Van deep cycle AGM vs WET cells ? ? ?

DARKLINKS614 · Apr 7, 2012

I am looking at battery's for adding 110 volt power to my van and I left wonder here. I want around 300 or more Amp hours for running my stuff as I am only able to use 50% of the power in the cells. The optima yellow top d31T and looks to be the biggest that amazon.com Carry's it rate for Reserve Capacity 155 and Capacity (C/20 rate) 75 or is it 900 Cold Cranking Amps @ 0 F what one the amps per hours that the battery holds??? Also when looking at wet cells vs AGM deep cycle how long do they last and how long to the take to charge back? My van has a 125 amp alternator I asked optima and they said they can safely run linked to the alternator so I am good there.. Also I heard that inverts run best when at there high end of there rating so does One small inverter to run the laptop and fridge and one larger inverter for the microwave oven much sense?

VanTrekker · Apr 7, 2012

Hi...   To answer the Optima questions, I couldn't find any of their batteries that fit my need which was similar to yours.  In general, if a battery brags about it's cranking amps, it's not going to be a true deep cycle.  Good deep cycle batteries provide their power much slower over a longer period of time and don't make good starting batteries... Some starting batteries try to do both.  The starting battery in my Express van is a dual purpose:  a good starting battery but also has a 63 AH capability.  Sometimes I take advantage it, too! (leaving the laptop charger plugged in all day, etc.) But it's not a true deep cycle.  Are you using a compressor type fridge then? Pretty much any fridge will take a ton of electricty if run 24 hours.  My little 12 volt Koolatron can use 72 amp hours by iteself.  (I switch it from the house batteries to the starting battery while driving very far... My system is separate) One good thing to remember is that the smallest microwave (600 watts) actually uses 900 watts of power due to their inefficiency.  That's about 75 amps per hour.  If you add in the inefficiency of the inverter, it will draw up to 10-20% more than that.  For that reason, I have a 2500 watt Cobra inverter - I use it for everything.  It draws very little current during light usage.  I did stop using the microwave on the inverter because it draws so much current and doesn't like the modified sine wave.  It makes strange noises. I prefer AGM batteries because they are sealed, safer (no hydrogen) and are forgiving about the orientation for mounting.  Unfortunately, they are also much more expensive.  If you're planning to run a microwave very much, 300 AH would be okay but I'd definitely recommend 400, if possible. AGM batteries can take a pretty hefty amount of charging current.  I have a 400 AH (actually rated closer to 460 AH) bank.  I don't run it very far down (not much more than 25%).  With the Iota charger plugged into shore power or a generator, the bulk phase (55 Amps charging) only takes about an hour and a half to get it to about 95%.  Since adding solar, the panel keeps topping the panels off every day from the previous night's usage.  <img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle"> If you're charging from the alternator, you're going to need to run the engine a lot if you run the battery bank very far down...  For example if out of a 125 amp alternator you have say... 90 unused amps available, charging back 150 amp/hours (half discrage) to your 300 AH battery bank might take an hour and a half or so... I hope some of this rambling helps a little.

SoulRaven · Apr 8, 2012

Yup a microwave will not even power up with the little power you have described... Microwaves are an luxury for when you have a huge bank of batteries, a generator, or shore power... Best bet is to invest in a nice stove, ice chest, and possibly one of those lunch box 12V ovens... That is till you get a handle and truly understand your power situation... Also there is one more type of battery which is the gel, of these three types of batteries there is many versions...For me I have 2 12V deep cycle (wet) batteries and a 12V deep cycle (wet) 8D battery which is huge and used on heavy equipment...

ped · Apr 8, 2012

^^ Those 12v ovens will use WAY more battery than a microwave. Microwaves are pretty economical way to heat and use very little battery power. They draw 3X the current but you run them 5-10X less. As long as you have 2 or more batteries to handle the current draw you're fine. Or just start the vehicle. But they will not hardly make a dent out of your reserve every day. So the math to figure your amperage useage goes watts/volts = amps. So let's say the 700w microwave uses an actuall 900w. 900/12 = 75 amps. Amps in battery capacity is measured by the hour. So every hour you run a microwave it will take 75 amps from your batteries. But most uses only call for 1-2 minutes. So to figure the minute amperage use you simply divide 75A by 60 which equals 1.25 amps per minute. Lets say you nuke a frozen burrito twice a day for 2 minutes each for a total of 4 minutes daily. 4 X 1.25 = 5A daily use. With a 300w 12v oven you use 25A every hour. To heat the same frozen burritos you will run that oven, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, probably about 15 minutes each for a total of a half hour a day. 25A divided by 2 equals 15 amps from the battery. 3X the microwave. As well you can get a real freezer/fridge that runs on ~1.5A average. They're just $700 or so. <A href="http://www.engel-usa.com/index.php?..._id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=59" target=_blank target=_blank>http://www.engel-usa.com/index.php?..._id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=59</A>

SoulRaven · Apr 8, 2012

Ped I know through experience that arguing with you is like arguing with a tree... I do not talk of things by reading info, my experience is real world and I don't pull punches when I speak of things that just don't work in the field if you don't have a serious electrical set-up... So those that want to follow your advise are more than welcome... I firmly stand by my advise though, and want to see those starting out and already in the field save money and be successful...

akrvbob · Apr 8, 2012

AGM vs Wet Cell: Wet cell is so much cheaper, most of us end up with them. The problem is it is so inconvienant to take care of them we don't, and then they fail early. So AGMs will usually last longer, but becuase they cost twice as much, did you really gain anything? It's a tough call. The best solution is to hook them up to enough solar that they stay charged at 40% or above all the time. AGMS will last a really long time that way and worth the extra money. Charging off you alternator is not nearly as good as most people think. Your starting battery is nearly always full (which is why they last so long). The voltage regulator  sees it is full, and cuts back on the power, or it will overcharge and destroy the starting battery. It doesn't know or care that your house battery is in line and almost empty. It stops charging when the house battery is full. So hook up to the alternator, but keep a close eye on the house battery and don't run it below 50%. I have  190 watts of solar and love my 12 volt oven, I use it all the time. They only draw about 9 amps/hour. Microwaves like very pure power. You will want a pure sine wave inverter to use one. I tried running one off a Coleman 2000 watt inverter. It took 6 minutes to cook a bag of microwave popcorn, and most of the kernals never popped. I got rid of both the micro and Coleman. A 1200 watt Pure Sine Wave  is the minimum, and 1500 watts would be better. Bob

DARKLINKS614 · Apr 8, 2012

I am been studying up and think that a wet cell is better for me due to cost but i want them to last so I leaning to two trogen t-105 6 volt links to make 12 volts. I looked at also dropping the fridge idea as it well draw a alot of amps. If I need one I can get a second set of t-105 and i think that well cover it. It says that they are ture deep cycle and can handle a daily load n drain. I well have 225 per t-105 so 450 amps and I am using less then 100 amps after re working everything I well never go lower then 75% charge. I do think by upgrading  the alternator to a 200 amp model it well speed up recharge times a bit. I am also looking  at pure sine wave inverters. If  I get a microwave oven I am guessing I well need a 1500 watt model. It just keeps adding up lol. Going broke to live in a van...

Willy · Apr 8, 2012

I have both in my rig.. 2 deep cycle wet cells in parallel (75 AH each) and 3  22AH gel cells hooked up in parallel. The wet cells are hooked to a solid state battery isolator with a cutout which disables the solar to the wet cells when the truck is running and shunts the full solar to the gel cells (solar buggers up the metering). Here's a page to ponder:  http://www.bcae1.com/battiso.htm Just Google "battery isolator" and you'll see some pretty skookum units that enable separate charging of your batteries with the same alternator.. without overcharging one of them.  Something that totally obviates the 12v oven amperage draw argument is this:  http://www.amazon.com/Camp-Chef-Camping-Outdoor-Burner/dp/B0013LLSZG  and, for refrigeration, something like this:  http://www.amazon.com/43-Portable-C...den&ie=UTF8&qid=1333937378&sr=1-1  The compressor fridges/coolers/freezers require remarkably little power and beat the solid state Peltier junction fridges so badly it ain't funny (I've had both and now have a Waeco for the last few years).  One last thing I should mention is that if you only draw your batteries down to max 60% charge (40% used), they will last a LOT longer. Lead acid batteries like shallow discharges, regardless of the battery type (deep cycle, gel, starting, etc.) and it's the repeated deep cycling that kills 'em. ..Willy.

VanTrekker · Apr 9, 2012

I agree that a freon type fridge has many benefits.  There are other factors though.  In my case, I wanted something easily switchable between alternator power and the house batteries.  The type of enclosure and the portability is a concern.  Does it need to reside in the camper all the time or what if a person wants to take it in a hotel or a house?   There are terrific ideas here but no right or wrong answers, no magic bullets... just lots of experience and good recommendations. I also agree with never going below 60% on the batteries, if possible.  I chose bigger batteries and try to keep closer to 70% or so...  Some might say to get a battery and USE it but I would rather use it gently.  My 400 AH (actually more like 460 AH at the slower discharge rate) batteries tend to hold voltage even better the slower they are discharged, to a degree.  (Of course, you don't want to consistently drain them TOO little or then you get sulfation).

akrvbob · Apr 9, 2012

If I need one I can get a second set of t-105 and i think that well cover it. It says that they are ture deep cycle and can handle a daily load n drain. I well have 225 per t-105 so 450 amps and I am using less then 100 amps after re working everything I well never go lower then 75% charge. I do think by upgrading  the alternator to a 200 amp model it well speed up recharge times a bit.

There are a couple of things I'd like to clarify in this post, not trying to be a know-it-all, just want everyone to be well informed. <ul><li>First, when you take two 6 volt batteries and connect them in series, the volts double, but the amps stay the same. So they become 12 volt.. but they remain 225 amp hours. </li><li>Second, one of the worst things you can do to a deep cycle is try to cram too many amps into it during charging. Go to the Trojan battery web site, and you will see that they recommend a 10% charge rate. Since you will have 225 ah batteries, you don't want to charge them faster than 22 amps per hour. So putting in a 200 amp alternator won't do you any good at all, just wasted money. That's why batteries being charged by solar last the longest, they are never charged at a high rate and the controller keeps them from being overcharged. </li></ul> About fridges: I have a Waeco/Dometic compressor fridge, and it draws 3 amps per hour. But it only comes on 2-5 hours a day, depending on the time of year (more in summer, less in winter). My 190 watts of solar and two AGM golf carts never drop below 12.4, so I easily run the fridge. Bob

Willy · Apr 9, 2012

A lot of the compressor coolers can operate off both 12/24 v AND 115v. Even if it's a straight DC cooler, one can buy the 12v (Koolatron style) transformer. My Waaco can be easily picked up and moved anywhere I desire.. long as I don't stuff too much beer in it and wreck my back even more. ..Willy.

DARKLINKS614 · Apr 11, 2012

So a 200 amp alternator may not be a good idea? I link the 6 volts to each other and make a  12 but each battery is rate for 225 amp hours each so I well get 450 total and run at 12 v running them as one big 12 volt battery right?

DARKLINKS614 · Apr 11, 2012

As for the coolers I am look at them now and hand wrote off the idea due to power needs. I even bought a 7 day coller to use not I am rethinking a 12 volt cooler. I and swing 24 amps a lot easier then 150 amps over 24 hours

SoulRaven · Apr 12, 2012

Running anything but the starer battery off the alternator is not the best idea... as for the two 6V batteries, tie then to get 12V's with 200 amps... In tieing two 6V in serial you make 12V with the same amps, tie them in parallel gives 6V and double the amps... here is a good link to get info... http://www.solarrvpanels.com/index.php/wiring-rv-batteries-properly/

DARKLINKS614 said:
So a 200 amp alternator may not be a good idea? I link the 6 volts to each other and make a  12 but each battery is rate for 225 amp hours each so I well get 450 total and run at 12 v running them as one big 12 volt battery right?

ped · Apr 12, 2012

Ped I know through experience that arguing with you is like arguing with a tree... I do not talk of things by reading info, my experience is real world and I don't pull punches when I speak of things that just don't work in the field if you don't have a serious electrical set-up... So those that want to follow your advise are more than welcome... I firmly stand by my advise though, and want to see those starting out and already in the field save money and be successful...

lol. Quite telling about your electric "knowledge" and "skills" isn't it. <IMG border=0 align=absMiddle src="https://vanlivingforum.com/images/boards/smilies/rolleyes.gif"> <IMG border=0 hspace=0 alt="" align=baseline src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5112/7070566815_5365a32ebe_z.jpg"> After :52 seconds..... <IMG border=0 hspace=0 alt="" align=baseline src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7104/6924488770_d39916a42c_z.jpg"> Here's your "advice" <IMG border=0 hspace=0 alt="" align=baseline src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7219/6924514464_ffc5ed496e_z.jpg"> 12 amps and 20 minutes to heat soup. My 700W microwave takes 2 minutes and 2.38 amps measured.....on a $80 inverter and $200 worth of batteries...... I mean how ever do I get by in the "real world" especially with my $20 charge controller and $150 solar panels. <IMG border=0 align=absMiddle src="https://vanlivingforum.com/images/boards/smilies/rofl.gif">

You will want a pure sine wave inverter to use one. I tried running one off a Coleman 2000 watt inverter. It took 6 minutes to cook a bag of microwave popcorn, and most of the kernals never popped. I got rid of both the micro and Coleman.

So you got a pure sine wave and bought a 12v oven instead? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Mine cooks the same on shore power or a regular inverter. Weird.

I am also looking  at pure sine wave inverters. If  I get a microwave oven I am guessing I well need a 1500 watt model. It just keeps adding up lol. Going broke to live in a van...

*hint* *hint*  <IMG border=0 align=absMiddle src="https://vanlivingforum.com/images/boards/smilies/wink.gif">

judygirl · Apr 12, 2012

Question- I Have one deep cycle marine 6 Volt under the hood and one AGM sealed 6 Volt in the passenger seat well - both for house power. I want to add 190 Amps of solar panels to keep me off grid for weeks at a time. (will be in remote campground for 5 months). Should I replace the marine battery at this point so that I have a pair of AGMs that will charge equally? Both are new in December 2012- can I use the marine in some other capacity?  or perhaps add one more marine as well? And, do they need to be located in the same area to use with solar? Thanks for your help- Judy

Tykster · Apr 12, 2012

From my limited knowledge I would say get the batteries to match up since different types of batteries have different charging needs, and having 2 different types of batteries might could be compromising the health of one or both of them. So, yes, I'd replace the marine battery.

judygirl · Apr 12, 2012

So, I messed up the numbers on my earlier post, will try to fix- Tykster, I think you are right that I should change out the Marine.<div>This is the corrected info: Have one deep cycle marine 12 Volt under the hood (Duralast 24 MD-DL 685 marine cranking Amps,  85 Amp Hours, reserve capacity 14)<div>and one Sealed (AGM?) 12 Volt in the passenger seat well - both for house power. I can't lift this one out of the battery box to read info on it, but it is sealed and I believe it is AGM. 103BU Made in Mexico is the only text I can see.</div><div> </div><div>I want to add 190 Amps of solar panels to keep me off grid for weeks at a time. (will soon be in remote campground for 5 months).</div><div> </div><div>Should I replace the marine battery at this point so that I have a pair of AGMs that will charge equally? Both are new in December 2012- can I use the marine in some other capacity?  or perhaps add one more marine as well? If they are mixed, will the controller be able to regulate the charge? Will 190 watts total solar power be enough to keep both topped off in real time? Right now, on shore power, the battery charger/coverter goes on a number of times a day and they never seem to be reduced by much- hope solar will do the same</div><div> </div><div>I run Macbook6,1, rarely the Quasar convection oven, refrig is Norkold el/lp, have Igloo  icemaker115V 60 hz, 1Ph, 1.9 A High side 290Psig Low side 88Psig.</div><div>1Cup Coffee maker-800 W 2-3 minutes. </div><div>All seldom used.</div><div> </div><div>I have a 1500 W Coleman mod. sine wave inverter I would use to power those appliances.</div><div> </div><div>And, do the batteries need to be located in the same area to use with solar? ie, both at passenger seat. Thanks for your help-  Judy  </div></div>

Willy · Apr 12, 2012

You can buy solar charge controllers that are capable of metering a charge to separate battery banks. Why not dedicate your loads? Have one battery used solely by the inverter and the other for lighting 'n such? That's kinda what I do. My AGM is only used for the fridge and my 2 deep cycle  wet cell batteries are used for everything else.  I have 2 charge controllers, 1 going to the gel cell and the other going to the wet cells, being supplied by the same solar. The wet cells are also, via a solid state battery isolator, charged by the alternator. I'm debating hooking up an emergency starter solenoid that would bypass the voltage regulator in case I ever have to 'jump start' my truck (if the starter battery goes dead). ..Willy.

akrvbob · Apr 12, 2012

Judygirl, I also have 190 watts of solar and was at  remote campground for 5 months as a campground host. I don't know where you are going to be, but where I was at i the Sierras there were so many trees i couldn't get any solar power. I had to run my Honda gen for power. The company assigned me a site as campground host and I couldn't change. Since you will be remote, you probably won't have  internet or cell, so your time on the computer will be limited. Also, I found I was very busy and so I had very minimal power needs. Your power use is modest except for the oven and coffee maker. If I were you I would look for alternatives. I might suggest minimum power use and trying to get by for this summer and buying a new battery bank next winter. Have you used the Coleman inverter with the oven and coffee maker? Sometimes they are fussy about the quality of power and won't work so well with cheap MSW inverters. Running those large items is going to mean a large gauge cable for the batteries and inverter. I suggest 2 gauge. The shorter the run between batterie the better. Can you put them both down into the passenger floor area? Bottom line: if you are going to spend the money for the solar, spend more to get an equally good battery bank. What you have now is cheap, cobbled together, and an unknown quantity. If you can afford it, replace them now, if not, see if they get you by for the summer and replace them next winter. Bob

Van deep cycle AGM vs WET cells ? ? ?

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