Van Shopping in Phoenix - Help Welcomed

[Gadget728]

I called myself a Ford guy for years because I've owned 5 Mustangs. I'm now a GM guy. Better vehicles, easy to get parts and not too bad to work on. IMHO

Someone posted here they noticed a lot more long Fords for sale on CL & used car lots, because the good GM's get snatched up so fast.

 

[Vagabound]

Hi all,

OK, an update is in order, and jet lag provides the off-peak opportunity, so here goes.  

I spent a good part of yesterday checking out this box truck from a link that Gary68 generously found (thanks again for all of the links, Gary!):

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/cto/5843976804.html

In the end, I did not buy it.  I want to explain why, in case it helps others doing this same thing.


--------------------------------

Process:
* Gathered as much info as I could beforehand.   Vehicle seemed well worth checking out.  Owner is a small dealer and seemed better than most. 
* Got out to the vehicle at 9am.  Started looking it over and taking photos.  Even brought a flat cardboard box to lay down on while inspecting the underside, thanks to good advice I got to do so (nice tip).  More on that later.
* Noticed the GVWR was 9,600 lbs.  Under 10K - excellent.
* Standing room was about 74" - excellent.
* Pass-through between cab and box already exists.  Unexpected bonus.  Excellent.
* Box was 10' actually, not 12', unless you count the little bubble part over the cab.
* I completed the inspection top down, finishing cab, engine compartment, box, wheels.  All excellent to good.  I was planning to crawl under it, but liked what I saw so much that I thought, "My mechanic will check that anyway" and so I skipped it.
* Took the box truck to my mechanic.  They spent about an hour crawling up its many orifices for about $100, and issued a report.
* In short, it was a strong "Don't Buy" recommendation.  Why?  Several things.

• Senior mechanic used the word "rust bucket".  The frame had lots of rust with a few places rusted through.  Not possible to repair.
• Numerous mechanical things needed repair / replacement (shocks, leaking fluids, etc).
• There was a pile of wiring under the back bumper area.  It was such a nightmare that the mechanics estimated $1,000 to repair/replace just that.  That estimate sounded exhorbitant, but I think they were tired of this vehicle by then.
• There was evidence that the box truck had been in a front end collision.
• All of the codes in the computer were recently cleared.  Could be for a valid reason, but combined with everything else, maybe an attempt to cover things up.
• Speaking of covering things up, it was suggested to me prior to the inspection that the plywood over-floor and wooden wheel well covers might be there to cover up problems.  I think it was.  The original floor was rotted in places, which matches all of the water / salt damage to the undercarriage.

---------------------------------------------

I learned lots of great stuff from the military, but one was the habit of a non-emotional, improvement-focused final part of every project -- Lessons Learned:


LL # 1.  (Re-learned)  Appearances can be deceiving, even when 90% of the appearance is great.

For example, a van/truck that looks like this:


http://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4WN6ruUg_W0TlpjYUd0M09rQ2s

http://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4WN6ruUg_W0VzFBY0FhR3daM0k

http://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4WN6ruUg_W0YTdmc3FQb0dzUzQ


-----------

Can also look like this, even in Arizona:


http://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4WN6ruUg_W0VGw2Mm5fSWRGWVU

http://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4WN6ruUg_W0NnF5cVpLdmhmNlk

http://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4WN6ruUg_W0Rk9lT00weF9wVWc

http://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4WN6ruUg_W0UzJUMkx0bks5ZjA


------------------------------

LL # 2:  Things aren't always from where you think

I came to the desert specifically to buy a "desert" vehicle.  Turns out that the first 10 years of its 13 year life were spent in New York/Vermont on snowy, salty roads.  The more I learned about the history, I think this vehicle was rusted badly there, and someone brought it to Phoenix to pass it off as a local vehicle to people not very observant.  CarFax was a big help here.


------------------------------

LL # 3:  Use CarFax first, not last

Had I done that and given it more thought, I would have recognized that this wasn't the _type_ of vehicle I was searching for (desert operated).  CarFax doesn't have to be a perfect product to tell you accurately where a vehicle comes from.


------------------------------

LL # 4:  Deception can look very polite and reasonable

When the whole inspection shebang was over, and I told the owner I couldn't buy the vehicle, he asked why.  I explained the inspection report results, which were not equivocal in any way.  Some of it I'm sure he already knew.  Did he apologize for wasting my time?  Or my money on the inspection?  No.

His main concern and response:  "I knew I shouldn't let people take my cars to a mechanic."  

Really.  With no apparent awareness of just how corrupt that sounded.  And this guy is a licensed dealer.  More info by PM if needed.


------------------------------

LL # 5:  Limits of a System:
There is tremendous benefit to a systematic approach to almost everything.  However, even the best system will fail if you don't use it consistently.  Despite what we might otherwise like to believe, the universe doesn't store up any goodwill from your previous goodness, and shower it upon you when you forget to do the right thing.  You can tie your shoes everyday for 50 years, and if you skip once during the 51st year, you'll trip on your dragging shoelaces.  The only sure way to fix that is to tie your shoes.  What does this have to do with the price of eggs in China (or this topic)?  I skipped looking under the truck before I took it to the mechanic for inspection.  I didn't forget.  I skipped it.  Why?  Enthusiasm, hopefulness, dizzy with the good luck of finding the right truck the first time out of the chute, and out of practice.  Result:  I lost at least 4 hours of time and $100 on a formal detailed inspection that really wasn't needed.  Ten minutes under that vehicle and I could have made that same decision on my own.

Not angry about the $100 inspection fee.  It was tuition, to learn the inspection system and to re-learn to follow my system without fail or enthusiasm.

Thanks a bunch to those who helped me understand what to look for here.

The search continues ...

Vagabound

 

[highdesertranger]

boy you sure couldn't tell from the pics or description. good call on passing. highdesertranger

 

[Gary68]

yea,when you told me it was a flipper "danger will robinson" popped in my head,i flipped cars,my retired neighbor flips trucks for a hobby but we tend to look for the diamond in the ruff types the guy down the road trying to make a living from it gets his from insurance/wrecking yard damaged vehicles,replaces the minimum and prices at top of market

a good flashlight and foam pad to lie on and then just lay there looking

that $100 just saved you a lot of $$$ and misery,good move

i'll keep looking

 

[ZoNiE]

Yeah, I have two Sport Tracs. My 2001 I bought new here in Phoenix. My 2009 I bought on the east coast and shipped it. I inspected under it, but it wasn't too bad. I think the PO used it in good weather only, but the difference underneath, amazing. I have never seen rusted brake pad brackets before. Oddly, they were supposedly replaced by the shitty dealer I bought the '09 from. Guess not. At least the new rear brake pads came with new hardware. The '09 wasn't bad, but besides the brakes, the rust issue did affect one other thing, the exhaust manifold studs. Required new heads, thankfully it only cost me $100 deductible on the extended warranty. $6500 repair

 

[wagoneer]

what does it matter flipper or whatever/whomever, you gotta judge the vehicle yourself I don,t even listen to the seller when they talk, blah blah blah, just trying to get the car sold. Bottom line know what your doing or good luck.

 

[wagoneer]

Flipper/ schipper You are the buyer better know what you are buying.( I'm not even Jewish). anyway good luck if I were with you would give you my 2 cents

 

[Every Road Leads Home]

I flip stuff all the time, I try and be as honest as I can about what i'm selling. I know not everyone will do it, but i'll take back and refund someone all their money on anything I sell if it fails or doesn't meet their expectations in anyway. Heck, if they just changed their mind i'd probably take it back. I bought my first truck when I was 17, it was a used Ford Ranger and the transmission broke three days after I got it. I called the seller and he offered to pay for a new one. Nobody could have known the transmission was going to go. My dad offered to split it with him as he didn't think the guy should be on the hook for the full amount.

Fast forward 20 years later. I sold my Jeep Cherokee to a young kid, it was his first car. I knew it's entire history from the day it left the lot, told him and his Mom everything I knew about it. Get a call a few weeks later, the transmission went! I offered to pay to replace it and the mom called me back and said she'd like to split it with me. I got a kick out of that, and can only imagine my old man was smiling down on the situation from above. If there is an above?, but that's a conversation for another day.

 

[Vagabound]

Flipper/ schipper  You are the buyer better know what you are buying.( I'm not even Jewish). anyway good luck if I were with you would give you my 2 cents

I'd love to have your 2 cents ... as long as involved more than saying be an ASE-certified mechanic or else you deserve abuse. Tall order for most people.

Vagabound

 

[Vagabound]

I flip stuff all the time,  I try and be as honest as I can about what i'm selling. I know not everyone will do it, but i'll take back and refund someone all their money on anything I sell if it fails or doesn't meet their expectations in anyway.  Heck, if they just changed their mind ...

Great story and way to do business.

Vagabound

 

[Vagabound]

Update:

* No other serious fish on the line yet.

* A1 Vans Rental and Leasing, 2217 E. Washington St., Phoenix, AZ 85034

• Spent a good bit of time here yesterday learning what they are and aren't, and checking out their inventory.  Might be helpful for some here to know about them, and their attitude and assistance yesterday deserve a mention.
• As their name would suggest, they mostly do rentals, and that, of passenger vans.

• They seemed to have about 50-75 vans on their lot for rent.  Nearly all passenger vans.  Five or six cargo vans.  Lots of cargo trailers for rent with their vans.
• They do sell all of that when they want to move them from their inventory, but only passenger vans regularly.
• At present, there are 10 vans on their "For Sale" list; all are 2008 and passenger; Chevy and Ford; 12-pax and 15-pax; 150-160K miles; in the $7,700 to $8,600 range.
• Note on the sale sheet says "Add 8.6% sales tax, title, and license fees and $49 doc fee to all prices"
• They are fleet maintained (two mechanics on staff) and look to be in very good shape
• Main office point of contact, Dave, was very helpful, as was Mickey in the van yard; both long-time employees.  They are a boom and bust operation (they can rent their entire fleet in a day or so during a big local event), so if you catch them at a busy time, call back in a few days.
• Overall, interacting with them was a pleasurable and informative event.  I'd buy a van from them without hesitation.
• 800-899-4320 / 602-275-7300
• www.a1leasing.com
• [email protected]

-------------------------------

U-Haul Corporate Headquarters is also in Phoenix

• 2727 N Central Ave, Phoenix, AZ 85004
• Stopped here as well.  What a night and day difference from A1 Vans
• My goal was to have a brief chat with someone about the methods of selling their used box trucks, locate areas where they might congregate in quantity, learn how to access the inventory, etc.
• Never made it past the security guard at the front door
• He (security guard) made a few internal calls for me, but no one he contacted inside his building knew anything about selling their used inventory. Furthermore, no one had any interest in knowing or finding out. They were at total peace with their ignorance.
• Then he called the "Tech Center", also in Phoenix, and a part of their operations.  They also were no help whatsoever.
• At the end of the 30-minute encounter, the only thing I left with, other than a headache, was exactly what I told them I did not want -- a list of nearby rental locations.
• In most retail places that I've visited recently, and other places like this corporate headquarters, the employees have abdicated all responsibility to know anything.  They all drone the same mantra -- "Check the Internet". Right in front of me they get on the Internet and go to the same public site that anyone else could go to (Home Depot, etc).
• Overall, interacting with U-Haul Corporate was frustrating and fruitless. I really want to try to avoid buying anything from them or even renting from them in the future. Companies that do business that way should not be rewarded, in my opinion.

The search continues ...

Vagabound

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

U-Haul Corporate Headquarters is also in Phoenix

• 2727 N Central Ave, Phoenix, AZ 85004
• Stopped here as well.  What a night and day difference from A1 Vans
• My goal was to have a brief chat with someone about the methods of selling their used box trucks, locate areas where they might congregate in quantity, learn how to access the inventory, etc.
• Never made it past the security guard at the front door
• He (security guard) made a few internal calls for me, but no one he contacted inside his building knew anything about selling their used inventory.  Furthermore, no one had any interest in knowing or finding out.  They were at total peace with their ignorance.
• Then he called the "Tech Center", also in Phoenix, and a part of their operations.  They also were no help whatsoever.
• At the end of the 30-minute encounter, the only thing I left with, other than a headache, was exactly what I told them I did not want -- a list of nearby rental locations.
• In most retail places that I've visited recently, and other places like this corporate headquarters, the employees have abdicated all responsibility to know anything.  They all drone the same mantra -- "Check the Internet".  Right in front of me they get on the Internet and go to the same public site that anyone else could go to (Home Depot, etc).
• Overall, interacting with U-Haul Corporate was frustrating and fruitless.  I really want to try to avoid buying anything from them or even renting from them in the future.  Companies that do business that way should not be rewarded, in my opinion.

Reminds me of the movie "How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying"

"Who the Hell was that?"
"Where the Hell is the Factory?"
"What the Hell is a Widget?"

 

[Vagabound]

Reminds me of the movie "How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying"

"Who the Hell was that?"
"Where the Hell is the Factory?"
"What the Hell is a Widget?"

Never saw it, which is weird as I'm a movie hound, but sounds very funny.  I'll put it on the "go find" list.

And you nailed it.  Stunning that they could become a national company.  Talked to a guy last night who worked at the HQ for ten years, long ago.  Some very funny stories, but the one most applicable is that the two brothers that owned/founded/ran the company didn't talk to each other much, for whatever reason.  So one took the corporate HQ as his kingdom, and one took the field operations.  So, the whole place was modeled, consciously and not, on this division and lack of cooperation between HQ and the field.  Nice, huh?

Vagabound

 

[ArtW]

glad you caught that, a rusted out frame is death
I figure if I ever bought a box truck from U Haul, I'd just go to the site of sale
I might check that van rental place you liked out, some day

 

[Vagabound]

glad you caught that, a rusted out frame is death
I figure if I ever bought a box truck from U Haul, I'd just go to the site of sale
I might check that van rental place you liked out, some day

If I wanted a passenger van, and 2008, I'd be all over that place.

Vagabound

 

[TooManyDogs]

I took two vans for test drives this morning and thanks to your report, I made sure to craw under the vehicles: one was badly rusted and the other had a couple of leaks (probably from the engine and from the power steering pump).

Hope you find your vehicle soon! Thanks again!

 

[Vagabound]

...

Hope you find your vehicle soon! Thanks again!

Thanks and glad it helped. You, too.

Vagabound

 

[Headache]

I just started reading this thread and I'm glad those who brought up Ford's 6.0 chimed in because it was worth literally less than a boat anchor.  The issues with the 5.4(what I have) wasn't as much a spark plug issue as it was the COPs(coil over plugs).  I can tell you all about that issue.  Luckily I have 235k on mine and no sign of stopping yet but I need a 1 ton van.  I'm also the 3rd owner on this van and the first two(up until the last year with the 2nd owner because of a death in the family) took great care of it.

Bob brings up some great feedback on the issues Ford has with taking care of it's customers but it's first taste of easy "screw you" profits came when it put out it's first generation PowerChokes(after a nasty squabble with International, thankfully my engine is a Cornbinder on the 26 footer) and then worked out the bugs when it was selling it's first computerized automatic known as the E40D or E 4 OH DEAD! shortly after. It's almost as if every 10 years Ford comes up with another FU scheme.  Yes I own one but I've been a Chevy gal since high school.

Vagabound those pictures of that kind of rust tell me those vans spent time either on the coast, in flood zones, in humid areas or all three.  The rust patterns are very similar to the rust on my van except mine doesn't have rusted through frame members and wheel wells.  My van after being delivered spent the first five years of it's life up here in WA and the last year up here as well.  The rest of the time it's been in AZ and UT.

I'm well versed in UHaul.  As you know you went to the corporate office and they just handle admin things and paperwork.  They are desk jockeys.  You have to go to a truck sales site and you could spend a good week going to all of them in and around Phoenix.  Since you have internet access your first choice for shopping Creamsicle Cruisers(Creamsicle is NOT humored by this nickname) is their online store:

https://www.uhaul.com/TruckSales/

As you saw from looking at the other box truck, the box is measured by roof length not floor length.  Mine has a 26 foot box measured from the roof but the floor is 21 feet.  I just happen to have the most popular one because it was the last year of the 7.3 IDI, all mechanical with the 5 speed and air ride suspension in the back that isn't neutered at 55 mph(65mph woop woop!).

The above link lists all the locations but make sure to call a location first!  The smaller trucks go FAST!  You could literally schedule to look at one and it could be sold before you get there.  *IF* you buy one there are a lot of proprietary things done to them to "UHaulize" them.  Thankfully UHaul sells their extra parts in their fleabay store:

https://www.uhaul.com/TruckSales/Truck-Trailer-Parts/

They have new and used parts and if the part you want is local to you then you can pick it up at the location.

Now, am I recommending you buy from them?  Not really.  The nice thing about buying directly from them is that you can get the entire maintenance history which most often you can't get buying elsewhere.  They do have a really good fleet maintenance program but a sometimes lousy repair program. Most likely these trucks were rode hard and put away wet, overloaded a lot of the time, etc.  Outside of the PMs and "must fix" issues they really tried to pass off repairs if a truck is close to retirement.  Hell mine still had the original shocks on it(218k miles!). I will state though that you'll have less surprises buying from them. They are crap, they know it. Sometimes you can get one for half the advertised price if it's a real junker but they are less likely to haggle with the small trucks. You are buying a piece of crap but sometimes you do find a diamond in the rough.

Good luck!  I'll be shopping soon myself and I hope my current ride holds together long enough for me to do so.

 

[Vagabound]

...

Good luck!  I'll be shopping soon myself and I hope my current ride holds together long enough for me to do so.

I already posted this reply once, from my phone, but nada.  Oh well.  I said, welcome to the thread and thanks for all of the good info.

I've since checked U-Haul and Penske online.  A few 10' trucks, not many, but they are all well over $10K.  Too rich for my blood at present.

Plan to get deadly serious about Craigslist, etc. tomorrow.

Vagabound

 

[Vagabound]

Update and Request for Advice:

Hi Everyone,

Time for a feeding frenzy.

Please take a look at the following info and photos related to my current candidate truck.  Tear it apart, tell me nice things, whatever your fancy.  All I’ll say is that if anyone has anything negative or cautionary to say, I’d rather hear it now than after signing the bill of sale, if you know what I mean.  Providing most but not complete info.  If you need to know something that’s missing, ask me please. 

Year:  1994
Make:  GMC
Model:  Sierra 3500 SL (Box Truck - U-Haul)

Mileage:  162,927
• 94,999 (Nov 2000)
• 161,438 (Mar 2013)
• 162,000 (Mar 2015)
• 162,078 (Jun 2015)
• 162,927 (Today)

GVWR: 11,000 lbs.
Wheels:  6 (dually)
Engine:  7.4L V8 (gas)
Interior:  A/C; radio; bench seat (so no pass-thru to box)
Paint:  White, very very recently and quicky job (owner paints and plumbs for occupation)
Owners:  U-Haul.  Six or seven owners so far (NY a couple of years, AZ, then OR, then AZ again)
Chassis condition:  Minor surface rust on major members
Box Condition:  Very solid; aluminum floor; 
Box Size (inside, not including cab-over):  
• 11’3” L
• 7’6” W
• 6’10” H with rolling door down;  6’5” with door up
• Cab-over area:  31” extra length; 40” high (ceiling to floor of cab-over)
Hitch:  Bumper only

Things I Like
* Aluminum box floor
* General condition
* Cab-over
* Box interior dimensions
* Strong Engine (until arriving at gas pump)

Things that don’t work or raise my eyebrows:
• Horn
• Brake lights
• Title – It was branded “Exceeds Mechanical Limits” when in Oregon, but now that it is in Arizona, its title is clean (“normal”).  I’m aware of the practice of “title washing”, but not sure if it applies here; seems not.  CarFax (and others) say that that specific title brand (EML) is used only for mechanical (not digital) odometers that won’t go past 99,999.  So, when they roll over naturally, no one knows if it’s for the first time or second time, etc.  So, they brand the title as a caution.  Doesn’t sound like such a red flag.  However, the plot thickens.  When I inspected the vehicle today, it still has a mechanical odometer, but it has one with 6 digits, so it is fully capable of going to 999,999.  The problem?  Why did Oregon brand the title if the odometer was able to counting past 99,999?  The only thing I can think of is someone replaced the odometer somewhere along the line, after its time in Oregon.  And then what?  Manually set it to whatever mileage they wanted?  Just guessing.

My intended use:
• Full-time live-aboard / DIY RV
• Cargo trailer towing

If possible (and it often ain’t possible), I’ll attach some photos below.  Trying to upload 14 of them.  Never been successful doing it all in once post.  Will do multiple posts.  Please pause replies until either the photos upload or I post saying they won’t.

Thanks for your kind and quick thoughts,

Vagabound