Stealth Living with Dogs?

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gcal said:
I have never owned a dog in an apartment.  Always a house with a dog door and a fenced yard. People I know who have apartment dogs have little ones and they use pee pads. Do you want pee pads for 2 big dogs in your van?

The climate issue is not a small issue and neither is the space issue. If you think it is not a problem, try spending 16 hours a day in your closet for a week.

I believe I've said in each and every post I've made in this thread that climate control is a challenge.  If anyone has actual suggestions or solutions to that problem I hope to hear them.
My dog is large and inactive.  Couch potatoes come in all sizes (and species).  He has never used a pee pad but waits 'til I get home to let him out.  Whether his bed is in a house or in a van that's where he will be until I come home and pull out the ball or the leash and we go out to play or for a walk.  When we are hanging out at home he's either sacked out in his bed or curled up on the couch next to me. 
It's more about the dog's temperament than the living arrangement UNTIL IT COMES TO CLIMATE CONTROL.  I made a point to choose a pup with a low energy level and a non-clingy temperament.  I made this choice because I work full time.   I have cared for dogs with separation anxiety and didn't want to do that again.  The fact that we have a yard to play in makes my life easier but he really doesn't give a rat's behind. 
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
Putting a dog in a van or a kennel is not putting a dog in solitary confinement in a cell. If the owner wanted to, they can make it a negative thing that is akin to solitary confinement, but that is how the owner makes it. The kennel or a van, inanimate objects, aren't automatically doggie jail. It can be a good thing. I use kennels as one tool of many to promote good behavior and to manage their safety.

Leaving a dog alone for 16 hours isn't good. I'd be surprised if any here would think 16 hours alone is anything but unhealthy. A dog can go 8 hours without peeing- they are vikings at that; however, that should not be the norm. 8 hours every day is too much imo. Lots of people do that with their dogs, though. I used to, but not anymore. A long time ago I had a job that ended being a major time commitment. It meant leaving my dog in my apartment for 13 hours or more sometimes. Not cool. So I taught that dog to poo and pee in a boot tray. It would still hold the pee and poo as long as possible and would go only when it couldn't hold it anymore. I ended up sneaking the dog to work for a while before I quit and sued my boss. (I won, too!) After that I never took a job that would compromise my dog like that.

Dogs left alone tend to sleep. Not all dogs, but many. When the owner gets home, then it's game on. I see nothing harmful in that. Learning how to be alone, to be comfortable with one's self without anything to do, is a healthy thing. It isn't about being stimulated from dusk till dawn. (Which is a good movie btw.) Is two hours alone OK? I think so. Is 20 hours alone OK? I don't think so. Somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot.

When I hear, "Dogs need room to run," I often think, "That is a lazy way for a dog to get exercise." Not necessarily healthy, either. I know of several people who let their dog(s) run loose and chase game. I hate that. Hazing wildlife or livestock is not a healthy activity that promotes good behavior in dogs and it doesn't promote good relations with others. But I don't get onto them about it. I've met only one person whose dog got shot by the game warden for chasing deer. He didn't get mad about it because he knew that he was being lazy and allowing the dog to run around like a hoodlum. My dog occasionally runs around with dogs that chase game. She doesn't chase the game, but just runs around. The other dogs run out of sight being allowed all the room to run they want. Those guys think I'm too hard on my dog and not giving her what she needs. Yes, I'm in the minority there, but we all have our ideas of how to take care of a dog. I do what I think is best. And what I think is best results in no gunshots. No porcupine quills in the face. No smelly skunks. No snares. And my dog is much better behaved, which indicates to me that my dog is mentally healthier from limiting her room to run.

Some people's dogs come up missing for unknown reasons. Sometimes a rancher will shoot a dog hazing his cattle and leave the dead dog out in the field without telling the owner. Letting a dog run loose is good and healthy, but not without boundaries like in the example above. Not giving the dog mental exercise can be just as harmful as not giving physical exercise. Mental and physical exercise can be had even for dogs living in an apartment or a van.

If apartment living were so bad, New York City wouldn't have the dogs they do. As long as the owner does his/her part with exercise, then the dog does well. I don't have a fenced yard (well, currently I do, but usually don't) and my dog gets more than the exercise she needs most of the time. She is a Border Collie/pit bull mix. While she has mellowed out considerably the last few years, she wasn't always this way. She is a high-energy, high-drive dog. She works hard. I expect A LOT out of her, but she also gets to run and play a lot. Waaaaay more than most dogs.

Few things in life are absolute; we need to take things in context. Saying apartment/van living with a dog is not good doesn't make sense to me. It can be done, and is done all the time. Most dogs that are confined to smaller spaces aren't healthy, but that doesn't mean a small space is inherently, or even usually, harmful. That is all my opinion, though. Most would probably disagree with me on at least some of it. What I do in situations like that to justify my training methods is to compare my dog to that person's dog (if they have one). That strongly demonstrates to me that the choices I'm making result in positive behaviors in my dog and the choices the other owner is making is resulting in negative behaviors in their dog.

Heck, maybe I am truly wrong, but at least my dog is better for it.
 
I have read and re-read your post as well as the responses.  While it might be possible, IMHO it would be inadvisable in your particular situation.  RVs of any size get damned hot in the sun even in winter and leaving two dogs all day while you are at work would not be the best for them and you would more than likely get the Humane Society intervening.  A day care for two dogs would work but would cost more than you probably want to spend.
 
mockturtle said:
I have read and re-read your post as well as the responses.  While it might be possible, IMHO it would be inadvisable in your particular situation.  RVs of any size get damned hot in the sun even in winter and leaving two dogs all day while you are at work would not be the best for them and you would more than likely get the Humane Society intervening.  A day care for two dogs would work but would cost more than you probably want to spend.

Would need some serious climate control in the form of extensive insulation, AC with a remote temperature alarm (depending on the climate), or some such expensive thing. That would be easily doable with enough money especially if Azuca were to custom build a tiny house. A $40,000 tiny house would do the trick.

In my area doggie daycare would run at least $15/day per dog. $30 to $45 per dog per day for something more than a kennel, water, and potty breaks every 4 hours.

In the winter where I live heat is not an issue even in the remotest sense. It's freezing. Florida is hotter in the winter than it is in the summer in many parts of Montana. Depends on where Azuca lives.

In any case this is a great thread to get the insights of how people view dogs and their environments. I really like this one. It is good to have empathy and understanding for those around us even if we disagree.
 
Here is link that talks about the rules in each state: https://www.animallaw.info/topic/table-state-laws-protect-animals-left-parked-vehicles What I saw in the value of the list is that it does talk about "conditions" that become an issue. I did see one state, MN, that allowed someone to use "reasonable" force to get an animal out of a "deadly" situation.

It is really going to depend on the temperatures that you are going to be dealing with and where you'll be located as far as the laws. I have been in an entry level TT in very cold and very hot temps and it was a struggle, even with the insulation and heating system to keep the temp comfortable.

What temps are you looking at during the day? 75 or 105?
 
mayble said:
I believe I've said in each and every post I've made in this thread that climate control is a challenge.  If anyone has actual suggestions or solutions to that problem I hope to hear them.
My dog is large and inactive.  Couch potatoes come in all sizes (and species).  He has never used a pee pad but waits 'til I get home to let him out.  Whether his bed is in a house or in a van that's where he will be until I come home and pull out the ball or the leash and we go out to play or for a walk.  When we are hanging out at home he's either sacked out in his bed or curled up on the couch next to me. 
It's more about the dog's temperament than the living arrangement UNTIL IT COMES TO CLIMATE CONTROL.  I made a point to choose a pup with a low energy level and a non-clingy temperament.  I made this choice because I work full time.   I have cared for dogs with separation anxiety and didn't want to do that again.  The fact that we have a yard to play in makes my life easier but he really doesn't give a rat's behind. 
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
The OP did not say what his dogs were like except that he had 2 and they were big. I gave him a solution for climate control - a daycare boarding kennel. No clue what his cost would be in his area. If he doesn't choose to do that, I have no idea what effective summer measures he could take.

Also, in some climates, short haired dogs will need reliable heat in the winter.
 
Azuca said:
... I also do work and would need to leave the dogs in the van during the day. Any suggestions for temperature control, soundproofing, and generally living with dogs in a city? Is it possible?

Just a couple of thoughts:

Lots of cities now have ordinances against leaving pets in vehicles.  You need to check that out.  Even if not, animal welfare laws allow animal control to break into vehicles if THEY think an animal is in distress.  There are busy bodies out there that will call if they know there is an animal alone in a vehicle.  At minimum have your cell phone number prominently displayed with a note to call about your dogs.  Might save you a busted window and lots of $$$$$ to get your dogs back.

You will need to find a way to keep your dogs quiet when you are gone.  A barking dog in a locked vehicle is a sure way to have the cops called (or your companies security).

Climate control is a must and more difficult in a vehicle.  The big difference in a small apartment is insulation and lots of power for temperature control.  How hot does your van get after sitting in the sun all day in July?  Can you hook up to shore power at work?

It's not something I would do, but it could be workable.  IMO there would be significant expenses involved.

-- Spiff
 
No one has mentioned working the night shift. The van would not get hot while the op was gone the op would be there most of the day to monitor temps. Don't know how that works for stealth or if it even matters.
 
gcal said:
No one has mentioned working the night shift. The van would not get hot while the op was gone the op would be there most of the day to monitor temps. Don't know how that works for stealth or if it even matters.

Nice one. ^^ You also get the added bonus of night shift positions tending to be harder to fill, so the employer will be more inclined to give some leeway.
 
mayble said:
So to be clear, you feel that dogs belong in the country and not in an urban environment.  I'm sure you are aware that not everyone shares that opinion.  You may not be aware that not all dogs need to "constantly run".
As I pointed out, the challenge of climate control is the key difference.
That is my opinion.  Any working breed dog deserves to have room to run.  My opinion.  Others might say it is a fact~~~

Climate control is a huge factor.  That is not just my opinion, but law in just about every place in this country.  I do not see an inexpensive solution. 

Again I do not want to start a fight.
 
ok I will weigh in. I don't want my dog locked in a vehicle for hours on end. why you ask? because I don't want myself locked in a vehicle for hours on end. plain and simple. sometimes when traveling long distances we are both in the vehicle for hours, but we are both there. I just couldn't leave my dog locked in any confined space. but that's me. highdesertranger
 
Canine said:
It is good to have empathy and understanding for those around us even if we disagree.

If only we could each grasp this, how much better our lives and the lives of those we touch would be.
Bob
 
Most dogs do need room to run and exercise, some breeds more than others. They need it for physical and mental health. This does not mean being turned loose unsupervised to chase livestock. This means daily offleash time to play and explore and stretch their legs. There is no way that we are in shape to run with our poodle mix on a leash. Back east, these spaces are harder to find. We are lucky in that we are currently behind a mall with a big empty parking lot in the early a.m. We have an empty grassy lot next to our campground and the kids have a fenced yard. We also have a public dog park, but it is a drive.These work because he is small and cute and does not scare people and he gets along with other dogs. Larger and more aggressive dogs may be a problem.

BTW, about half the time that I try to use autofill, this tablet jumps back to random places in the original message and adds the word whereever it pleases. I get tired of fixing it. It only happens on this site. No one can figure out how to make it stop, so sometimes that message gets corrupted.
 
Newfoundlands and Greyhounds are two superb examples of a large breed that is capable of working a lot, yet is still able to be a couch potato. That doesn't make sense to me, but I've seen it time and time again. You can't do that with all of them, though, as some are too energetic.

Border Collies, known for their high energy and high drive, generally speaking do need more exercise, but not all. Some are couch potatoes. Some drive/herd cattle like old people shop. What is more important is the individual. Instead of making a decision on what is best for a dog based on its size or breed or simply because it is a dog and leaving it at that, I look at the dog's characteristics as a whole and make a decision from there.

Some working dogs aren't used for what they were bred for and some aren't allowed to room to run at all. Labs are a working dog and generally speaking need more exercise, but that exercise doesn't have to come from running. Some Labs as service dogs for the blind don't run because some owners aren't able to provide enough supervision so their dogs can be safe. Those Labs aren't doing what they were bred to do. They aren't fulfilling their calling, yet they are still having a fulfilling life despite that life being almost completely devoid of being able to stretch their legs by getting room to run. One doesn't need to provide service dog level training to provide enough "work" for a dog to be mentally and physically happy.

Comparing people directly to dogs is like comparing apples to oranges. Just because I want or think I should have something doesn't mean my dog should be treated the same way. Sometimes it does mean to treat the dog exactly the same way. What is good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.

There was a guy whose horse had a medical problem. I can't remember the problem, but the vet said to feed the horse a measured amount of vinegar once per day. It may have been mixed 50/50. That cured the horse's malady. The owner of the horse was so impressed, he figured that what was good for his horse, would be good for him.

The owner began drinking a proportionate dose of the vinegar his horse was getting. (I'm gagging writing about this.) The owner didn't gain any benefits from the concoction; however, he lost all of his teeth. Every single one rotted out due to the acidic vinegar.

I'm a person who can do well in enclosed spaces. I get out a lot, but don't get bent out of shape if I'm holed up alone for several hours a day. Not everyone is like that. I have a friend that hates sleeping in the overhead sleeping area of his slide in camper because, "It's like sleeping in a coffin." I have zero problems with being in that enclosed space. If I had a choice, I wouldn't force him to sleep in a small space when he had the option of sleeping in a more open layout like in a pull camper. As for me, close the curtains and shut me in; I'm more happy that way.

My dog is with me so often that I need to make time for her to be away from me. She needs to keep practicing how be able to be alone so she doesn't develop separation anxiety during those uncommon times when she must be alone.

Using a one size fits all approach is a last resort for me. Analyzing the situation as whole and applying critical thinking takes more work, but the results are worth it.

If your dog is with you more often than not, that is a very good thing. Leaving your dog alone for a little longer than it should be isn't terribly harmful. In our urban society, we need to accommodate unfair circumstance. We need to minimize the negative impact until we can improve our situations. Dogs are social, energetic creatures by and large, and we need to give them the time and exercise they need. Tons of people don't and the shelters are full of dogs exactly because those dogs aren't given enough proper interaction and/or exercise.

Out of most the comments here, I can't disagree entirely with anyone. Given the right context, most of the comments in this thread are correct and helpful. Lots of good input here.
 

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