Van burns, suspected propane fire.

[Duck]

http://globalnews.ca/news/1018243/propane-heater-may-have-started-a-fire-in-east-vancouve/

 

[WheelEstate USA]

Sad, for sure, but a good reminder for others.
Folks, please, use caution no matter how you heat your space :heart:

I've thought about this sort of tragedy happening (to anyone). Many van/rv people have no backing from supportive family and are basically alone in (what some consider) unsavory lifestyle.

So, I wondered what, if anything, this tribe would/could do for one of our own here?? I know we would all be supportive in our posts, but what sort action would we be able to muster??
Just a thought.

 

[Duck]

Sad, for sure, but a good reminder for others.
Folks, please, use caution no matter how you heat your space :heart:

I've thought about this sort of tragedy happening (to anyone). Many van/rv people have no backing from supportive family and are basically alone in (what some consider) unsavory lifestyle.

So, I wondered what, if anything, this tribe would/could do for one of our own here?? I know we would all be supportive in our posts, but what sort action would we be able to muster??
Just a thought.

Not sure about after the fact, but proper safety and preparation can prevent these incidents.
I'm no expert, but I have a reasonable understanding of what's involved, and sources for much more affordable parts(for example propane hoses that are 250$ each at a retail store and only available in some preset lengths are available for about 1/3 the cost in exact custom lengths.).
I'm happy to help with putting things together for people who are passing through, though of course I won't actually do the installation myself, or accept money for it(liability issues).
Working together to stay safe is easier than working together after the fact.
Plus, incidents like this cause crackdowns on everyone. It happened to the liveaboard boats, and it'll happen to the vandwellers too someday. Imagine if the van had exploded and damaged someone who owned land's property or injured them.



It's one of the reasons propane safety is so important.
On a boat the MINIMUM requirements are:
1. externally mounted tank, not mounted above or near any vents that lead into the boat. Or mounted in a fully sealed locker with overboard vent at the bottom.
2. one single run of hose all the way from regulator to each appliance, properly sealed where it passes through the hull.
3. No extra connections inside boat.
Any time a hose passes through a bulkhead it must be protected from chafing.
4. The tank must have a automatic shutoff solenoid mounted, with a control panel and propane sensor inside the boat.
No hard copper line is permitted anymore unless it was pre-existing. Any time a hose passes through a bulkhead it must be protected from chafing.


If these requirements can't be met, then a different fuel source is recommended, as the boat can't be insured.
Propane is heavier than air. Without an appropriate safety setup it can turn an entire vehicle into a bomb very easily. If it was a propane fire, I think he got off very easily.

Many boaters who don't want the risks, and expense of propane systems turn to alcohol stoves instead.
Alcohol fireplaces are now becoming a popular option, they even make small desktop models, and I've been thinking that one of these might be a viable cost effective and pretty alternative if securely mounted.
Some businesses are switching to large alcohol fireplaces because they don't need their own external venting and can just be vented straight into the building, with regular air circulation there's no issue. The fuel for these is cheap bought online. Way cheaper than the "marine" fuel, which I don't believe to be any better.

http://www.amazon.com/Nu-Flame-Irra...40NXW/ref=pd_sim_sbs_lg_3/182-0238803-5286053

 

[AltTransBikes]

And the absolute necessity insuring bedding or any flammable material cannot come in contact with or too close to the heat source. Extra care is needed in tight quarters.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

the good news is that no one got hurt in this incident, he is in Vancouver which has a pretty good safety net for anyone that is homeless. I guess the worry would be his dog and of course I am sure he is worried about his van hopefully it is insured.

Here is a cheap tip for covering your propane lines if they go through bulkheads or floors. I have the factory made rubber lines in my van and I used an old garden hose, the green kind found thrown out in every shed. I sliced it on one side worked the propane line in, fits perfect inside and it stays closed up nice and tight, gives an extra layer of protection. I covered the whole length

 

[Donedirtcheap]

Hopefully the offender is able to regroup and get another place to stay. Thank god no one was killed in that mess.

 

[Duck]

the good news is that no one got hurt in this incident, he is in Vancouver which has a pretty good safety net for anyone that is homeless. I guess the worry would be his dog and of course I am sure he is worried about his van hopefully it is insured.

Here is a cheap tip for covering your propane lines if they go through bulkheads or floors. I have the factory made rubber lines in my van and I used an old garden hose, the green kind found thrown out in every shed. I sliced it on one side worked the propane line in, fits perfect inside and it stays closed up nice and tight, gives an extra layer of protection. I covered the whole length

He was injured and taken to hospital I think, hopefully he recovers soon.
I strongly suspect the city will respond to this somehow in a way that won't be fun(probably increased enforcement and harassment to make it unappealing to live in van). With more Vandwellers here, and people even getting their names and faces in the paper living this way like these two:
http://metronews.ca/news/vancouver/414003/vancouver-man-to-live-in-van-for-one-year/
http://www.vanyear.com/
It's only a matter of time now.
Worse. they're even explaining how and where they do it, The same thing happened to the live-aboards, and the crackdown is getting worse, it's why there are so few left now.

I've done projects on documenting the liveaboards, but we worked very hard to find a way we could talk about things and show our spaces without revealing anything that could be used to track anyone involved down. Location, identity, anything showing the outside of the boat etc were all avoided. Within the boat community people are quite close mouthed about living aboard. Tips and tricks for getting space, and staying undetected are shared in person only for the most part, or at least quite privately.



I think we have very different views of the safety nets available here, I think it's everyone for them self here. A lot of competition for what safety or comfort might be available.

I doubt he'd be carrying comprehensive insurance, liability only here is 1500$+ a year without any long term safe driver discounts. Comprehensive adds a significant increase.

Another couple of good ways to do it is to take a piece of the split corrugated tubing for electrical wiring and run it around the hole through the bulkhead, this protects the whole bundle, by rounding over the sharp edge instead of wrapping the wire.
Since the holes should often be sealed at least in boats they often center the hose, and fill the surrounding with a mold/mildew resistant silicone and let it set.

---

I think that came out grumpier than I expected, but they are serious issues. Once they start cracking down, it's so hard to stop the tide, and every increased bit of enforcement adds incentive for them to add another, and then other cities and municipalities follow along and add the same rules.
I do feel badly for the guy who was injured, and I hope him and his dog find an ok place after he gets out of the hospital. I do even think that it's important to document and share the different ways in which we live too, and I hope that the two I linked enjoy their time living this way.
I'm mostly just anxious as I'm making the transition from a 4'x8' living space to a van that the rules and enforcement in a place that right now is pretty decent will change as I saw with the live-aboards, anchoring is being allowed in fewer and fewer places, especially without high fees. Usually it's something like this that triggers it, combined with publicity about living this way to bring it to the attention of the powers that be. Caution is so important

 

[flying kurbmaster]

Hi Duck I have been going to Vancouver for at least 35 years lived there for 12,, six as a liveaboard. I sold my boat in 1994 almost twenty years ago. At that time they were cracking down on liveaboards and you weren't allowed to anchor in places like false creek, coal harbor for more then a day or two and this was strictly enforced especially around expo 86. There were always ways around it, I lived aboard at Government docks at Granville Island, Coal harbor, Mosquito creek and under the 2nd Narrows. Every once in a while the authorities would ruffle their power but it soon died down and life went on as I see is still going on.
Over the last few years I have noticed that a lot of liveaboards are anchoring overtly in false creek and on a trip on the skytrain out to Burnaby I could not believe the number of people so called stealth living in campers and vans on industrial back streets. I was only viewing this from the window of the skytrain so I can only imagine how many are out there. The beauty of Vancouver though I reckon with all those lovely back alleys that surely it would be easy enough to find someone that would rent out there parking space for a minimal fee. Boats may have to lay low for a while until the media storm passes.

 

[Stargazer]

Bindi&us,

Your question of what real support could we give a victim of this sort of disaster has me really thinking. What would I do? What would I be willing to do? So many questions/ifs/ands/buts. Just thinking out loud...most of us have very little to share, including space. My van bed is 30"'x 68". The open floor space is even smaller! Better yet, would it be wise to invite a male I do not know, nobody else knows, a total stranger, to stay with me, a solo female? I do have a 15' TT, parked in an RV park. Again, same questions and space issues. Would I drive 2500 miles, one way, to pick him up and bring him back here? For how long? Or send him a plane ticket? Maybe just money? How much?

I like to think I would help, but how?

Everybody?? What could we do? Words are cheap, intentions are honorable but action is what he needs.

 

[WheelEstate USA]

Bindi&us,

Your question of what real support could we give a victim of this sort of disaster has me really thinking. What would I do? What would I be willing to do? So many questions/ifs/ands/buts. Just thinking out loud...most of us have very little to share, including space. My van bed is 30"'x 68". The open floor space is even smaller! Better yet, would it be wise to invite a male I do not know, nobody else knows, a total stranger, to stay with me, a solo female? I do have a 15' TT, parked in an RV park. Again, same questions and space issues. Would I drive 2500 miles, one way, to pick him up and bring him back here? For how long? Or send him a plane ticket? Maybe just money? How much?

I like to think I would help, but how?

Everybody?? What could we do? Words are cheap, intentions are honorable but action is what he needs.

We have the same concerns, but compassion beckons the question. I wish we (Margie & Jay) could say we could provide safe haven if you reached out, but what could we do realistically??
We can put someone up on our couch, but that would only be temporary, as would be sharing what we have. It would have to have been someone near us and trust definitely enters the equation if the person is an online acquaintance.

Yet, we feel the need to help in some way when disaster strikes.
Having little still makes it hard to cope with that need in some of us.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

you guys are making a lot of assumptions here, If my van were to burn tomorrow I would be without a van and a few things. If you want to help somebody, I am sure there are plenty right next door to you.

 

[Duck]

Not trying to hyjack the thread away. I've used boat stoves before, many years ago and i remember that they were difficult to cook on because the heat just didn't get very hot. So when I outfitted my boat I used butane, canned, for a heat source. which I found slightly hotter. So here is my question. does any one have any experiance with heating a van with a alcohol style heater? I know that the butane burns real clean so you don't smell it, but like anything that burns it produces carbondioxide so you have to make sure you haved to crack a window for ventilation.

Sorry, do you mean alcohol boat stoves, or propane?
Butane's danger is more to do with carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide we are fortunately able to detect naturally.
Alcohol is definitely much cooler burning, but some of the new fireplaces are quite interesting. I'm looking at the same thing as well, one of the big appeals is that they are much safer, without the risks of carbon monoxide that come with propane burning. They do still produce moisture however.

From what I've read, it looks as though some hotels are starting to use them too as inserts, because they don't require external venting($$).

In the end, I think so long as it produces enough BTUs(even if you burn more liters of alcohol to get there) per hour, it'll be fine.
It's like the old joke about a pound of feathers or a pound of rocks being heavier.