No Insulation [Snowbird Hightop Van Build]

[CarmeCoolidge]

The van I'm in now was converted by the guy who sold it to me. As such it sucks for my use case. This year I am going to commit to vanlife more and plan my own build.


The idea of no insulation started as a thought experiment to try and avoid the hassle and cost of installing insulation and the frame/walls to contain it. Now, I have convinced myself it may be the best option. Personal reasons i think insulation is dumb FOR ME AND MY BUILD:

1. Insulation is worthless by itself:
Without temperature regulation systems, insulation is just a stop gap from that heat getting in or out of your van. You'll delay it a couple hours, but you can't ever stop or reverse it without cooling/heating. I do not plan on having an AC unit but I will have a small space heater.

2. I'm lazy and cheap:
Couple hundred for the insulation, couple hundred for the wood (and that's probably being generous), possible tool rental costs, dozens of hours of research/work, huge risk of massively ducking it up.

3. Insulation (especially when done by a complete noob) can ruin a build:
the dreaded moisture causing all sorts of issues and bulldung. a problem that is far more diagnosable, treatable, and preventable without insulation. how are you going to know when moisture begins to build up in your walls? you wont. how are you going to treat it? you wont because you dont even know if it is happening. Mold, insect infestations, and rust are all much more likely because of the moisture trapped inside your walls. yes, i know about vapor barriers

4. I am a grungy snowbird:
I do not mind the bare wall look, I have lived in much worse. I could use magnets and posters to solve that issue anyways.
i don't experience bad enough cold often enough. I have only experienced it once on a bud run to denver during winter and that was by choice for toots and chuckles because i knew my current rig could handle it.
i get in and out of my van frequently as I am usually in a campground for the toilet, shower, and close vicinity to civilization.
i have my two fan vents open frequently because still air sucks.
i enjoy the sounds of my surroundings (most of the time).
those couple extra inches will help alleviate the issue of my fat butt and clumsy legs

Some questions i also need help with:
Would this make it easier or more difficult to install shelves and other types of storage?
Does the reasoning above make sense? What holes does it have or what information am I missing?
What is the meaning of life?
Would I still have the option of ceiling/wall-mounted cabinents or fixtures?

thanks for your input. hope you have a good day

 

[eDJ_]

This is how my rig is set up. No insulation. Shelving isn't that difficult but you will need to secure anything you put on those shelves when you get under way. If you choose to live where the temperature is generally 70 degrees in the months you intend to snowbird then you may only need some simple form of heat to be comfortable during unexpected cold snaps.

Keep warm bedding available or in storage in your rig so you'll have it if you should need it.

Life is whatever you make it. So you need to know what you want it to be.

There are many storage solutions. I've even seen storage hammocks that hang close to the ceiling. Consider visiting Lumber supply stores to see what they are offering for shelving. Look online too.
In the end, consider living a more minimal life so you won't need so much storage.

 

[bullfrog]

A few batton strips attached to the ribs will allow you to hang or mount removable milk crates. Using 20” x 30” yellow top totes with a 30” x 80” 3/8 plywood top makes for plenty of storage and a sleeping platform complete with a memory foam mattress. A small chair/stool/ladder makes a table or place to sit. Add a bucket, water jug and a vented heater or small stove with a really good sleeping bag and small tent you can shower/sleep in for good weather and you are good to go. Luxuries are solar, Ecoflow Delta 2 and a 12 volt compressor fridge.

 

[jacqueg]

The van I'm in now was converted by the guy who sold it to me. As such it sucks for my use case. This year I am going to commit to vanlife more and plan my own build.


The idea of no insulation started as a thought experiment to try and avoid the hassle and cost of installing insulation and the frame/walls to contain it. Now, I have convinced myself it may be the best option. Personal reasons i think insulation is dumb FOR ME AND MY BUILD:

1. Insulation is worthless by itself:
Without temperature regulation systems, insulation is just a stop gap from that heat getting in or out of your van. You'll delay it a couple hours, but you can't ever stop or reverse it without cooling/heating. I do not plan on having an AC unit but I will have a small space heater.

2. I'm lazy and cheap:
Couple hundred for the insulation, couple hundred for the wood (and that's probably being generous), possible tool rental costs, dozens of hours of research/work, huge risk of massively ducking it up.

3. Insulation (especially when done by a complete noob) can ruin a build:
the dreaded moisture causing all sorts of issues and bulldung. a problem that is far more diagnosable, treatable, and preventable without insulation. how are you going to know when moisture begins to build up in your walls? you wont. how are you going to treat it? you wont because you dont even know if it is happening. Mold, insect infestations, and rust are all much more likely because of the moisture trapped inside your walls. yes, i know about vapor barriers

4. I am a grungy snowbird:
I do not mind the bare wall look, I have lived in much worse. I could use magnets and posters to solve that issue anyways.
i don't experience bad enough cold often enough. I have only experienced it once on a bud run to denver during winter and that was by choice for toots and chuckles because i knew my current rig could handle it.
i get in and out of my van frequently as I am usually in a campground for the toilet, shower, and close vicinity to civilization.
i have my two fan vents open frequently because still air sucks.
i enjoy the sounds of my surroundings (most of the time).
those couple extra inches will help alleviate the issue of my fat butt and clumsy legs

Some questions i also need help with:
Would this make it easier or more difficult to install shelves and other types of storage?
Does the reasoning above make sense? What holes does it have or what information am I missing?
What is the meaning of life?
Would I still have the option of ceiling/wall-mounted cabinents or fixtures?

thanks for your input. hope you have a good day

I didn't do insulation either. I've been fine for the past three years with just bare metal. I don't camp when/where it snows. And I never worry about hidden pockets of moisture building up in a wall. I do get condensation at night at times, but I always leave a window cracked, and it dissipates shortly after sunrise.

For storage I have a couple of thrift store dressers and a cubby unit designed to hold milk crates. These are strapped in. I could attach them to the walls, but I don't. Because the walls are not straight, I have space behind the dressers and it is very handy for storage of lesser used and oddly shaped items. No it isn't house beautiful, but - I live in a cargo van, after all. (I do have pretty bedding though, at least I think it is pretty.)

My bed and a small bedside unit which accommodates my lovable loo are attached to the van ribs with nutserts.

My passenger seat has been removed, and in its place is a box that holds my 12v fridge and my battery/inverter/DC charger.

(PS - abnorm does all my building. Highly recommended.)

 

[Frood]

I think it all depends on your plans too. If you are going to be staying where there is snow and ice you will spend significantly more on heating. If you are going to be somewhere with 100+ degree temperatures in the summer you may not be able to touch the inside walls of your van and you could possibly bake cookies without an oven if you aren't aware of where you park. Heck, sometimes my car's AC can't keep up with the heat while driving around when it gets over 105 or so.

So, be aware of what you will be doing and where you will be going. If you follow comfortable temperatures then you should be okay. If you are going to be spending any time in extreme environments, you may wish to reconsider your stance.

 

[CarmeCoolidge]

This is how my rig is set up. No insulation. Shelving isn't that difficult but you will need to secure anything you put on those shelves when you get under way. If you choose to live where the temperature is generally 70 degrees in the months you intend to snowbird then you may only need some simple form of heat to be comfortable during unexpected cold snaps.

Keep warm bedding available or in storage in your rig so you'll have it if you should need it.

There are many storage solutions. I've even seen storage hammocks that hang close to the ceiling.

Thanks for the response! I'm thinking of making the van my bedroom and and office and doing everything else outside of it. This is to keep my expensive/hard to replace electronics and items inside. I have an idea to try and emulate an L desk by using cabinets and a section that is just the countertop on a hinge so i can move back to the bed.

I always have extra blankets and will never not carry my trusty little space heater, good advice!
The storage hammocks seem like a cool and easy solution for hanging storage! They'll feel a lot roomier compared to cabinets, too (and less risk of bonking my head!)

A few batton strips attached to the ribs will allow you to hang or mount removable milk crates.

I'm not knowledgeable of the carpentry/building terms. Batton is the frame-like structure that you build into the van that you can then build off of, correct? I'll need to look into the best ways of putting those up. If I can get them in there sturdily, that would open up the build options significantly. Thanks for your input!

I didn't do insulation either. I've been fine for the past three years with just bare metal. I don't camp when/where it snows. And I never worry about hidden pockets of moisture building up in a wall. I do get condensation at night at times, but I always leave a window cracked, and it dissipates shortly after sunrise.

For storage I have a couple of thrift store dressers and a cubby unit designed to hold milk crates. These are strapped in. I could attach them to the walls, but I don't. Because the walls are not straight, I have space behind the dressers and it is very handy for storage of lesser used and oddly shaped items. No it isn't house beautiful, but - I live in a cargo van, after all. (I do have pretty bedding though, at least I think it is pretty.)

Sounds exactly like I was expecting! Good to hear it works well for you. Good idea to save hassle by not anchoring them to the walls, I know of many cumbersome objects that I need to have with me but hardly ever use that would be perfect for the space behind the dressers! Thanks for your perspective!

I think it all depends on your plans too. If you are going to be staying where there is snow and ice you will spend significantly more on heating. If you are going to be somewhere with 100+ degree temperatures in the summer you may not be able to touch the inside walls of your van and you could possibly bake cookies without an oven if you aren't aware of where you park. Heck, sometimes my car's AC can't keep up with the heat while driving around when it gets over 105 or so.

So, be aware of what you will be doing and where you will be going. If you follow comfortable temperatures then you should be okay. If you are going to be spending any time in extreme environments, you may wish to reconsider your stance.

That's the plan! I'm glad I have some experience under my belt because I know I can pretty easily avoid most of the extreme temperatures. Thank you

 

[afblangley]

Thanks for the response! I'm thinking of making the van my bedroom and and office and doing everything else outside of it. This is to keep my expensive/hard to replace electronics and items inside.

If you are going to be in cold climates, keep in mind electronic gadgets and batteries prefer to be kept above freezing 24/7/365. Earlier this winter, a frozen water line broke my faucet. Fortunately, I had removed my power station, so it didn't suffer the same fate.

This challenge isn't a function of insulation, it's about the heating source. A diesel or petrol heater is the best (cheap, simple, effective) solution for most of us. Right now I'm in Chicago and the heater is running full time on its lowest setting, whether I'm in the van or not. This is feasible because it uses very little fuel and very little power.

 

[RearViewMirror]

We "personally" can't do what we do without insulation. Every single nook and cranny is filled with Havelock wool. This prevents the dreaded moisture problem that you bring up. Behind every wall that we could insulate there is Havelock wool. It is, as you bring up, expensive. But here is the way I look at it. We don't have to chase weather quite as much. So over time, you will be spending more on fuel just to get out of weather that is unfavorable. I'm not discounting what you want to do and it may very well work out for "you". Just not "us".

We don't worry when it gets well below freezing because the diesel heater keeps it warm and runs very little since there is little heat loss through the walls and ceiling of the van. Same thing goes when it gets warm outside. We have a 48V A/C on top that runs off of 12V so I don't have to run the inverter like you would on a 110 A/C. With the 10.5KWh Lithium Ion battery we have in the van, we can run the A/C upwards of 11-12 hrs without draining the battery down to 30%. Obviously we "try" to avoid extremely hot temps if we can. And we do chase weather "some". But I don't worry about cold as much as I do when it gets extremely hot. We carry our dog with us and if we have to leave him inside the van to run to the store etc... We don't have to worry about him in hot or cold weather.

All of our water lines are inside the van which also necessitates insulation. I never have to worry about our lines freezing up inside the van when it is extremely cold. The diesel heater keeps the van at whatever temp we have it set at. Once it reaches that temp? It cycles very little. The only line that is run outside of the van is from our sink, under the van, to the grey water tank. It is insulated very well but as you mention, it will eventually get to whatever the outside temp is. But the solution to that issue is simple. If it is going to be extremely cold, we just poor RV antifreeze down the sink, use the macerator pump to pump the antifreeze through the line, and then poor some RV antifreeze down the shower in the wet bath. The grey water tank has a heating pad though I don't trust it when it gets extremely cold. We have a cassette toilet that is removed from a door on the outside of the van. I have about 10" of Havelock wool stuffed inside of that compartment with a 1" foam board cut to fit in front of the insulation. Then the insulation of the outside door itself. The lowest temp that we have had the van in so far has been -10F with -40F windchill. Even then, the diesel heater had little issue keeping the inside of the van warm. But that is extreme and we try to avoid that as much as possible. But skiing in Colorado? Sometimes it just is what it is.

So the only statement that I'll make is "insulation is worthless by itself". It is not "worthless if you use it in conjunction with heating and cooling needs". It allows to stay places that you wouldn't be able to stay. Not saying that you would want to stay where we stay. We can just do it with the way our van is set up. It really just depends on how and where you plan to use your van.

 

[flying kurbmaster]

Insulate your van, insulation is good without a heat source or a cooling source. It will keep you cooler dryer and warmer On it’s own. It will also help you keep the sound out helping with your sleep, and your energy while driving. It will keep you sane, anyone who tells you differently has been living without it too long.

 

[CarmeCoolidge]

If you are going to be in cold climates, keep in mind electronic gadgets and batteries prefer to be kept above freezing 24/7/365. Earlier this winter, a frozen water line broke my faucet. Fortunately, I had removed my power station, so it didn't suffer the same fate.

This challenge isn't a function of insulation, it's about the heating source. A diesel or petrol heater is the best (cheap, simple, effective) solution for most of us. Right now I'm in Chicago and the heater is running full time on its lowest setting, whether I'm in the van or not. This is feasible because it uses very little fuel and very little power.

Yes good to keep in mind. I enjoy moving around but I'll definitely need to develop the planning skills and experience with the weather. The internet makes mobile research much easier, thankfully

Behind every wall that we could insulate there is Havelock wool. It is, as you bring up, expensive. But here is the way I look at it. We don't have to chase weather quite as much. So over time, you will be spending more on fuel just to get out of weather that is unfavorable. I'm not discounting what you want to do and it may very well work out for "you". Just not "us".

So the only statement that I'll make is "insulation is worthless by itself". It is not "worthless if you use it in conjunction with heating and cooling needs". It allows to stay places that you wouldn't be able to stay. Not saying that you would want to stay where we stay. We can just do it with the way our van is set up. It really just depends on how and where you plan to use your van.

My biggest issue is that insulation necessitates wooden framing and walls as well as heating and/or cooling. The temperature control systems then require more power which isn't an issue with my campground hopping plan, but it is an issue for cost and installation/operation risk. Also more stuff to maintain and take care of. I don't want to run gas because I'm a huge stoner and that would end in a predictable headline.

I'm trying to find my minimum viable setup. I don't want a house that I have to take care of. I just need a bed and a desk and I can do the rest outside of the van. Much more comfortable and it gets me talking to my neighbors more. I want to travel often, that's one of the main draws of van life for me. I am not a fan of nature in complete absence of civilization (boondocking). I enjoy learning about and experiencing other places and how people live in them. I will never make much money so I am cutting costs while also traveling so I can put as much as I can into investments. That way I can retire before I die. I can live while I'm able to enjoy it and still be comfortable when I'm old. My biggest cost is campground fees, but once I get a couple continuous months in the van I can start volunteer hosting for a spot and perks. Most of the applications I would use temp control for could be done by the right clothing, probably better since I'm not in the van all the time.

Instead of gaining income I want to shed cost to the bare minimum while still enjoying the few things I want to do, luckily a lot of my hobbies and interests can be done for free or for minimal cost.
I'm avoiding the rat race like the plague.

I do like the look of your rig and I'm glad to hear that it works well for you. Thank you for input

Insulate your van, insulation is good without a heat source or a cooling source. It will keep you cooler dryer and warmer On it’s own. It will also help you keep the sound out helping with your sleep, and your energy while driving. It will keep you sane, anyone who tells you differently has been living without it too long.

I think it has some nice benefits, but not nearly enough in my situation to justify all the cost, effort, time, and risk. The sounds don't bother me and I can wear earmuffs to bed if need be. Vans are noisy marching down the road but I find it kinda comforting. I can relate to something big and grumbly very easily! Thanks for your thought

 

[bullfrog]

Be aware things change. Much like you I had a very minimal setup when I was younger. I got really sick for several weeks and a wonderful young lady took care of me and eventually got married, bought a motor home! Lol!!!

 

[RearViewMirror]

My biggest issue is that insulation necessitates wooden framing and walls as well as heating and/or cooling. The temperature control systems then require more power which isn't an issue with my campground hopping plan, but it is an issue for cost and installation/operation risk. Also more stuff to maintain and take care of. I don't want to run gas because I'm a huge stoner and that would end in a predictable headline.

I'm trying to find my minimum viable setup. I don't want a house that I have to take care of. I just need a bed and a desk and I can do the rest outside of the van. Much more comfortable and it gets me talking to my neighbors more. I want to travel often, that's one of the main draws of van life for me. I am not a fan of nature in complete absence of civilization (boondocking). I enjoy learning about and experiencing other places and how people live in them. I will never make much money so I am cutting costs while also traveling so I can put as much as I can into investments. That way I can retire before I die. I can live while I'm able to enjoy it and still be comfortable when I'm old. My biggest cost is campground fees, but once I get a couple continuous months in the van I can start volunteer hosting for a spot and perks. Most of the applications I would use temp control for could be done by the right clothing, probably better since I'm not in the van all the time.

Instead of gaining income I want to shed cost to the bare minimum while still enjoying the few things I want to do, luckily a lot of my hobbies and interests can be done for free or for minimal cost.
I'm avoiding the rat race like the plague.

I do like the look of your rig and I'm glad to hear that it works well for you. Thank you for input

It sounds like you have a good plan laid out.

I certainly understand trying to find a minimum viable setup that works for you. If you can make it work then I say go for it! Everyone of us has different ideas about how we want our vans set up and there is no "one correct way". The way we have ours set up works of us but may not work for you nor would you need to spend that much time, money, and effort with the plan you have laid out.

My wife and I are minimalist at heart so it works great for us living in a small space. There are only so many items we need to carry so that puts a limit and a value on the things we buy. We only buy the things we actually need for the activities we are going to do. Even though we have a lot of money invested in this van, we are saving so much more than when we actually lived in a "sticks and bricks".

We also have no propane since everything is powered off of our battery. And being in Colorado? Yeah... We are midnight tokers also. We do have a Jetboil camp stove and a Rocket Stove for cooking outside. The Rocket Stove is great because it serves a double purpose. We can cook on it and it also makes a nice little campfire without the worry of it getting out of control. And it costs nothing for fuel since you can find wood in "most" areas that you camp. The Jetboil is just a quick and easy way to make a quick meal and the fuel canisters are cheap.

Sorry.... Got off topic there. But it sounds like you have a great plan and if your plans change? You can always add insulation and whatever else you need in the van as time goes on. You are right with adding more items to the van like heating, cooling, and any other electronics. Anything can and will break at some point in time. So there is a valid point to be made for having as little as you actually need in the van. The less stuff you have the less there is to go wrong.

I wish you good luck and safety in your travels.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Even if you choose not to insulate, it's not a bad idea to attach reflectix to the walls and then cover that with roll vinyl that you can get at upholstery shops or large hobby/craft stores.

Just use self-drilling screws and fender washers to attach to the ribs and roof bows.

Minimal cost, minimal effort. Can be removed or peeled back in a matter of minutes for inspection, upgrades, cleaning, etc.

 

[maki2]

You will want to put (at the very least effort and expense) some thin indoor outdoor, nonwoven, synthetic carpet on the ceiling interior to keep condensation from dripping down onto you and your belongings. It will also help deaden sound. Word of caution metal roofs and walls get very hot so you have to use adhesives rated for high temperatures such as 3M super 90. (3M Super 70 fails to hold in high temps) Or use the Weld Bond brush on traditional Yellow Contact cement, the VOC stuff. Water based contact cement requires at least one absorbent material to cure and synthetic carpet does not absorb water well enough for quick curing.
How to stick it up from the YouTube channel sailrite

 

[tx2sturgis]

I prefer to cut and install small aluminum 'ribs' that hold the headliner and wall liners firmly in place. These can be the 1/2 x 1/2 or 1/4 x 1/4 aluminum angle stock, then cut or ground and drilled at each end to match up with the existing roof bows and side wall ribs, and held in place with the self-drilling screws.

I have also used sheets of FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic) cut into 4 inch wide strips and screwed to the existing roof bows, these provide good support to hold rectangles of foam boards for roof insulation.

The vinyl or other chosen liner material can be attached to these ribs with small self drilling lath screws or situated above the ribs and let gravity and compression hold the material in place.

Adhesives can be messy to work with and they still let go eventually.

 

[CarmeCoolidge]

We also have no propane since everything is powered off of our battery. And being in Colorado? Yeah... We are midnight tokers also. We do have a Jetboil camp stove and a Rocket Stove for cooking outside. The Rocket Stove is great because it serves a double purpose. We can cook on it and it also makes a nice little campfire without the worry of it getting out of control. And it costs nothing for fuel since you can find wood in "most" areas that you camp. The Jetboil is just a quick and easy way to make a quick meal and the fuel canisters are cheap.

Cooking will be the first thing I work on when in the van. I'm still quite young so I haven't ever really cooked for myself. I lived on my own for a couple years, but I wouldn't really call what I did there cooking! Currently I have a basic camp burner. Do you have trouble finding the specialized fuel cans for the jetboil? I've heard great things about it.

You will want to put (at the very least effort and expense) some thin indoor outdoor, nonwoven, synthetic carpet on the ceiling interior to keep condensation from dripping down onto you and your belongings.

I don't think I want that carpeting but it's good to keep in mind. I plan on having a lot of ventilation for comfort, but I think it could solve the condensation issue as well. At the minimum I'd have a single RV ceiling fan and the front windows cracked (I'll have rain/wind guards and insect nets). Even with the fan off, that should move a lot of the condensation out. What do you think?

Even if you choose not to insulate, it's not a bad idea to attach reflectix to the walls and then cover that with roll vinyl that you can get at upholstery shops or large hobby/craft stores.

I might take that vinyl idea. I think the reflectix would need a space between the van walls and the reflectix, wouldn't it? It's a radiant heat barrier, not insulation.

 

[tx2sturgis]

Yes, the reflectix has very minimal value as insulation. But it's easy and relatively cheap to use, lightweight, moisture resistant, adds a small bit of physical cushioning under the vinyl and might provide a bit of radiant barrier action, depending on the install. All of this is compared to the 'zero insulation' you have planned.

Later on, if you decide to add insulation, you can again make use of the reflectix as a radiant barrier and/or window covers.

 

[RearViewMirror]

Cooking will be the first thing I work on when in the van. I'm still quite young so I haven't ever really cooked for myself. I lived on my own for a couple years, but I wouldn't really call what I did there cooking! Currently I have a basic camp burner. Do you have trouble finding the specialized fuel cans for the jetboil? I've heard great things about it.

No trouble at all. We are a member of the coop with REI and they always have them in stock. "Most" outdoor stores have them in stock also.

 

[WayOutWest]

I vote for no insulation. That's how I did my build. My reasoning was that I do not live the van full-time, only use it on road trips, and I don't generally travel when it's very cold or very hot. And even if I did live in the van full-time, I'd be seeking out places to stay, around the year, that avoided either very hot or very cold.

Something many people may not realize, is that if you don't use insulation, depending on what type of van you have, you might end up saving quite a bit of space that can be used for storage. I have a Ford Transit, and each of the walls has large 4 inch deep areas, which since they are not used for insulation, can now be used for storage. I covered the van walls with 1/4 inch plywood, using as a template, the black polystyrene panels that were originally in the van when I bought it, as it had been used as a work van.

On one side of the van, the side where my single size bed is that runs parallel to the van, I have build 2 large 4 inch deep "medicine cabinets" which store quite a lot of small items. On the other side of the van, I have protruding cabinets. The cabinets stick out only about 7 to 8 inches, because they're able to incorporate the 4 inches behind them, inside the interior wall of the van, as additional space, over most of their extent. Hence, I actually have 12 inch deep cabinets, but they only stick out 8 inches into the cargo area, the rest being inside the wall. The result is more open space in the van, as the cabinets do not protrude as much, as if I had built cabinets that were 12 inches deep from the interior surface of the van wall, as opposed to 12 inches from 4 inches INSIDE the van wall.

 

[Zerpersande]

I vote for no insulation. That's how I did my build. My reasoning was that I do not live the van full-time, only use it on road trips, and I don't generally travel when it's very cold or very hot.

My reasoning is that I don’t like the feeling of riding in a tin can.

Something many people may not realize, is that if you don't use insulation, depending on what type of van you have, you might end up saving quite a bit of space that can be used for storage.

With my NV200 I’m pulling the panels, adding foam sound deadening, then insulation, then some aluminized bubble wrap as a vapor barrier, then using 4-way stretch carpeting on all remaining surfaces.