The Politics of Solar

[Whitey]

This article refers to sticks and bricks but still interesting:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/solar-panels-nevada-1.3765962

 

[highdesertranger]

it's going to be very hard for this thread not to get political. please be careful with your comments. highdesertranger

 

[SternWake]

All sorts of power company shenanigans go on when their profits are at stake. Here in san diego they want to charge 50K$ to set up a system whose parts would equal less than 12K dollars, and all the credits people expect to get, remain expected and never realized. The installers take a huge cut of the federal incentives and the Tax breaks promised, are illusions.

Replace 'power company', with any sort of service and the net result is no, to only slow progress.


Such as the water company.
Due to drought, we are asking customers to ration their water use.
Due to restricted water use, we have to increase price of water.
We no longer need to ration water, but water prices will need to increase again.

Fuel Standards: due to less gasoline tax being collected by states to fix infrastructure because of more efficient vehicles and carpooling and less people driving.... we need to start taxing people by how much they drive instead.

The Power grid is kind of like a big battery, accepting extra consumer solar juice so their generators do not have to burn as much fuel, and can then ramp back up when the sun sets. Although they save money on fuel, it is not enough to fill exec's pockets to overflowing of the good old days, so figure out ways to continue fisting the Anus of the taxpaying consumer, there is money up there!

If the technology existed and could be implemented easily, to store everything a large solar field could make and then power everything overnight, besides airplanes, we would not have to burn fossil fuels anymore.
Good for planet earth, bad for those who have lots of money on planet earth as it now exists.

Glad I do not have children, and the kids today are not being trained for, and have no idea how ****** their future is.

Hello Newborn child, Welcome to the United states. you owe the government 55K dollars that they already spent for you, get to work you consumer monkey wage slave.

 

[TrainChaser]

Just put the solar on your van roof and make 'em catch up with you.

 

[BradKW]

I always was curious about the energy buy-back programs where utilities pay the customer for solar or wind production that gets dumped back into the grid. I assumed that the utility payed less than market price and then re-sold that electricity elsewhere...I've read about incredibly long transmission lines, so it seemed reasonable that a utility could alway find a buy for the "extra" power, even if it was in a different state.

That was the only model that made sense to me, but perhaps I didn't consider that the buyback had it's roots in politics, not business. So if it's actually the case where utilities are not only not making money on energy purchased from consumers, but they are actually losing net profit as a result, I can certainly see there being a sound argument against buy-back. After all, they're the ones who maintain a huge grid infrastructure. It's not like anyone is making solar illegal to install in one's home.

If politicians want to do something positive, they should focus on helping make solar more affordable I'd think.

 

[Varmint]

Had a guy in residential construction tell me that, if you install solar, you HAD to tie it into the grid so the power companies could use the excess power you produce. I told him that, regardless of where he got such information, that not only would I refuse to believe it, I also will not comply. The simple solution to this, I told him, is not to have AC capability in my installation, which will also render such stupidity moot. I have no intention of installing solar, water, or wind and having myself hooked to the grid, as one of the reasons I want these things is that, in case something happens to the grid, I'll be isolated and therefore protected from it (theoretically). A small 12 or 24-volt system like we use in van or rv living eliminates the need for AC usage. Those who wish to continue use of AC appliances can do what they want. To me, this is just another reason to pursue a mobile lifestyle.

 

[GotSmart]

It is the politics of power.  The whale oil companies had a similar reaction with the introduction of crude oil products, Kerosene and natural gas.  Then electricity.   

Today power is produced by powerful interests, Hydroelectric, coal, geothermal.  Wind, and solar are the big problems.  People can now generate their own power by wind or solar, and actually become free of the big guys.  

The ones who have invested billions in the power grid are reluctant to allow usage of their system to a homeowner who can recover the initial investment in as few as 8 years.  Then use  the system for free.  

This will be interesting watching how this battle will work.  

In the 70's there was a saying.  Ass, Gas, or Grass. Nobody Rides For Free. 

We live in interesting times indeed.

 

[LeeRevell]

Being a resident in a hurricane prone area, I do have a small solar system for my S&B home, in case of power outtage. It remains completely separate from the grid system. My needs during an emergency are fairly small, comparable to van use. I have a genset to keep the freezer cold during a power outtage.
I will never use a "grid tie system".

 

[blars]

Grid tie inverters require incoming AC to synchronize with and to avoid back-feeding downed power lines.

 

[jimindenver]

I spoke to a person named Brian on a plane ride home last year. He claimed to be a exec of Excell. His take was solar users don't pay their share of the maintenance when they make more power than they need. They needed to collect at least $60 to cover their cost and that solar users need to be paying a fee to cover their part. I asked what about the profit they make by selling the free electricity. He didn't want to discuss that and they never will either.

So I told him of how I use my hybrid system. It covers the power needs during the day and a bank covers at night. No grid tie except a automatic charger that would come on in the event the solar didn't keep up. In good weather the grid use would be zero and they wouldn't have to worry about selling off that free power the system produces. He didn't think that was the answer either. I would become a extreme low power user and they want to charge them a fee now that they have convinced the public it was ok to do it to solar users.

 

[ArtW]

of course not, it doesn't line his pockets
The power companies are gonna look really stupid if they alienate all the solar folks out there, to the point there are so many off grid folks, being on grid makes no sense

It's al;ways interesting to see the level of 'entitled' that occurs when folks are used to getting something, and suddenly, aren't
What's 'my fair share' of the cost of a grid I supply power to?
What's my 'fair share' of a grid I'm not connected to?

 

[jimindenver]

I wouldn't be able to get enough panel up to run everything. I could get enough up to run everything but the furnace and A/C. Have a efficient fridge and most the rest is low power or short term loads. I use the solar ovens here now, the lights are LED, the TV's are flat screens, really the trailers system could handle everything but the furnace and A/C. Even there the little A/C the system does run would help.

From a consumer point of view it cost a lot of money to save the money. You not only have to build the systems but also a back up system as well. Most people live in a situation that a traditional build and cheap grid power makes more sense. A truly off grid home is now more possible with PV solar added to the advancements in passive solar, it would be easy to do. Like my trailer you would rarely know it was off grid.

 

[ArtW]

I guess it depends how much power you need, a 100 watt kit isn't really that expensive, but most use far more than that
OTOH, we have a store here in Colorado county, TX that is totally off grid, and they are always happy to help others get off grid, too
the trouble is, if you live in a municipality, often code requires you be 'on grid'

 

[jimindenver]

Knowing what you can do where you live before hand is as important as knowing your needs.

 

[TrainChaser]

I read some years ago (when selling extra to the power company was a new thing) where a proponent of solar said that if you felt the overwhelming need to have to sell power, it was probably going to bite you in the buttocks.  He said if you want solar, just do what you need to do for yourself, and stop thinking that other people (or companies) need to pay you to do it. 

At that time, solar was more expensive than it is now, and he pointed out how stupid it would be to have to pay the costs to have extra solar just so you could sell it.  He suggested that people not let greed get in the way of common sense.

 

[Suanne]

It sounds like how each state's utility companies reacts to solar power varies a lot.  In WA State, the legislature actively provides its citizens with financial incentives.  Here is my experience.

We have some solar at our sticks-and-bricks. WA State's incentives for using alternative power sources is managed locally by each of the utility companies.  These are last year's and this year's rates per kWh produced (whether sent into the grid, or not):

If your original certified incentive rate was:             Your 2015-2016 incentive rate is:
$.12 (wind)                                                                         $.112
$.15 (solar manufactured out of state)                                   $.140
$.15 (anaerobic digestor)                                                      $.140
$.18 (solar with a WA-made inverter)                                     $.168
$.36 (solar with WA-made modules)                                       $.336
$.54 (solar with WA-made modules and inverter)                     $.504

The incentive rate went down this year because there are not enough state funds.  That is, state law limits [the utility company's] annual payments under this program to .5% of our taxable power sales ..."  There's just too many utility customers using alternative power sources this year to maintain the old incentive rate.

Even tho' there's a sight reduction in the amount of money we made, I'm glad more WA residents are going with alternative energy sources.

If interested, I did an analysis of our 3.36 kW array one full year after install here http://suannejohn.blogspot.com/2014/05/solar-panels-one-year-later.html

Suanne