Replacing my auxilary battery

caseyc · Mar 11, 2013

I only had my 2nd auxilary battery installed less than a year ago. But I'm pretty sure I gave it an early death due to a combination of the battery being too small for my needs, and overloading the battery with too many electronics drawing power.   On the way to my last camping trip, while driving and using the fridge, stereo and other items, I noticed a bad smell coming out of the aux battery underneath my driver seat.  It smelled like rotten eggs, and the battery was heating up.  Ever since then, the battery cannot keep a charge anymore and is constantly tripping the fuse box.   I got so disappointed that today, I took my 1995 Ford E150 van to a van conversion shop and ordered a completely new auxilary battery setup.  They will be installing a much, much larger battery in a separate compartment underneath the van floor and getting rid of my current nearly dead underpowered battery.  Plus they will add a larger 2,000 watt inverter to replace my current 1,000 watt inverter.  Even better, they will also add solar panels on the roof to keep the new battery topped off while the van is parked and soaking up the sun.   This will all cost a couple thousand dollars or more, I'm guessing, but I know they will do a first rate job.  So what's the moral of this story, if any?  Start off with a larger battery than you think you need, so you don't need to upgrade and pay more later!  Oh well, lesson learned.

ccbreder · Mar 12, 2013

Flooded cell batteries need maintenance.  It does sound as your battery overcharged. Flooded cell batteries need maintenance.

cleanheart · Mar 12, 2013

Good to know for those of us just starting out. Bob told me the golf batteries are the best. That's what I'll be getting. Better to go bigger!

caseyc · Mar 12, 2013

This is the current underpowered battery installed underneath my driver side seat.  This is the same battery that is probably dead: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Stinger-SPV44-Series-660-Amp-Battery/dp/B001HBZ2V8" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Stinger-SPV44-Series-660-Amp-Battery/dp/B001HBZ2V8</a>  This battery was installed by a car stereo shop, and at the time I only had a stereo with 10" bass subwoofer and Sony PS3 station installed.  Later on I also added a Dometic fridge which really required excessively more power than the battery can handle. That's why I'm starting over with a new and improved auxillary battery setup.  I requested the van conversion shop to order me the largest possible battery that will fit underneath the van in a separate housing, plus a larger inverter to go with it.  I think I will also add a more powerful alternator, is this a good idea?  Will a more powerful alternator improve things? Part of my problem has been the simple fact that I don't drive the van enough to sufficiently charge the auxillary battery, hence the voltage meter kept reading "LO" which is around 10.5 or less.  That's why I'm also having solar panels installed that will top off the new larger battery when the van is parked for days at a time.  Hopefully this will improve things the next time around. I really need this more powerful battery because I can't stand not being able to use my flat screen television and playing Mortal Kombat on my Sony PS3, haha!

psytechguy · Mar 12, 2013

If you're going to run things like refrigerators, TV's, computers, etc. you need deep cycle batteries, not a starter battery or battery designed for car stereo systems. They're all different types and optimized to do different things. Here's a simple explanation: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question219.htm

caseyc · Mar 12, 2013

Thanks, yes, it will be a large deep cycle battery. Plus the inverter will be the better technology (pure sine wave?).  This place I'm going to is a professional shop that specializes in doing custom van conversions and modifications, they've done many such modifications.  I also asked them to replace the alternator with a stronger model, plus stronger cables to go with the stronger alternator.  Geez, so many things, haha!

wrcsixeight · Mar 12, 2013

Your old battery was not adequate for the task at a capacity 20 amp hours. That battery was not designed to do what you asked it to do. It was also sealed, and if you smelled it while driving, then it was being overcharged, and this kills AGM or gel batteries nearly instantly. Batteries and the wiring to them dictate how much current they alternator feeds them.  While a huge rated alternator  and oversized cabling can get a very depleted battery up to 80% a bit faster, it will not help that last 20%.  One capable of 2/3 it rated output at engine idle speed is more important than the maximum rating, as that is achievable only in a laboratory, when cold, at high rpm, with devices capable of asking for that much juice, and cabling that can flow it. Ask for your old alternator back to keep as a spare. Did you tell them to mount an AGM battery?   The Biggest battery is an 8D, and they weigh 150 lbs. Most 8d's are flooded, and need to have their water checked every so often. Without an access hatch in floor, can you imagine having to remove and lower a 150 lb battery, or even one half that weight to check the water level?   Sounds like you handed this conversion company a signed check.  I hope they are honest, and capable, and back up their work. Also a 1000 watt inverter is more than enough for the loads you listed.  Pure sine wave is better for electronics, but getting a 2K watt PSW inverter for what you list is the very definition of overkill.  Do you plan on running a tablesaw or something?

caseyc · Mar 12, 2013

Hi wrcsixeight, Wow, if that's the largest battery available, then I'm pretty sure it won't be a 150 pound monster, haha!  I actually won't know exactly what battery will be installed until they call me next week when the parts arrive.  I specified to the rep the various items that I have that require power, so I'm pretty confident the appropriate battery will be ordered.  I'm fairly certain I won't be doing any regular maintenance to the battery seeing that it will be housed in a separate compartment underneath the van just behind the driver side seat. The same rep also told me my current battery is underpowered and inappropriate for my power needs.  I was the one asking for a 2,000 watt inverter, even though I'm guessing I won't be using it to full capacity.  However, if or when I decide to use a microwave oven, I should be able to with the much larger battery and inverter, would you say?  This shop is honest, I would say, as they've done other work for me a few times prior.  As for the alternator, the same van conversion shop will be taking my van to an auto shop that specializes in servicing trucks and large vehicles.  That's a good idea to keep the original alternator as a backup. Casey

wrcsixeight · Mar 12, 2013

'Fairly certain' you will not be doing maintenance on something that does require maintenance? Do you not see an issue here? I would not mount a flooded battery under the vehicle unless I could access the cell caps from above.  I hope they are putting in an AGM battery for you if it is to be inaccessible.  I would hope they made a point of conferring with you on this. The solar, every day, will be bringing the batteries up into the mid 14's. Even if they were not discharged the night before, and do not need mid 14's. Flooded batteries use water in the mid 14's. I seriously reduced the lifespan of my current set of flooded batteries by not checking the water level early enough, and letting the very tops of the plates go dry, and I have an access hatch for checking the level. take aim at foot, shoot.

caseyc · Mar 12, 2013

Hi wrcsixeight, You got me worried there, so I just now finished talking to the manager of the van conversion shop.  The manager says it will be an AGM battery, not a flood battery, and no water maintenance will be required.  Whew!!

He also said it will be a "Group 27 battery with 105 amp hours" and the battery will give at least 2x the power versus my current Stinger underpowered battery.  I have no idea what Group 27 battery means, is this good?  The manager also has a phone call in to the Ford dealer to find out exactly which more powerful alternator model is available for my particular van, and I gave him my VIN number to research this.  They will also be installing a more powerful alternator along with the appropriate cables. Thanks! Casey

wrcsixeight · Mar 12, 2013

I have 3 group 27's as my flooded batteries. Mine are ~12.75 x 6.5 x 9.25  inches high.  One in the engine compartment to start engine, and 2 below the floor behind the driver seat for the house. The 2 Crown house batteries weigh 62 pounds each and are rated at 115 amp hours.  The engine battery is a wally world Everstart at 52 lbs yet still rated at 115a/h AGM batteries are generally a little heavier for the same size, yet rated a little lighter on the amp hours. This gives about 52 amp hours to play with since taking below 50% is much harder on the battery. I could get by on one healthy group 27 battery now.  I have 2 that I only guesterrate at 40% left of original capacity, but 200 watts of solar to feed them. A single group 27 is inadequate to feed a 2k watt inverter for very long to power a 1500 watt microwave. I'd guess 90 seconds before the low voltage alarm on the inverter sounds and that is starting with a full charge.  These kind of loads are very detrimental to battery life.

caseyc · Mar 13, 2013

Hi Wrcsixeight, I'm wondering, if you had to start over again, would you get new batteries that don't require water maintenance?  That sounds like a lot of work. I'm hoping my new battery will sufficiently power my Dometic fridge for maybe 1 or 2 hours when needed, plus power a 19" television and BlueRay DVD player, a Sony PS3 station, and a 10" bass subwoofer with stereo.  Of course, I'm sure I won't have all those devices on at the same time.  I'm guessing the fridge takes the most power, so if I have the fridge on, I probably won't have anything else on, except maybe the stereo. As for a microwave, I just like entertaining myself with the thought of installing one.  Realistically, it probably won't happen.  I do need at least enough power for a kettle to boil water, and to power a coffee maker.  I need my coffee and hot water, haha!   As for a 2,000 watt inverter, you can't believe all the time I've spent at stores checking the label underneath the appliance to make sure it doesn't exceed the 1,000 watt limit of my current inverter.  I never used to have to consider wattage until I started using appliances in my van!  That's why I want to be able to use an appliance that goes over 1,000 watts if needed. By the way, I found this interesting article about batteries.  The article was so detailed, my head is still spinning! http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm Cheers, Casey

wrcsixeight · Mar 13, 2013

I have considered AGM batteries, but at twice the price....... I watered my house batteries yesterday.  It is not that big a deal as I can access them from above, but forgetting has consequences. What type of dometic fridge do you have? compressor or absorption(propane). The propane fridges run on 12 volts use about 8 to 12 amp hours per hour, My compressor fridge uses under 1 amp hour per hour. I personally would never consider using battery power to heat water, nor to make coffee.  Kettles and coffee makers belong in a stick and brick home connected to the grid, not a campervan.  A french press or espresso maker

makes excellent coffee without using electricity, and my propane stove can heat water just as fast and easy as an electric kettle, without using battery power.  And it is not just Battery power these devices will consume, but overall battery life too as they are huge loads on the battery. 80+ amps minimum at 12vdc. Peukert's law  basically says the higher rate of discharge, the less overall power the battery has to give. A single group 27 battery, even an AGM, will struggle powering a coffee maker at 1200 watts, or an electric kettle at 1500. I doubt that an single group 27 battery will be able to power an electric coffee maker in the morning for the required 10 minutes, after a night powering other devices. If you insist on electrically made coffee, have your Converter shop install 3 group 27 AGM batteries at ~600+$ along with your 2k watt inverter to power them, or start and rev the engine while running the inverter, or get a generator. A huge inverter to power smaller loads is much less efficient than a smaller inverter.  All Your electronics together could likely get away with a 300 watt pure sine wave inverter.  It is your resistive heating appliances like a kettle and electric coffee maker that will be in the 1000 watt+ range, and it is unlikely these need pure sine wave. Since batteries are rated in amp hours in terms of capacity, and most appliances are listed in watts, converting them can help in figuring out how long a battery could power devices volts x amps = watts. Watts are watts, AC or DC. 1500 watts divided by 12.4 battery volts= 120 amps.  Without factoring in peukert( which cannot be discounted) nor inverter inefficiency, a single group 27 battery could provide 1500 watts for less than a half hour before dropping well below 50%. Far more likely is the battery voltage will drop low enough to trigger the low voltage alarm on the inverter within 15 minutes, and that is starting with a fully charged and healthy battery. Do this every day for a week, and then next month you will be back asking why your battery does not " take a charge anymore", despite your solar, despite your upgraded alternator, despite your expensive AGM battery. Wind and sun's battery FAQ is the short version, the quick read. http://www.batteryfaq.org/ http://batteryuniversity.com/

caseyc · Mar 14, 2013

Thanks for your detailed reply.  Here's the fridge I got from Camping World.  It's not propane powered.  I plug the sucker into the inverter for power:  http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/dometic-portable-refrigerator-freezer/49355 Are you saying that a 2,000 watt inverter would be bad versus say a 1,500 watt inverter, given my needs?  I just want to be able to have a larger inverter installed even if I don't use its full potential ... just in case

As for boiling water, I bought a "coffee percolator" from Sears and found a model that uses either 500 watts or 700 watts, as I don't remember exactly.  The percolator is either this exact model, or something very similar.  I don't use it for making coffee, I use it for boiling water for making hot tea.  I simply take out the accessories inside the device for making coffee, and only use water to boil. Here's the link: http://www.sears.com/presto-6-cup-s...47000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4 The coffee maker I'm using is a small model that only makes 2 cups I think, and though I don't remember the exact wattage, it's something like 600 or 700 watts.  Actually, I've been lately using the above percolator for boiling water, and then I use a French press device I got from Target for $20 for making the coffee.  Coffee seems to taste a little different using a French press device, but overall, it's fine especially when camping out. EDIT: I think I have this coffee maker that only uses 600 watts: http://www.electrical-forensics.com/Coffeemakers/CoffeeMakers.html You are absolutely correct that using a propane powered stove boils water way faster (in several minutes), and I do have a couple Coleman single burner propane powered stoves that I use for boiling water in a large kettle, as well as for cooking food in a frying pan.  I open the 2 middle doors of my conversion van when using my propane powered stove for boiling water or other light cooking.  I don't do any "real" cooking of food in the van as I normally eat out at local cafes and restaurants. Well I'm starting to get disappointed about the whole concept of battery usage in the van, haha!  I guess I have to resign myself to the fact that I will need to replace the battery every couple years due to age and abuse!

wrcsixeight · Mar 14, 2013

That Dometic can run on 12 volts DC. No reason to plug it into an inverter, in fact you probably shouldn't not just for the fact that doing so wastes a good amount of battery power, but just for the electronic compressor controller which is doing a whole bunch of converting/inverting on its own.  It is one of the most efficient fridges available designed for use with 12/24 volts DC, that can also just be plugged into the grid when available. A roof exhaust fan goes a long way for cooking inside with the doors closed.  I usually close my doors so I can see the flame height better, and not have the wind pushing it elsewhere. There is no point in having a 1500 watt inverter with a just single group 27 battery to feed it.   Any Single battery will protest any duration of 500+ watt loads several times a day, long enough to make coffee or boil water in a kettle, even with solar, even with an more capable alternator.  I'd be surprised if you could get 2 months of daily use  out of a battery with how you plan on treating it, and your expectations of what a single group 27 battery can store and release are way over the top. If batteries could store as much electricity as you envision, or perhaps more accurately, if resistive heating used so little energy, we would all be driving electric cars and a single solar panel could recharge them in a few hours and there would never be an energy crisis, or big oil. Quite the utopia you got going on there <img src="/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle"> I exaggerate of course, but you are expecting way too much from a single group 27 battery.  I'd expect the inverter alarm to be a constant companion on day three, and you will be making coffee and heating water the sane way, with propane, and not playing video games at night unless you drive 4+ hours a day or have 350+ watts of solar and all days worth of sun with no shadowing. Electric kettles, coffee makers and  microwaves belong only in vehicles with generators, or those with several hundred pounds of battery banks, and a roof lined with several hundred watts of solar, A hundred amp converter charger and a Mega alternator with a lifetime warranty on parts and labor. Or one with access to grid power. Unless you can afford to treat AGM batteries as disposable and can easily acquire and install one yourself in the middle of an outing.

Mouldy · Mar 14, 2013

Casey - I totally agree with 68. I totally misused a single Group 27 AGM battery and it was dead in 6 months. All I used it for was charging a cell phone, running 12V lights maybe 1.5 hours a day, charging a laptop 6 hours a week, running a 5W speaker 5 hours a day and a movie on a 22 inch TV approx once a week. The battery was also connected to 45W of solar panels by Lake Tahoe where I had sun 8 hours a day, 95% of the days. My inverter was only a 420W and it never had a problem with the TV and DVD (read 105W on the display) set up. I learned the hard way. I thought I knew about batteries, even from being on this site and boy, was I wrong! I've been reading up on this stuff for a long time and I STILL don't know jack compared to someone like 68. You either need to change your lifestyle (use more propane) or drastically upgrade your battery and solar bank. IMO, you need to change your lifestyle slightly. I would get rid of the 120V coffee maker and get a smaller inverter. I don't know about what others think, but I find a microwave to be just about useless. If you plan your meals just a little, you don't need one. Most things can have a little water added and reheated on a stove if you like to "cook in bulk". Less electricity = less hassles in my opinion. But if you must have electric things, know how to properly feed them so you save money down the road. Who wants the hassle of changing batteries every few months, not to mention the environmental impact of that! Just my 2 cents.

caseyc · Mar 14, 2013

Hi Mouldy, Wow, your battery died from what I consider light usage?!  What would you have done differently to have saved the battery do you think? Casey

Mouldy · Mar 14, 2013

Smarter usage (what time of day), and a better charge controller for the panels. It came with a cheap one that IMO doesn't work worth a damn. It was one of those Sunforce kits.

travlinman and wife · Mar 14, 2013

I have 1200 watt inverter and 1 12v deepcycle wet battery. mounted under van behind driver door. I used a small microwave to heat up food mostley oreintal food because my wife is korean. I used that battery 4 years checking watter only twice a year. I have a rooler table salvaged from the usps when I worked for them to remove the battery. I used a small dvd player dc, coumpter, cell phone charger. no solar. just the alternator charging the battery. Iguess what got me that far was we alwaya started the van when we used the microwave

caseyc · Mar 14, 2013

Hi Wrcsixeight, Just the other day, I blew the fuse for the dual 12 volt outlet receptable located on the van floor next to the driver side seat.  I had plugged in 2 portable car jumper batteries that are designed to recharge via a 12 volt outlet.  However, it was obviously a mistake trying to recharge 2 of these car jumper batteries simultaneously.  Now the entire 12 volt outlet receptable is out of commission! :-(  That's why I would be worried trying to plug the Dometic fridge into the 12 volt outlet for fear it might blow the fuse.  Any ideas?  Yes, I'm starting to see the light and agree with you that I really should save the boiling of water and coffee making for my propane power stoves versus the battery/inverter.  I've heard that obnoxiously loud beeping warning from my battery/inverter too many times! Here's a link to the battery in question that biew the 12 volt fuse. <a href="http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200395488_200395488" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200395488_200395488</a> <a href="http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/NTESearch?storeId=6970&Ntt=8+in+1+battery" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/NTESearch?storeId=6970&Ntt=8+in+1+battery</a> Casey

Replacing my auxilary battery

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