Spots in Flagstaff....

[toilfreelife]

Like some insight into cooler places around Flagstaff to stealth camp. 

I Know they don't allow vehicle camping, but that's every place in america, just about, now. I don't answer the door when the knock comes, usually vandalizing my van into ad nauseum over the years with dings. They always just end up tiring and going away.   

Takes some guts to just remain silent and ignore them, but am done with being subjected to their sickening browbeating and indignant behavior toward me when I did open.  It's a choice everyone of us has to make and where we come from inside about this issue. 

Sorry to be negative but the truth regarding this kind of thing is so unbearably loud and obnoxiously disgusting I just can't ignore the pink elephant in the room anymore vis-a-vis the inhumanity of this overall society regarding certain people just trying to stay alive.

 

[lenny flank]

If you get knocks that often, then you may need to work on your stealth skills a bit more.

 

[John61CT]

Law of Attraction at play.

Don't assume malicious intent, accept we all have things to learn from each other and assume even if others are critical, it's coming from a desire to help.

Many people vehicle camp in cities and rarely if ever are disturbed.

 

[Minivanmotoman]

Camping in Coconino Forest which is approx. 5 miles into town, very reasonable distance. A1 mountain road, Walnut Canyon, Marshall lake, are three areas with dispersed camping. There are others as well.
This avoids the knock and gets you 14 days of peace at which time you move 25 miles after picking up fresh supplies.
That is the only way to avoid the knock, issues, etc...
And keep a clean rig and camp.

 

[lenny flank]

Many people vehicle camp in cities and rarely if ever are disturbed.

In three years of urban camping I have had one cop knock, and that was friendly (someone had reported "someone breaking into a car" and the cops were checking if I was OK.)

If someone is getting lots of knocks, it means they are attracting attention to themselves......

 

[John61CT]

By definition, yes, but may not be vehicle presentation.

Could be either choosing inappropriate spots, not following standard procedure / timing guidelines, or just tightly enforced jurisdictions.

I'm waiting to hear of places deploying live FLIR thermal imaging in police cruisers, always on at night as they drive around.

Or even bounty hunting programs.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

. . . 
I'm waiting to hear of places deploying live FLIR thermal imaging in police cruisers, always on at night as they drive around . . .
Or even bounty hunting programs.

Unless there is some other more critical use, I don't see FLIR being the 'go to' solution.  NO PARKING signs are cheap relative to FLIR.

I'm interested to know what you mean by 'bounty hunting programs'.

 

[John61CT]

I'm talking about places really cracking down in the future, on people violating the local "no sleeping in vehicles" ordinances, regardless of signage.

As you drive down a street at 3am, thermal imaging would easily show them. Just like automatic plate scanners now in use, records time & location in motion or parked, beeps at any flagged numbers for stolen cars / repo targets etc.

Could easily be done with stationary cams too, getting very common, now also with face recognition and AI-driven predictive "Minority Report" pre-crime policing.

Bounty hunting: jurisdiction pays a cash reward for informants calling in violator locations. Equipment needed as above will be cheap enough pro's could make a living doing it systematically.

See current news about high school kids making hundreds of dollars after school retrieving those shared bird scooters.

Fines enforced by parking boots or towing would make such systems profitable to the jurisdiction not a cost center.

 

[toilfreelife]

And keep a clean rig and camp.

Thank u for that, great resource. And sometime it's just the right thing to park around town (exhausted,etc.) So, like I said, I never answer the door, and they go away within 5 minutes. Don't have to deal with their nonsense or browbeating. It has worked for years. Ty again, Rich

ps, by the way, are you in that area for the next few months?

 

[lenny flank]

About the FLIR thingie---really, I just don't think we're that much of a priority for them. They have lots better things to do with their time.

 

[toilfreelife]

In three years of urban camping I have had one cop knock, and that was friendly (someone had reported "someone breaking into a car" and the cops were checking if I was OK.)

If someone is getting lots of knocks, it means they are attracting attention to themselves......

Your assumptions are (no free speech here).   I'm happy for your fortune re knocks. Having on and off lived in my van since i've been 18, in my 60's now, I think i have a tad more experience than you.  When I mean a lot it's over that period. But you can't go deeper in your mind re this issue apparently (not trying to hurt your feelings).  To blame it on innocent van dwellers, which it is in fact , in chief, a far and wide government policy to force people to pay for lodging everywhere in this country if they could, which in turn dictates to the cops to emanate all kinds of nonsense to keep them in a state of panic, is horrific. (gosh, i hope that isn't too political, against policy here). Have you ever had cops smashing their flashlights on your van (leaving vandalism); jumping up and down on the bumper; and putting things in the key holes to scare you out?  Without being political or disrespectful in anyway, I just find the "quick and dirty blame the victim thing from nomads" incomprehensible. I hope I could share that without this post being banned by monitors. 

I just don't live in endless self projecting and denying fairy land about this issue. If you respond, let's let this go because the monitors will ban due to politics, respect issues, or calling anyone''s opinion wrong or bad, not nice or hurtful. Rich

Ps, My 'work looking (and being)' van is a brand new, well maintained and always polished vehicle with no windows; I always dress nice, don't do drugs or alcohol or smoke; or dump any garbage including poop or pee anywhere near the van or where I am sleeping.   Zero excuse exists for the "knocks" , what's really going on,  their desire to treat people as second class citizens because they aren't contributing (in this way) to their tax base and because all the prejudice and ignorance around vehicle dwellers from the majority.  Ok, didn't mean to go on much further, Rich

 

[toilfreelife]

By definition, yes, but may not be vehicle presentation.

Could be either choosing inappropriate spots, not following standard procedure / timing guidelines, or just tightly enforced jurisdictions.

I'm waiting to hear of places deploying live FLIR thermal imaging in police cruisers, always on at night as they drive around.

Or even bounty hunting programs.

John, i've been doing this for 40 years. inappropriate spots is any spot according to a cop. no matter how innocuous, free of signs, consideratation shown up the ing ang by the dweller, etc., etc..  I'd love to open the door for cops if I new they were human beings and were only concerned about real location problems or about my welfare or others. That's simply not my experience in the slightest. 

When you own a home do you need to be concerned about endless changing "procedure, timing guidelines or tightly enforced jurisdictions? No. When you get home you can relax and not have to live in terror all night in fear of being approached, by in my humble opinion and experience, very unstable people with a badge and a gun doing whatever they want with you in the dead of night without witnesses. 

Wow, think about what you said, thermal imaging. That's how far they will go to stamp out people who can't or refuse to pay for oever night lodging.  To me, it's irrelevant. I will simply never open the door again until I see a Sea change in this society re this topic.  The cops will simply have to illegally break in or get a warrant. Even in this climate of gov./societal insanity re this issue, I don't see that happening.   And if it ever did, I have tons of legal experience to take it all the way up to the supreme court---that is if I could get enough defense fund and some attorney help from the nomad populace. So far on this board, all I see is naivete and quickness to blame a pure victim.  That wasn't meant as political, just trying to share an honest overview of our stealth camping situation at present. Rich

ps, flr imaging is a clear invasion of privacy in homes, re court decision, so if courts have determined a vehicle is a persons residence, then it should legal apply the same to it.

 

[toilfreelife]

I'm talking about places really cracking down in the future, on people violating the local "no sleeping in vehicles" ordinances, regardless of signage.

As you drive down a street at 3am, thermal imaging would easily show them. Just like automatic plate scanners now in use, records time & location in motion or parked, beeps at any flagged numbers for stolen cars / repo targets etc.

Yep, you're right. What I don't like about all this talk is that it sinks in me and starts me to feeling paranoid. I don't want to go through life that way. So hopefully, and I pray, I will die before it gets to this level of Orwell 1984. And it will, if we don't have a major uprising in this country around all the privacy invasion and humanity crushing.  And that doesn't take a bloody revolution. It takes people willing to go to jail to scream the truth, as they see it, in a very public way to the rest and directly to the government. That used to be the case in the past versus civil rights and other issues. Now, standing for good, publicly, seems to not even be in our consciousness as a possibility. Rich

 

[rvwandering]

I have deleted some of the posts that involved back and forth arguing. 
 Please read over the rules if you have any questions - https://vanlivingforum.com/showthread.php?tid=6554

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Where angles fear to tread . . . 

I just find the "quick and dirty blame the victim thing from nomads" incomprehensible.
. . . Zero excuse exists for the "knocks" , what's really going on,  their desire to treat people as second class citizens because they aren't contributing . . . 

Maybe I can supply some perspective as I live a little over half the year in a S&B.  We used to have a number of overnight 'visitors' a year parking by the park up the street until some a$$h0le dumped his black tank down the storm sewer.  That episode cost $16,000 to clean up and NO PARKING 2AM to 6AM signs were up within 2 weeks citywide.  And you can be sure the cops became very aggressive 'knocking on doors'.

The problem is you could be a candidate for sainthood or on several sexual offender lists, but I don't know and it is time consuming and expensive to find out.  You're trying to hide makes you suspicious.  Since you don't live in the neighborhood, you don't know the reason for the police response.

 . . . When you own a home do you need to be concerned about endless changing "procedure, timing guidelines or tightly enforced jurisdictions? No. When you get home you can relax and not have to live in terror all night in fear of being approached, by in my humble opinion and experience, very unstable people with a badge and a gun doing whatever they want with you in the dead of night without witnesses. 

The 'endless changing procedure, timing guidelines or tightly enforced jurisdictions' has nothing to do with home ownership but you endlessly changing jurisdictions, each with their own cultures, traditions, ideas of community and safety.  I have my own procedures, guidelines, and enforcement to contend with but since my house doesn't move I get ample warning of changes and as a member of the community a chance to comment.

Cops want to go home at end of shift to their families and a he!! a lot more cops get shot checking out cars than vandwellers get shot by cops, so I try to go out of my way to make their job a little less stressful.

IMO, city 'stealth' camping is just going to get more restrictive.  You're just going to have to deal with it.

 

[John61CT]

About the FLIR thingie---really, I just don't think we're that much of a priority for them. They have lots better things to do with their time.

Yes, for now, and likely forever in most places.

But downtown SF and Manhattan one day, Silicon Valley and ritzy neighborhoods, Beverly Hills IMO sooner rather than later.

I'm not optimistic about our wealth inequality and housing crises getting resolved by fair and rational means anytime soon.

 

[lenny flank]

Alas, the crackdown on urban campers is largely our own fault. In every story about it, people are pretty clear about their reasons for objecting to our presence: we dump our shit in their lawns (literally) and strew trash all over the place, and generally make a nuisance of ourselves.

Sadly, though, it is always just a handful of dickheads who cause all the trouble for the rest of us.

 

[John61CT]

Yes, and as the "movement" continues to expand, conflicts increase, and the S&B citizens in wealthier jurisdictions will ensure their men in blue push us out to the less-tony areas.

One day there may even be official "vehicle dwelling reservations" for us out in land areas no one wants, as we did/do with native americans.

As I suppose some trailer parks function, in the few areas where they haven't gone all upscale and expensive.

 

[DLTooley]

I've seen the infrared imaging thing done for homeless camps, a black helicopter followed by police and lots of homeless out on the street. That was Olympia, Washington 2011 as I recall. I doubt it would work with an insulated van in a moderate climate.

The welfare check 'for your benefit' is just a story, they are checking you out, no more no less. That's not reason to act negatively though, just do the same for them.

 

[John61CT]

I doubt it would work with an insulated van in a moderate climate.

Dream on

Most dwellers have no insulation, but even in a reefer truck, insulation just slows heat transfer, nothing stops it.

Even cheap "consumer grade" IR cameras, like those used for energy efficiency audits are sensitive enough.

Gummint units can highlight just a few degrees' difference.

But I'm not saying get all paranoid, for the next decade or two, only wealthy communities will get that aggressive.

Unless maybe another real depression hits