look at the link to the sprayer before I replied. That would be a great solution. At the moment though I could shower with AND drink water from the kegs I already have. Everything is food grade. So that's my motivation for expanding on what I have. Cornelius kegs are what carnival and possibly early (maybe even current) food truck vendors used to dispense coca cola or pepsi products. Also I'm told mobile window tinting companies use the kegs to hold the liquid medium they use to apply window tint. Idk if they use compressors or Co2.

 

[XERTYX]

A quick search online at the moment 3/21/19 yields refurb cornelius kegs for around $35 btw. If anyone is interested. Mine are used. Both still had Sprite in them when I got them from Ebay about 5 years ago for $50 plus shipping each.

 

[RV Van Life]

first off welcome back.  that's the way they used to do RV's they used pressurized tanks.  but there are several issues as to why they went away from that and to water pump.

the primary reason is cost.  a non pressure tank and water pump is pretty cheap.
second is simplicity a non pressurized tank and water pump is pretty straight forward easy to fix and simple to understand.

let me explain.
if you pressurize the tank with air pressure you need a stainless food grade tank.  it sounds like you got that part.
but you also need an oil-less air compressor suitable for providing breathing air or food grade.  this is very important you cannot use a regular air compressor.  let me repeat that you cannot use a regular air compressor and just because it says oil-less does not make it ok.  the compressor they use for Hookah diving are ok but are not cheap and the ones that run off of 12v electricity are very expensive.

then all the air lines and tanks must be food or diving grade,  again not cheap.

can you see how this is getting very expensive as compared to a non-pressure system.

back in the day the pressurized water systems were plagued with problems and the water that flowed from them was nasty.

highdesertranger

Thank you for your input here, you bring up some good points for one considering a system like this, even before the issues you bring up it is still a very complicated thing to figure by itself. What is the high objection with using a regular 12v air compressor? is it about the air that it would expel? or is it about water damage to the compressor?
 or contamination to the water? Thank you for the advice here in any event.

 

[RV Van Life]

XERTYX, Glad someone is trying to give this thing a go!!!!  I have been wondering about doing something like this for years, but a system like this can be very complicated, and yes, hard to make without its inherent dangers.  
 Most definitely you want to get away from the weed sprayer method, occasional use is fine but it gets old fast when living full time and manually filling and pumping the thing every time.
  I would want to be able to fill the tank by a simple turn of a valve or two, especially if, ideally, putting the tank under the floor, then there needs to be an air escape for that tank as it fills, finding a way to open and close that remotely, 
Looks like you maybe on the right track with your beer keg system but I would figure installing that, under the van, incase of any explosion ,[ I would try to relocate the spare tire from a van's usual place, because there in that area is a lot of valuable space that would become available to you, I took mine out along with the spare tire winch, its a bit of work but worth it for the tons of space you would get ], the 3 sided  metal niches that are under there makes for a, better than nothing, safety explosion containment area, I would never have a pressurized anything inside the van living area.
 I tried making a similar system as yours using a water pressure fire extinguisher but simply gave up, couldn't figure how to fill it remotely, or make it safe,
 Have you tried using those ShurFlo 2 gal pre-pressurized accumulator tank?, its stainless steel, [ 3400-002 ] I have been wanting to experiment with it but I don't know how long I can have pressurized water without having to stop and refill, [which refills by simply turning on the pump] and at a cost of $140. not sure if I currently want to risk it for something that may not work, If any body out there has one of these let me/us know how good it holds the water pressure and for how long.

 

[highdesertranger]

first off I am not against this idea. however I believe it violates the keep it simple rule which really isn't a rule and I violate enough.

I want all the water I carry to be potable. if I am going to the expense of hauling it I want to be able to drink it.

with a pressurized system it's very easy I believe to contaminate the water. I would only use a compressor and components rated for breathing. but that's just me.

right before the RTR I had to replace my RV style water pump it was 28 years old, I also use an accumulator tank it is also 28 years old but still works fine, mine is the plastic type that the user can recharge. boy after I replace the pump I had great water pressure. my old pump must have been in need of a rebuild for quite some time. I could have rebuilt mine but when I tried to remove the head I snap a bolt so I figured it was time.

highdesertranger

 

[XERTYX]

Well I haven't had a chance to get the hardware to adapt my weed sprayer shower nozzle to the tubing for the kegs. I did get around to sanitizing both my tanks and while out for groceries yesterday I planned to buy 10 gallons of bulk water to fill them from a coin operated machine outside the store but the display said "Sorry Sold Out" haha. How a water dispenser can be sold out I'll never know. I'm sure the service date on the filter is past expiration so it shut down. So further testing will have to wait until I have the extra water to spare.

I did while cleaning notice one thing. I filled the tanks with a strong bleach solution and let them sit upright for 12 hours or so and then upside down overnight so as to get the bleach in every nook and cranny.

I never noticed any leaks or dripping of water but the tanks in the morning had lost their pressure. I'd imagine due to the weight of the water pressing down on the O-Ring gasket that seals the fill opening. So in practice I'd imagine the tanks would have to be stored upright. That would rule out putting them under the floor of a van. Maybe under a cabinet as I want to put them in a travel trailer if this proves successful.

 

[RV Van Life]

first off welcome back.  that's the way they used to do RV's they used pressurized tanks.  but there are several issues as to why they went away from that and to water pump.

the primary reason is cost.  a non pressure tank and water pump is pretty cheap.
second is simplicity a non pressurized tank and water pump is pretty straight forward easy to fix and simple to understand.

let me explain.
if you pressurize the tank with air pressure you need a stainless food grade tank.  it sounds like you got that part.
but you also need an oil-less air compressor suitable for providing breathing air or food grade.  this is very important you cannot use a regular air compressor.  let me repeat that you cannot use a regular air compressor and just because it says oil-less does not make it ok.  the compressor they use for Hookah diving are ok but are not cheap and the ones that run off of 12v electricity are very expensive.

then all the air lines and tanks must be food or diving grade,  again not cheap.

can you see how this is getting very expensive as compared to a non-pressure system.

back in the day the pressurized water systems were plagued with problems and the water that flowed from them was nasty.

highdesertranger

There are many advantages to having pressurized water for van living use, if one could achieve it safely, cheaply and simply. 
     The pressurized water that I am currently using is from simple spray bottles, [ the sprayer in "mist" mode], squeeze the trigger and you get mist, when it comes to rinsing dishes or rinsing yourself off while showering, you can extend the supply of your water by multiplied amounts when using pressurized constant water mist, also; for a sink faucet and showering, you can reduce the water flow as low as you want, I currently do all of this with gravity powered water flow, I could never get that kind of water conservation with a running pump, plus the on-demand power required that may not always be available, a well worth it system should only need 1 filling for several uses. Water + pressure = higher volume of water / you can go longer without resupplying.
 The only thing about potable water is that for showering, it is very difficult to rinse the soapy water off you, it requires a lot of water to remove that slimy feel, something about drinking water causes that, and it will use up what little water you have, [this has been my experience].
   I'm hoping someone can figure it out, it's not simple but it would make van living simple in the long run, powering your water flow by a pump uses more water than necessary.
  Thanks for your input, High Desert, on this issue, if I ever give this a try, I won't be using a regular air pump.