JD GUMBEE
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- Joined
- Feb 7, 2018
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Two of my leasing clients have now done tests with the "Promaster" Pentastar vans.
A total of 65 vans were recently tried by four different companies. These were not first-year offerings either. These were all 2017/2018 AFAIK (vins all checked out.) I just uploaded the final records into my datamart this morning.
This test was supposed to go 150,000 miles or four/five years of ownership, whichever came first.
They were all pulled from service and sent to auction.
There's a reason trucks have a rear differential.
FWD is nice when the majority of weight is over the front wheels but not when you try putting heavy weight in the rear...making the front wheels "pull" the load instead of "push" the load. When your front wheels spin, you cannot steer the vehicle.
(Rear drive can lose traction and spin...but you don't lose your steering because of it.)
(An experienced driver can easily control a "drift" (power-slide) situation on a loaded RWD truck. FWD is not nearly as sure footed (WITH A HEAVY LOAD in the back.)
They actually had drivers transfer loads back over to their old vans because they refused to drive the "death trap" Promasters. According to the dispatchers, the FWD frightened them when fully loaded. (Ram was WELL aware of this problem. FWD is not for heavy loads. Period. Same reason they used to limit towing with a Toronado/Eldorado...even thought they had HUGE V8's capable of moving loaded 24' box trucks with relative ease.)
The transmissions failed in 9 of the 65 (and before they even reached 30,000 miles.)
NINE. That is not a good average. (Even the Ford automatics, which are one of the biggest reasons most Ford vans/pickups cost more than double to maintain over 200,000 miles compared to the GM units...almost always last 120,000 or so before spitting their cookies.)
A head gasket, multiple electronic issues and randomly occurring electrical gremlins required the battery to be disconnected once a month or so to "clear the computer" have plagued a number of the Promasters.
(All the drivers learned the trick and the fleet maintenance guys at one location actually installed battery switches the drivers could reset because of it.)
So many QC issues, I cannot count: Windshield leaks, heater box defects, bad radio speakers, flaky door switches, seats that wore out in the first year. (However, to be fair, most of these do not actually stop the vehicle...and the fleet scenario IS the very harshest environment on a vehicle.)
So...WHY am I so all-fired-certain that folks will end up getting the shaft long-term??? After all, the vans were auctioned at low mileage, right?
Here's why:
The Focus was really a re-worked Escort.
The "totally redesigned Taurus" shared more than 65% of its exact guts with the previous years model.
Car companies have adapted platforms and turned past models components into "newly designed" vehicles for decades.
However, Ram "redesigned" old Fiat units to make the Promaster. (A vehicle actually designed by Fiat, Peugeot, Citroen...*gag*)
They took a vehicle with a load rating similar to a Grand Caravan and tweaked it till it was somehow certified for 5000+ pounds of payload. Only...they kept a "Grand-Caravan-like" drive line. (You can get away with doing that for a little while...but longevity suffers.)
ANY vehicle you "max out" will not last long. (Think about how many engines the old air cooled VW buses used to go through.) The Fiat was maxed out at a ton less GVW than Ram says their "newly designed van" can now handle.
I have personally been under several. You would not catch me dead with two and a half tons in the back of that thing. The running gear is just too...WIMPY. Those axle shafts look like they belong on a freaking Toyota Corolla.
The rear axle allows for almost zero ground clearance. (Looks JUST like a Voyager to me.)
Go compare the brakes on a 3500 Nissan van or a 3500 GM van...or any 350 series Ford van with the ones on the heaviest-rated Ram you can buy. Same with the wheel bearings and steering knuckles. (They too...look strangely like the ones on a Grand Caravan...hmm, a glorified K car hauling more than 5000 pounds of cargo...sound safe to you?)
Larger bearing surfaces make more friction and use more fuel. Larger engines do too...so do strong, beefy, "take any punishment" transmissions. They also last.
Even though the MPG figures are appealing, you do not save anything when your van needs a new engine 120,000 miles sooner than it's V8 RWD counterpart. (...and I venture to say...many will not even be able to do that.)
If you want a tall van, I suggest you look into a Nissan (even one of the new Fords...*turn your head and cough*) if buying a GM and having a high-top installed gets stuck in your craw.
For those that are unaware; I do fleet data for a living and have millions of light and heavy truck units in my databases/marts.
(The large leasing companies do not take spending money lightly, so I am hired to ensure we know how much each vehicle costs-per-mile to operate over its life.)
Both of the leasing companies involved in this particular test currently refuse to lease the Promaster. They will actually turn down the business if you request a lease on them. (That really should say a lot right there.)
My attempts at sharing data/knowledge has been plagued here in the past...by people who think their experience with one or two vehicles should outweigh the data from a thousand or more like-units with bean-counter-level records of expenses. I will not even reply to these "troll-worthy" statements.
If you own a Promaster...I hope it serves you trouble free for 300,000 miles and you shake your head, ten years from now...as you think about stupid JD and his bad advice. (...but all signs point to that not happening. They went too far downsizing the Prostar. Too wimpy. Too light duty to carry 5000+ pounds on little more than a glorified Kcar.)
Best of luck, no matter what vehicle you choose to carry you.
A total of 65 vans were recently tried by four different companies. These were not first-year offerings either. These were all 2017/2018 AFAIK (vins all checked out.) I just uploaded the final records into my datamart this morning.
This test was supposed to go 150,000 miles or four/five years of ownership, whichever came first.
They were all pulled from service and sent to auction.
There's a reason trucks have a rear differential.
FWD is nice when the majority of weight is over the front wheels but not when you try putting heavy weight in the rear...making the front wheels "pull" the load instead of "push" the load. When your front wheels spin, you cannot steer the vehicle.
(Rear drive can lose traction and spin...but you don't lose your steering because of it.)
(An experienced driver can easily control a "drift" (power-slide) situation on a loaded RWD truck. FWD is not nearly as sure footed (WITH A HEAVY LOAD in the back.)
They actually had drivers transfer loads back over to their old vans because they refused to drive the "death trap" Promasters. According to the dispatchers, the FWD frightened them when fully loaded. (Ram was WELL aware of this problem. FWD is not for heavy loads. Period. Same reason they used to limit towing with a Toronado/Eldorado...even thought they had HUGE V8's capable of moving loaded 24' box trucks with relative ease.)
The transmissions failed in 9 of the 65 (and before they even reached 30,000 miles.)
NINE. That is not a good average. (Even the Ford automatics, which are one of the biggest reasons most Ford vans/pickups cost more than double to maintain over 200,000 miles compared to the GM units...almost always last 120,000 or so before spitting their cookies.)
A head gasket, multiple electronic issues and randomly occurring electrical gremlins required the battery to be disconnected once a month or so to "clear the computer" have plagued a number of the Promasters.
(All the drivers learned the trick and the fleet maintenance guys at one location actually installed battery switches the drivers could reset because of it.)
So many QC issues, I cannot count: Windshield leaks, heater box defects, bad radio speakers, flaky door switches, seats that wore out in the first year. (However, to be fair, most of these do not actually stop the vehicle...and the fleet scenario IS the very harshest environment on a vehicle.)
So...WHY am I so all-fired-certain that folks will end up getting the shaft long-term??? After all, the vans were auctioned at low mileage, right?
Here's why:
The Focus was really a re-worked Escort.
The "totally redesigned Taurus" shared more than 65% of its exact guts with the previous years model.
Car companies have adapted platforms and turned past models components into "newly designed" vehicles for decades.
However, Ram "redesigned" old Fiat units to make the Promaster. (A vehicle actually designed by Fiat, Peugeot, Citroen...*gag*)
They took a vehicle with a load rating similar to a Grand Caravan and tweaked it till it was somehow certified for 5000+ pounds of payload. Only...they kept a "Grand-Caravan-like" drive line. (You can get away with doing that for a little while...but longevity suffers.)
ANY vehicle you "max out" will not last long. (Think about how many engines the old air cooled VW buses used to go through.) The Fiat was maxed out at a ton less GVW than Ram says their "newly designed van" can now handle.
I have personally been under several. You would not catch me dead with two and a half tons in the back of that thing. The running gear is just too...WIMPY. Those axle shafts look like they belong on a freaking Toyota Corolla.
The rear axle allows for almost zero ground clearance. (Looks JUST like a Voyager to me.)
Go compare the brakes on a 3500 Nissan van or a 3500 GM van...or any 350 series Ford van with the ones on the heaviest-rated Ram you can buy. Same with the wheel bearings and steering knuckles. (They too...look strangely like the ones on a Grand Caravan...hmm, a glorified K car hauling more than 5000 pounds of cargo...sound safe to you?)
Larger bearing surfaces make more friction and use more fuel. Larger engines do too...so do strong, beefy, "take any punishment" transmissions. They also last.
Even though the MPG figures are appealing, you do not save anything when your van needs a new engine 120,000 miles sooner than it's V8 RWD counterpart. (...and I venture to say...many will not even be able to do that.)
If you want a tall van, I suggest you look into a Nissan (even one of the new Fords...*turn your head and cough*) if buying a GM and having a high-top installed gets stuck in your craw.
For those that are unaware; I do fleet data for a living and have millions of light and heavy truck units in my databases/marts.
(The large leasing companies do not take spending money lightly, so I am hired to ensure we know how much each vehicle costs-per-mile to operate over its life.)
Both of the leasing companies involved in this particular test currently refuse to lease the Promaster. They will actually turn down the business if you request a lease on them. (That really should say a lot right there.)
My attempts at sharing data/knowledge has been plagued here in the past...by people who think their experience with one or two vehicles should outweigh the data from a thousand or more like-units with bean-counter-level records of expenses. I will not even reply to these "troll-worthy" statements.
If you own a Promaster...I hope it serves you trouble free for 300,000 miles and you shake your head, ten years from now...as you think about stupid JD and his bad advice. (...but all signs point to that not happening. They went too far downsizing the Prostar. Too wimpy. Too light duty to carry 5000+ pounds on little more than a glorified Kcar.)
Best of luck, no matter what vehicle you choose to carry you.
