SternWake
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Ticklebellly
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Gary68 said:
Me too. Forums do have to have someone in charge, else they fail and/or fall into chaos. I don't have to take sides or make any judgments with that attitude.
RV-Hopeful
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I agree ...akrvbob said:
GotSmart
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RV-Hopeful said:
The problem is that Bob is doing the most attacking and insulting of those that contribute most. We are the community members also. The difference information makes is between being goat herders, or controling the lightening.
It is a case of DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO.
Until he lets the moderators do their job, and he admits that he is capible of making mistakes, those that have the knowlege to help people build a system or home properly the first time, will continue to leave. CRVL will consists of people struggling to keep the lights on, when the information on how to control the ligtning is one person away.
All that will be left are the ones that give dangerous opinions disguised as facts.
This is meant as an honest assesment, not as an attack.
Putts
Well-known member
Seems to me one of the big problems is that the experts probably get tired of answering the same questions over and over again when the information is here if one searches for it.
I read a science fiction book long ago that talked about the biggest problem of the information age. It's not hard to rack up a lot of data when so many people contribute, the problem is finding the data after the fact.
I'm a pretty good searcher, but even for me it's hard to find the exact bits needed. For those that are not as computer literate, it's likely damned hard.
With the structure of forums being what it is, this problem is not going to go away...it's the nature of the beast.
The solution that's easy to say, and very hard to do, is for the experts to write primers on subject to keep the info in one, or relatively few, places. Bob, of course, tries to do this in his blog, but effective content for people to do what gets done here needs to be more comprehensive. He does a great job (really, a great job) of providing the basics and giving a vision for how to approach this lifestyle, but he alone can't provide the next, more detailed, step-by-step instructions...the complexity expands exponentially after those first basic concepts.
So n00bs in need who don't have search chops end up asking the same questions over and over, and the experts like SternWake, who write reams of quality content, feel like they're talking into a black hole of need as they try to help. I'm sure it's frustrating as hell.
What to do?
In other forums I frequent, one solution that has cropped up is for people to write reference and indexing threads where they point to previous posts on a certain topic. A lot of times I've seen folks write about a particular topic and then as the conversation goes on and more information in-fills the thread, they will add links to posts within that thread to the initial post. These threads get stickied and become references of a kind. The technical problem we have here is the edit window. Members who curate the stickie on a topic must be able to go back and edit the initial post to add and manage the links. I've noticed the stickies here get a little long in the tooth and end up not being as good a resource as they could be because the OP can't go back and update it.
I think if we were able to make the needed changes to allow the OP of a thread to edit the initial post on an ongoing basis (regardless of whether it's stickied or not), we might find that experts could manage their content a little better and provide a more readily accessible body of work.
If this could be done, the experts will be able to simply provide a link to the appropriate thread/s for n00bs to dive into before asking specific questions about their situation.
Without this feature around here, I observe far too many relatively short threads asking very similar questions that are peppered all over the place. The information here is rather diffuse and choppy currently, IMO.
I read a science fiction book long ago that talked about the biggest problem of the information age. It's not hard to rack up a lot of data when so many people contribute, the problem is finding the data after the fact.
I'm a pretty good searcher, but even for me it's hard to find the exact bits needed. For those that are not as computer literate, it's likely damned hard.
With the structure of forums being what it is, this problem is not going to go away...it's the nature of the beast.
The solution that's easy to say, and very hard to do, is for the experts to write primers on subject to keep the info in one, or relatively few, places. Bob, of course, tries to do this in his blog, but effective content for people to do what gets done here needs to be more comprehensive. He does a great job (really, a great job) of providing the basics and giving a vision for how to approach this lifestyle, but he alone can't provide the next, more detailed, step-by-step instructions...the complexity expands exponentially after those first basic concepts.
So n00bs in need who don't have search chops end up asking the same questions over and over, and the experts like SternWake, who write reams of quality content, feel like they're talking into a black hole of need as they try to help. I'm sure it's frustrating as hell.
What to do?
In other forums I frequent, one solution that has cropped up is for people to write reference and indexing threads where they point to previous posts on a certain topic. A lot of times I've seen folks write about a particular topic and then as the conversation goes on and more information in-fills the thread, they will add links to posts within that thread to the initial post. These threads get stickied and become references of a kind. The technical problem we have here is the edit window. Members who curate the stickie on a topic must be able to go back and edit the initial post to add and manage the links. I've noticed the stickies here get a little long in the tooth and end up not being as good a resource as they could be because the OP can't go back and update it.
I think if we were able to make the needed changes to allow the OP of a thread to edit the initial post on an ongoing basis (regardless of whether it's stickied or not), we might find that experts could manage their content a little better and provide a more readily accessible body of work.
If this could be done, the experts will be able to simply provide a link to the appropriate thread/s for n00bs to dive into before asking specific questions about their situation.
Without this feature around here, I observe far too many relatively short threads asking very similar questions that are peppered all over the place. The information here is rather diffuse and choppy currently, IMO.
karl
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Bruised ego's and self righteous indignation are banned from my next life!
waldenbound
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I have an idea, my little 2 cents worth.
Set up a Wikipedia style section for the technical, how-to, step-by-step things. Then get the folk who are very knowledgable on that subject to collaborate and make up a CRVL-wiki on setting up solar, Internet, cabinetry and basic carpentry, ect.
Bob is the big vision guy. He can explain his vision for vehicle dwelling, but he could get some experts around him to explain the technical, step-by-step, explain-it-to-me-like-I'm-a-six-year-old stuff.
Set up a Wikipedia style section for the technical, how-to, step-by-step things. Then get the folk who are very knowledgable on that subject to collaborate and make up a CRVL-wiki on setting up solar, Internet, cabinetry and basic carpentry, ect.
Bob is the big vision guy. He can explain his vision for vehicle dwelling, but he could get some experts around him to explain the technical, step-by-step, explain-it-to-me-like-I'm-a-six-year-old stuff.
jimindenver
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May I never be so presumptuous as to think I am the end all of something or that the world will end should I leave it.
There are many well informed people here. I agree with a recently departed long term poster that what is really needed is the people on the road actually doing it to show what is possible and how to do it. We need the people that understand and know what to buy and how to hook it up. The thing is it can not come with the cost of expecting someone to have to tolerate aggressive behavior or have someone ask if you feel butt hurt. That is bullying. We need to respect each others time and effort just we want our own to be. It is wonderful that we do it differently because it presents options for those that are looking. Discussions as to why we differ need to be held in civil tones though.
The biggest reason is that those that we are here helping can be at their most vulnerable when they are asking for our help. They not only need the techy info but reassurance that things can be better. They need to feel the forum is a comfortable and welcoming place and you don't see it when there are rants and open conflict. Somethings just should not be public discussion such as the rants over deleted post. Of what benefit are those to those looking for help?
Sometimes the hardest thing about being part of a tribe/community/utopia is remembering that it is not just that someone came up with the idea but that we are what make it possible. It is us believing in it and accepting the concept in our actions, not what we expect from others. Those that stray may be admonished but it is that way in any tribe, it keeps the idea alive and lets people know what is acceptable if they do not have the common sense to understand it in the first place. Those that get it think I won't do that again, those that don't throw a temper tantrum because they can't have their way.
So we need to git off our high horses, put on a smile and help the people just as we have helped each other. This is the purpose, this is what people are looking for and they are not going to feel good about eating at a soup kitchen where they have to worry that the cook is going to throw a pan at them.
There are many well informed people here. I agree with a recently departed long term poster that what is really needed is the people on the road actually doing it to show what is possible and how to do it. We need the people that understand and know what to buy and how to hook it up. The thing is it can not come with the cost of expecting someone to have to tolerate aggressive behavior or have someone ask if you feel butt hurt. That is bullying. We need to respect each others time and effort just we want our own to be. It is wonderful that we do it differently because it presents options for those that are looking. Discussions as to why we differ need to be held in civil tones though.
The biggest reason is that those that we are here helping can be at their most vulnerable when they are asking for our help. They not only need the techy info but reassurance that things can be better. They need to feel the forum is a comfortable and welcoming place and you don't see it when there are rants and open conflict. Somethings just should not be public discussion such as the rants over deleted post. Of what benefit are those to those looking for help?
Sometimes the hardest thing about being part of a tribe/community/utopia is remembering that it is not just that someone came up with the idea but that we are what make it possible. It is us believing in it and accepting the concept in our actions, not what we expect from others. Those that stray may be admonished but it is that way in any tribe, it keeps the idea alive and lets people know what is acceptable if they do not have the common sense to understand it in the first place. Those that get it think I won't do that again, those that don't throw a temper tantrum because they can't have their way.
So we need to git off our high horses, put on a smile and help the people just as we have helped each other. This is the purpose, this is what people are looking for and they are not going to feel good about eating at a soup kitchen where they have to worry that the cook is going to throw a pan at them.
SternWake
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My post with a 'STFU' in it was not an attack on any person/ member here, although it has been portrayed as such.
In the thread where I used it, there were unsupportable comments, seemingly by those wishing the cheapest disposable possible solution, was also ultimately superior, and they had absolutely no data to back up such claims, only wishes and that disgusting and universal human trait, in that one needs to be 'right'.
They started posting incorrect statements about the more expensive option which, I negated with actual data, from actual tools and effort required to acquire such data, but this was seemingly ignored in the mindset that cheaper is not just only more than adequate, but actually superior.
I said prove it with actual tools effort and data to back up your hopes and wishes, or shut the F up.
That this was then portrayed as a personal emotional attack, and the entire post removed.
It was not.
I gave it a few days, realized just how much time I have spent over the years trying to help people here understand the electrical complexities of living off of 12vDC, how to get their money's worth from batteries, and not simply view everything as disposable 'Oh well throw it in a landfill and just buy a new one' type of mentality.
I am not a people person, I've often wondered why I have spent so much time trying to help strangers here, when in person, I would likely trying to be figuring out a way to extract myself from their presence, as I do in most social situations. I often wondered why I felt an obligation to jump in on threads with incomplete or misguided responses by those who do not really understand the subject on what they are giving advice on. My conclusions in this area do not do anything to help me like myself any more.
Incorrect and misleading info spouted as gospel by those with incorrect or incomplete understanding, is rife here. I see so much poor advice/ info given by those who do not understand, to those who understand much much less than they think they do or who are simply parroting the opinions of others, who do not understand, or are parrotting others or perhaps me, imprecisely, in a manner which is not beneficial to the newbie reader trying to comprehend.
Or just plain bullshit spouting in the need to feel important or superior to another.
It was starting to feel like an unpaid job, and then, getting frustrated at unsupportable claims by those without data or the tools or experience to back up their wishes, I say prove it, or STFU. I felt these people were misleading those who would gladly jump on the 'cheap and disposable and likely unreliable, is better than what is known to be efficient, that which is known and proven to dependable by those with actual experience and tools and data. The better option, which is my opinion, but that which I could back up with data and facts and experience, just happens to be initially more expensive but likely much cheaper and more reliable in the long run.
Any obligation I felt evaporated in those days after Bob deleted my entire 'emotional' post and portrayed it as an attack on another member. My intended attack was on unsupportable claims by those unwilling or unable to gather actual data to support those claims. I see now that is has at least caused, or at least contributed to one member to go through actual effort of accruing actual data.
I no longer wish to contribute to Bob's forum. His one response says he has great respect for me. His actions proved the opposite. I felt extremely disrespected, and after stewing a few days without responding, decided it was time to go.
Fully realizing the hypocrisy in the following statement, We live in a society where people are seemingly trained to look for reasons to be indignant, and then revelling in this fabricated hypersensitive indignation, imagining some utopia where this should be like this, and that should be like that, and everyone should feel safe and coddled and protected, or out come the protest banners and chants of 'hey hey!, ho ho! and give me what I want because the world revolves around me, and i like to be the center of attention, then watch me go polish my 'participation trophies'
I am disgusted with political correctness, the hyper sensitivity, and it is getting worse as people seek new ways to fabricate indignation that they can feed upon, revel within, and draw attention to themselves over.
Life ain't fair. This should be lesson number one in life. Learn it, get on with it. Instead we have the 'Hey hey, ho ho, shouted into a camera, and legions of people who got an addictive serotonin blast when their indignation centers were aroused by such actions, and want to feel that drug's effects again and again.
My participation an all forums is now curtailed, not just here, it is ended here. I will not be wasting any of what time I have left trying to educate others on things I have a good to great understanding of, not without selfish renumeration.
So thank you Bob. Your insulting and disrespectful action, helped me to realize just how much of my time I have wasted. Not that my repetitive and long responses were not helpful to others, but that it was time that was much better being spent to improve myself and my situation and my ability to enjoy that which I find enjoyable or rewarding in the time I have left.
I will get more done, I will ride more waves, have more numerous and more beneficial experiences in whatever time I have left on this highly disrespected planet, and will not be wasting them typing online, trying to help strangers, anymore.
I've never really felt part of the tribe, any tribe, not even those with whom I have a lot in common, and that is not going to change. I just do not like humans very much. The more entitled the human, the more self important they are, the more they need to draw attention to themselves, the more I dislike them. There is so much of human behavior/conditioning/society that I absolutely despise. I have been unable to change that, and will no longer bother to try.
There are a few of you I would, and will go out of my way to meet or to help, if I can, but the days where I spend hours typing on this forum, or any forum, trying to spread knowledge, or counteract bad information spouted by those without the ability or experience to understand, are over.
In the thread where I used it, there were unsupportable comments, seemingly by those wishing the cheapest disposable possible solution, was also ultimately superior, and they had absolutely no data to back up such claims, only wishes and that disgusting and universal human trait, in that one needs to be 'right'.
They started posting incorrect statements about the more expensive option which, I negated with actual data, from actual tools and effort required to acquire such data, but this was seemingly ignored in the mindset that cheaper is not just only more than adequate, but actually superior.
I said prove it with actual tools effort and data to back up your hopes and wishes, or shut the F up.
That this was then portrayed as a personal emotional attack, and the entire post removed.
It was not.
I gave it a few days, realized just how much time I have spent over the years trying to help people here understand the electrical complexities of living off of 12vDC, how to get their money's worth from batteries, and not simply view everything as disposable 'Oh well throw it in a landfill and just buy a new one' type of mentality.
I am not a people person, I've often wondered why I have spent so much time trying to help strangers here, when in person, I would likely trying to be figuring out a way to extract myself from their presence, as I do in most social situations. I often wondered why I felt an obligation to jump in on threads with incomplete or misguided responses by those who do not really understand the subject on what they are giving advice on. My conclusions in this area do not do anything to help me like myself any more.
Incorrect and misleading info spouted as gospel by those with incorrect or incomplete understanding, is rife here. I see so much poor advice/ info given by those who do not understand, to those who understand much much less than they think they do or who are simply parroting the opinions of others, who do not understand, or are parrotting others or perhaps me, imprecisely, in a manner which is not beneficial to the newbie reader trying to comprehend.
Or just plain bullshit spouting in the need to feel important or superior to another.
It was starting to feel like an unpaid job, and then, getting frustrated at unsupportable claims by those without data or the tools or experience to back up their wishes, I say prove it, or STFU. I felt these people were misleading those who would gladly jump on the 'cheap and disposable and likely unreliable, is better than what is known to be efficient, that which is known and proven to dependable by those with actual experience and tools and data. The better option, which is my opinion, but that which I could back up with data and facts and experience, just happens to be initially more expensive but likely much cheaper and more reliable in the long run.
Any obligation I felt evaporated in those days after Bob deleted my entire 'emotional' post and portrayed it as an attack on another member. My intended attack was on unsupportable claims by those unwilling or unable to gather actual data to support those claims. I see now that is has at least caused, or at least contributed to one member to go through actual effort of accruing actual data.
I no longer wish to contribute to Bob's forum. His one response says he has great respect for me. His actions proved the opposite. I felt extremely disrespected, and after stewing a few days without responding, decided it was time to go.
Fully realizing the hypocrisy in the following statement, We live in a society where people are seemingly trained to look for reasons to be indignant, and then revelling in this fabricated hypersensitive indignation, imagining some utopia where this should be like this, and that should be like that, and everyone should feel safe and coddled and protected, or out come the protest banners and chants of 'hey hey!, ho ho! and give me what I want because the world revolves around me, and i like to be the center of attention, then watch me go polish my 'participation trophies'
I am disgusted with political correctness, the hyper sensitivity, and it is getting worse as people seek new ways to fabricate indignation that they can feed upon, revel within, and draw attention to themselves over.
Life ain't fair. This should be lesson number one in life. Learn it, get on with it. Instead we have the 'Hey hey, ho ho, shouted into a camera, and legions of people who got an addictive serotonin blast when their indignation centers were aroused by such actions, and want to feel that drug's effects again and again.
My participation an all forums is now curtailed, not just here, it is ended here. I will not be wasting any of what time I have left trying to educate others on things I have a good to great understanding of, not without selfish renumeration.
So thank you Bob. Your insulting and disrespectful action, helped me to realize just how much of my time I have wasted. Not that my repetitive and long responses were not helpful to others, but that it was time that was much better being spent to improve myself and my situation and my ability to enjoy that which I find enjoyable or rewarding in the time I have left.
I will get more done, I will ride more waves, have more numerous and more beneficial experiences in whatever time I have left on this highly disrespected planet, and will not be wasting them typing online, trying to help strangers, anymore.
I've never really felt part of the tribe, any tribe, not even those with whom I have a lot in common, and that is not going to change. I just do not like humans very much. The more entitled the human, the more self important they are, the more they need to draw attention to themselves, the more I dislike them. There is so much of human behavior/conditioning/society that I absolutely despise. I have been unable to change that, and will no longer bother to try.
There are a few of you I would, and will go out of my way to meet or to help, if I can, but the days where I spend hours typing on this forum, or any forum, trying to spread knowledge, or counteract bad information spouted by those without the ability or experience to understand, are over.
FinallyFree
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Thank you SternWake. You will be greatly missed!
Sternwake, I am on moderation so you may or may not see this post, but you hit the nail squarely on the head. People look for a reason to have their feelings hurt.
Take Care and best wishes.
Moderator please close this thread.
Take Care and best wishes.
Moderator please close this thread.
Scott7022
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Sternwake. I respect your decision and thanks for posting, such a concise explanation of your position. We didn't deserve it and you didn't owe it to anyone or the forum. But then from the short time I have read you, (I don't know you), this is your way of doing things. It speaks to the person you are. Ironic the both you and Bob are introverts to the extreme, and this has happened. The digital world does suck our time and we all know that time is the only "gold" in this life. I get you basically said "Step up or step off." That doesn't sound harsh right? In some neighbourhoods in North Philly those words would get you killed. It is all about the culture/education/wisdom of the audience. Personally, I will miss your counsel and bouncing problems with the system I designed as I learned a long time ago; "You can never be smart enough."
Enjoy life, my friend and know that your words of wisdom and advice will be around forever. Forums are archived so even if the forum crashes others will read you for years to come.
Enjoy life, my friend and know that your words of wisdom and advice will be around forever. Forums are archived so even if the forum crashes others will read you for years to come.
sassypickins
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Thank you, Sternwake, for being my guiding light in the electrical world. Sassy
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